Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[southernhybrid]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide...

You are referring to me, of course. I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

...have ever watched lots of people die...

No, I've never watched anybody die although I've known some people who were dying. I made a point of encouraging them and in some cases spent time with them to help them cope.

...or have cared for terminally ill people who have suffered horrendously at the end of life.

I did do some care for a man who was paralyzed from the chest down. Although I wasn't sure about his being a dying man, I discovered soon after that he died from a heart attack.

Anyway, your comments are fairly typical of how euthanasia proponents characterize those who oppose their philosophy. We are stereotyped as callous and living in ivory towers, but at least for me that isn't true at all. I think it's fair to say that I've seen and experienced more suffering than many euthanasia proponents have. I've noticed that euthanasia proponents tend to rely on what they imagine about the sick and the dying while I rely on real-life cases. I think reality trumps fiction on this issue.

And by the way, one such euthanasia proponent on this board was unable to offer any real-life examples as evidence for his position, and when I pointed out to him that I am a real-life example to support my position, all he could do was curse. I've seen that kind of mentality from the euthanasia enthusiasts many times, and that's why I don't trust them.

And, let me add, that even when assisted suicide is an option, very few people take that option.

That's correct, or at least it is from my own experiences with the dying. I don't recall anybody who ever went through with assisted suicide. It appears that when people say they want it they actually are temporarily feeling hopeless and in time get over it.

Perhaps our survival mechanism is that strong, so that even when are facing death, we grasp for those few extra weeks, days or hours of life.

SH, you're more perceptive than what I've been giving you credit for! Yes, people tend to seek to live on even under miserable circumstances.

I think I've already mentioned that I've read that just having the option of assisted suicide gives a lot of terminally ill folks comfort. They may not take that option, but they like knowing they can end things if their suffering becomes unbearable. It's the kindest thing we can offer a terminally ill person, imo.

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Actually, there are a few people on this thread who seem to be at least a bit skeptical about whether one should have the right to receive a RX that allows them to end their life, or as I see it, end their suffering. Nobody is going to make anyone choose that option. In fact, I've read stories where the families tried to convince the person not to choose that option, but they eventually realized it was not their decision to make.

The reason I consider it kind to offer the option of assisted suicide is because when one has a very short life expectancy, in the case of the US laws, it has to be 6 months or less, it's cruel imo, to make them suffer until death occurs naturally, if their choice is to end the suffering.

When our pets are nearing the end of life and they are suffering, most of us choose euthanasia for them. I know it will be very difficult for me to choose that option for one of my dogs. She is the most loving little ball of fur I've ever known and it will break my heart when the end comes. But, if she is suffering and appears to be close to death, I will have to put aside my personal feelings and do what's best for her. In other words, end her suffering. It would be selfish of me to allow her suffering to continue when she is close to death. So, why would we deny a human being the same option?

Most pet lovers think of their dogs or cats as family members, yet we usually know when it would be cruel to force them to continue to live, as they are reaching the end of life. I think it's kind to offer humans the same "choice", although of course, the individual, unlike the dog or cat, has to be the one to "choose" to have a quick and easy death. if you're not a pet lover, it may be hard for you to understand what I've just written, but to lots of us, especially us older adults, our pets are little friends who give us companionship and love. But, we love them enough to do what's best for them when they reach the point where their suffering can no longer be alleviated.

Hospice care is pretty good in the best of circumstances, but even hospice can't always relieve suffering, as much as the individual needs. If I'm terminally ill, I might choose hospice instead of suicide. Sadly, hospice in the US has become more about making a profit instead of providing the best care for the individual. But, if I choose hospice care that shouldn't mean that other people should be forced to make the same choice as me. Some people don't suffer that much as death nears. Other people suffer so much that death is a blessing, to use a common Southern term. We're all going to die, but it's hard for me to understand why anyone would refuse to give someone else the choice of ending their life as they are approaching the end and the suffering leaves them without a bit of quality. I'm not telling anyone else what they must do, so what gives you or anyone else the right to tell me what I must do when it comes to the end of my life?

Allowing me to choose voluntary euthanasia, gives me the right to have autonomy over my body. Being forced to continue to live until I die naturally takes that right away from me. I know some older adults who have built up a stash of medications that will take them out if they reach the point when life no longer has any meaning, or value, due to suffering and the loss of independence. To me, it makes more sense to be given the option of having a doctor write the Rx. that will ease them out without any problems.

It's very hard for me to understand why any rational person would object to allowing someone else to have the option of assisted suicide when they are nearing the end of life and they are still cognitively intact, but if we haven't convinced those who don't see this as the humane thing to do by now, there's probably not much more we can say that will be convincing.

 

[TomC]

I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

Let me ask you this.

Does anybody have the right to prevent physician assisted death?

Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're assuming that the balance is towards good in life.

Yes. I prefer life over death.

With a young person it probably is.

I'd say anybody!

When death is approaching it usually isn't.

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that it's a quality of care issue.

They provided my father with plenty of pain control--it kept the pain down but left him unable to make memories, the only thing that was real was what was happening in the room. And pain control does nothing for the patient who can't do more than simply lie there.

The only reasonably good death I've seen is my uncle--a heart attack took him way before his time. On the flip side, I know those who have begged for death. I've known those that considered suicide for medical reasons, I've known those who have actually done so.

 

[Elixir]

Yes. I prefer life over death.

You say that now.
Load you up with the right combination of illness and injury, and I can guarantee you’d change your mind.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide...

You are referring to me, of course. I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

It's not a bandwagon.

...have ever watched lots of people die...

No, I've never watched anybody die although I've known some people who were dying. I made a point of encouraging them and in some cases spent time with them to help them cope.

And did spending time with them remove their suffering?!

...or have cared for terminally ill people who have suffered horrendously at the end of life.

I did do some care for a man who was paralyzed from the chest down. Although I wasn't sure about his being a dying man, I discovered soon after that he died from a heart attack.

Anyway, your comments are fairly typical of how euthanasia proponents characterize those who oppose their philosophy. We are stereotyped as callous and living in ivory towers, but at least for me that isn't true at all. I think it's fair to say that I've seen and experienced more suffering than many euthanasia proponents have. I've noticed that euthanasia proponents tend to rely on what they imagine about the sick and the dying while I rely on real-life cases. I think reality trumps fiction on this issue.

You realize one of the people you're arguing against provided home care?

And by the way, one such euthanasia proponent on this board was unable to offer any real-life examples as evidence for his position, and when I pointed out to him that I am a real-life example to support my position, all he could do was curse. I've seen that kind of mentality from the euthanasia enthusiasts many times, and that's why I don't trust them.

And, let me add, that even when assisted suicide is an option, very few people take that option.

That's correct, or at least it is from my own experiences with the dying. I don't recall anybody who ever went through with assisted suicide. It appears that when people say they want it they actually are temporarily feeling hopeless and in time get over it.

The person I know who begged for death did so for months.

Perhaps our survival mechanism is that strong, so that even when are facing death, we grasp for those few extra weeks, days or hours of life.

SH, you're more perceptive than what I've been giving you credit for! Yes, people tend to seek to live on even under miserable circumstances.

I think I've already mentioned that I've read that just having the option of assisted suicide gives a lot of terminally ill folks comfort. They may not take that option, but they like knowing they can end things if their suffering becomes unbearable. It's the kindest thing we can offer a terminally ill person, imo.

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Yes. It's much better than Mother Teresa style help torture.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

Let me ask you this.

Ask away! I'm about the only person on this board honest enough to give straight answers to questions.

Does anybody have the right to prevent physician assisted death?

I must answer with a qualified no. I don't believe any of us have rights. However, some people definitely have the authority to outlaw physician assisted suicide. And many do.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yes. I prefer life over death.

You say that now.
Load you up with the right combination of illness and injury, and I can guarantee you’d change your mind.

In 1977 I was severely injured in an accident and was permanently disabled. Since then I've lived not only with those injuries but with illness related to my injuries. I briefly considered physician assisted suicide, but my brother talked me out of it. So your guarantee is bogus. You're wrong. Why keep robotically parroting the lie that those who are ill and/or injured want what you say they want?

 

[Elixir]

Dude keeps talking euthanasia proponents, as if someone here is trying to sell death.
That’s bullshit.
Another thing dude has never seen: the cleanup after someone blows their own brains out.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Dude keeps talking euthanasia proponents, as if someone here is trying to sell death.

I understand you're doling it out for free.

That’s bullshit.

Here comes the cursing from the kind, compassionate euthanasia proponents. You know--the ones who keep saying they respect people's decisions.

Another thing dude has never seen: the cleanup after someone blows their own brains out.

I don't need to see that. That's what I'm trying to prevent.

 

[Rhea]

There is a change in end of life and palliative care that is relevant to the death with dignity proponents. It used to be that doctors would do whatever it took to prolong life. It was their goal. Their promise.

But they have started to realize that such a rule is often cruel. And now they work under the premise that people don’t want life-extending treatments automatically. Many want palliative care instead. This is the advent of the DNR. The right to refuse life saving care and welcome death.

And it is true of some circumstances that even palliative care can be cruel to some people.

UnkSol makes the odd claim that he is

I'm about the only person on this board honest enough to give straight answers to questions.

I’m not sure why he thinks that someone who worked for decades in elder care would not give honest answers. Or someone who cared for someone who begged for death. (8 years later I am ashamed that I did not help her) Does he think that if another human holds a different opinion that they are inherently dishonest?

But UnkSol - not everyone is the same. Some people genuinely do NOT want to prolong their life, or even wait for it to naturally end. Some diseases are so cruel that they choose otherwise. You claim that you would not. I believe you. Because I have seen some people with a disease want to end their life, and other people with the same disease want to continue with it.

It’s not a set of criteria that anyone has the hew to. It’s not forced. It’s not required.
But for those who WANT to end their own suffering, the cruelty of denying it and forcing them to suffer seems like a monstrous act.

 

[bilby]

I'm about the only person on this board honest enough to give straight answers to questions.

Seriously mate, get over yourself.

You are not all that.

 

[bilby]

Here comes the cursing

Oh, no! Not <shudder> cursing.

 

[bilby]

It used to be that doctors would do whatever it took to prolong life. It was their goal. Their promise.

But they have started to realize that such a rule is often cruel.

Indeed it is.

There are three rules of behaviour, in increasing order of morality:

1) Treat others less powerful than you however you like, while submitting to those more powerful than you (might makes right);
2) Treat others as you’d like to be treated;
3) Treat others as they’d like to be treated.

Lots of people are still stuck at one of the first two levels. The medical imperative to prolong life lives on level two.

 

[southernhybrid]

There is a change in end of life and palliative care that is relevant to the death with dignity proponents. It used to be that doctors would do whatever it took to prolong life. It was their goal. Their promise.

But they have started to realize that such a rule is often cruel. And now they work under the premise that people don’t want life-extending treatments automatically. Many want palliative care instead. This is the advent of the DNR. The right to refuse life saving care and welcome death.

And it is true of some circumstances that even palliative care can be cruel to some people.

UnkSol makes the odd claim that he is

I'm about the only person on this board honest enough to give straight answers to questions.

I’m not sure why he thinks that someone who worked for decades in elder care would not give honest answers. Or someone who cared for someone who begged for death. (8 years later I am ashamed that I did not help her) Does he think that if another human holds a different opinion that they are inherently dishonest?

But UnkSol - not everyone is the same. Some people genuinely do NOT want to prolong their life, or even wait for it to naturally end. Some diseases are so cruel that they choose otherwise. You claim that you would not. I believe you. Because I have seen some people with a disease want to end their life, and other people with the same disease want to continue with it.

It’s not a set of criteria that anyone has the hew to. It’s not forced. It’s not required.
But for those who WANT to end their own suffering, the cruelty of denying it and forcing them to suffer seems like a monstrous act.

I'm glad you brought up how doctors used to try to prolong life in cruel ways. When I started working as a home health nurse in the late 70s, I had quite a few patients who had late stage dementia but were being kept alive by being fed with G-tubes. The most common way that one dies with Alzheimers is dehydration due to the inability to swallow. Despite what lay people might think, this is a rather, dare I say, pleasant way to die. I've watched one person who was a patient of mine for years, die this way. She never had any build of fluids, shortness of breath or what is commonly known as the "death rattle". Instead, she was comfortable, although of course confused due to her dementia. Hospice sent in some musicians to play for her, which she seemed to enjoy. She was a retired music professor and most people with dementia seem to enjoy music even during the final stages of the disease.

Back in the old days, patients lingered on for years, usually with indwelling urinary catheters along with the feeding tubes. Sometimes they had decubitus ulcers, aka bed sores. Some of these sores were infected and painful. Most, but not all received good care in rural areas that had large families who were willing to care for them. But, what was the point of that? The families thought they were doing the right thing by keeping their loved ones alive by using artificial means. It was the medical community who believed it was their duty to keep someone alive regardless of the lack of quality of life. I'm glad that things hav changed, although, unless someone has a living will or a family member with a durable medical power of attorney, a G-tube might still be inserted. The patient I described in the last paragraph almost had a G-tube inserted, but her brother found her living will and it clearly stated that she didn't want any tube feeding.

Nursing homes used to be full of such people, lingering on for years by being tube fed. Who in their right mind, would want to live like that?

Who in their right mind would object to allowing a terminally ill person who is suffering, the option of taking a Rx that will ease them out of their misery? I honestly don't understand the objection to this option for the terminally ill. Only a person in their right mind has this option so there is no need to worry about this being abused, especially when the person has to ask twice, sometimes at least 15 days apart to have the Rx. And, it's the person who administers the drugs. The physician only writes the Rx.

 

[Elixir]

I don't need to see that. That's what I'm trying to prevent.

If you think forbidding assisted suicide is preventing such scenes then, yes, you DO need to see what it looks like when the person you denied physician assistance takes the quickest way out.

”I don’t need to see that” is you being the dishonest chickenshit you accuse others of being. Calling yourself the only honest conversant here is really REALLY low.

Who in their right mind would object to allowing a terminally ill person who is suffering, the option of taking a Rx that will ease them out of their misery?

I think you found them, though I can’t vouch for the “right mind” part.

 

[Rhea]

Another thing dude has never seen: the cleanup after someone blows their own brains out.

I don't need to see that. That's what I'm trying to prevent.

I deeply regret preventing that. Deeply.
My mother told us all that she did NOT want to linger in a nursing home. But when the time came, a variety of decisions by her children in not wanting to rush things caused us to prevent her from going to a state where she could die by physician assist.

When we passed that rubicon without acting, and moved to assisted care, she begged me daily to bring a razor blade to slit her wrists. I did not. Now, 8 years later, she can no longer speak, she can only look at me and cry. And neither of us can do anything to stop the cruel CRUEL progress of her disease.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I'm about the only person on this board honest enough to give straight answers to questions.

Seriously mate, get over yourself.

You are not all that.

And posts under a pseudonym.

 

[Marvin Edwards]

... For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

Ideally, we will all live a good life followed by a good death. If suffering is temporary, then we should take steps to prevent suicide. If suffering is permanent (or as detailed in the Queensland law), then suicide, assisted or not, should be allowed.

I had a disc issue in my lower back that was pretty intolerable, to the point that, if I had a gun in the house I might have used it. Getting up out of bed was excruciating. I had to sit until the pain subsided, then stand until the pain subsided, etc. I saw the orthopedic surgeon, who banged on my back a few times and then sent me down to the Pain clinic. I was ready to cry because I was hoping an operation would cure me. The Pain clinic assigned me to a physical therapist. She tried to get me to move, but it was so painful that she walked me back to the Pain clinic and told them to up my meds so she could do her job. Recovery was slow and spanned several months. But eventually the pain diminished to that thing where you feel a pain down your leg, then that went away too.

I learned to walk regularly to keep my back supple and pain free. And I've enjoyed my life since then. So, I'm glad I didn't keep a gun in the house.

Mass shootings puzzle me, because they often end in suicide. It seems the shooters have a problem getting things in the right order.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Who in their right mind would object to allowing a terminally ill person who is suffering, the option of taking a Rx that will ease them out of their misery? I honestly don't understand the objection to this option for the terminally ill. Only a person in their right mind has this option so there is no need to worry about this being abused, especially when the person has to ask twice, sometimes at least 15 days apart to have the Rx. And, it's the person who administers the drugs. The physician only writes the Rx.

You must not dodge the punishment God laid upon you for your improper behavior!

 

[Unknown Soldier]

... For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

Ideally, we will all live a good life followed by a good death. If suffering is temporary, then we should take steps to prevent suicide. If suffering is permanent (or as detailed in the Queensland law), then suicide, assisted or not, should be allowed.

I had a disc issue in my lower back that was pretty intolerable, to the point that, if I had a gun in the house I might have used it. Getting up out of bed was excruciating. I had to sit until the pain subsided, then stand until the pain subsided, etc. I saw the orthopedic surgeon, who banged on my back a few times and then sent me down to the Pain clinic. I was ready to cry because I was hoping an operation would cure me. The Pain clinic assigned me to a physical therapist. She tried to get me to move, but it was so painful that she walked me back to the Pain clinic and told them to up my meds so she could do her job. Recovery was slow and spanned several months. But eventually the pain diminished to that thing where you feel a pain down your leg, then that went away too.

I learned to walk regularly to keep my back supple and pain free. And I've enjoyed my life since then. So, I'm glad I didn't keep a gun in the house.

Mass shootings puzzle me, because they often end in suicide. It seems the shooters have a problem getting things in the right order.

Well, that sounds like a happy ending to a story that argues against suicide. Problems in life are mostly temporary, but death is permanent. Bill Ward, the former drummer for Black Sabbath, has said that he became so ill from his drug abuse that he contemplated suicide. He got over his illness. Today he says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think there's a lot of truth in what Bill says.