Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[abaddon]

... there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

... I was talking about what really happens. From people clinging to loved ones to people who wish Dad would just die instead of blowing their inheritance on expensive health care.

Humans are messy.

You're mixing up two different issues. There's 1) if the right exists and who has it, and 2) the complications of implementing a right in a messy, complex world.

The right is relatively easy to sort regardless how complex the world is. Think of the right to pursue happiness. Do we ALL have it? It's a right that's basic to being human so it does not apply only to some humans. So the answer's YES.

Does the messiness of the human world complicate it? It doesn't complicate the right itself, it complicates how people will work it out in their lives. There'll be conflicts but they don't touch whether we all have the right or not. So the answer's NO.

It's the same basic deal with the "right to die". Is it specific to a group? If not then how does it not apply to everyone? Does the messiness of the world matter to whether people have the right? No it doesn't.

The OP writes as if people have the right only if they're not valued -- as if having the right depends on whether or not a doctor will assist in the suicide. But, like with the right to pursue happiness, the right doesn't necessarily oblige others to give what the person wants. When is it right to oblige the person's right to die? Probably most people will say if the person's going to die a much more miserable death if he's not helped. An heir who's eager for Dad to die might complicate the implementation of the right, but that has nothing to do with whether the person has the right or not.

 

[steve_bank]

Nobody chooses to be born. To be born into a bad family situation or with genetic problems.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

That's what suicide advocates keep overlooking: the good in life. The reason suicide is such a huge mistake is because so much good is being trashed in order to trash a relatively small amount of bad.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Nobody chooses to be born. To be born into a bad family situation or with genetic problems.

Does that mean there's no right to life? Since you can't choose not to be born. That decision is made by others.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

That's what suicide advocates keep overlooking: the good in life. The reason suicide is such a huge mistake is because so much good is being trashed in order to trash a relatively small amount of bad.

That's your value judgment. And you're imposing that on others. If they feel that suicide would be the greater good for themselves, you'd be saying they're wrong and have no right to think that or act on that.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

That's what suicide advocates keep overlooking: the good in life. The reason suicide is such a huge mistake is because so much good is being trashed in order to trash a relatively small amount of bad.

That's your value judgment.

Yes! I tend to value life and see little worth in death.

And you're imposing that on others.

No! I am not and cannot impose my views on others any more than your views are imposed on others. I see some obvious bias in your post characterizing my views as "imposing" while you don't characterize your own views that way.

If they feel that suicide would be the greater good for themselves, you'd be saying they're wrong and have no right to think that or act on that.

That's my opinion on this issue. And I'm not saying that others have no right to their opinions on this issue. It looks that if anybody wants to impose opinions, it appears to be you. After all, you objected to my opinion implying I have no right to it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

That's what suicide advocates keep overlooking: the good in life. The reason suicide is such a huge mistake is because so much good is being trashed in order to trash a relatively small amount of bad.

That's your value judgment.

Yes! I tend to value life and see little worth in death.

And you're imposing that on others.

No! I am not and cannot impose my views on others any more than your views are imposed on others. I see some obvious bias in your post characterizing my views as "imposing" while you don't characterize your own views that way.

If they feel that suicide would be the greater good for themselves, you'd be saying they're wrong and have no right to think that or act on that.

That's my opinion on this issue. And I'm not saying that others have no right to their opinions on this issue. It looks that if anybody wants to impose opinions, it appears to be you. After all, you objected to my opinion implying I have no right to it.

I’m not imposing. You can have whatever opinion you want. And I beleive you can choose to live or die as you want. It aopears, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you are suggesting that others don’t have the right to choose to die. Maybe you are saying they do but you personally think that’s a waste, as is your right to have that opinion.if that’s so then I apologize.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I’m not imposing. You can have whatever opinion you want.

Thank you for that permission. Some of your friends on this thread think likewise cursing me out while claiming to honor individual "rights."

And I beleive you can choose to live or die as you want.

You believe what is wrong. I have no such choice. Nobody does.

It aopears, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you are suggesting that others don’t have the right to choose to die.

People obviously can choose to die, but it's not a right to do so.

Maybe you are saying they do but you personally think that’s a waste, as is your right to have that opinion.if that’s so then I apologize.

Again, I value human life and think it's foolish to waste it by deliberately destroying it. It's frightening to see that so many people think otherwise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

That's what suicide advocates keep overlooking: the good in life. The reason suicide is such a huge mistake is because so much good is being trashed in order to trash a relatively small amount of bad.

You're assuming that the balance is towards good in life. With a young person it probably is. When death is approaching it usually isn't.

 

[steve_bank]

Nobody chooses to be born. To be born into a bad family situation or with genetic problems.

Does that mean there's no right to life? Since you can't choose not to be born. That decision is made by others.

The only thing you can control is choosing whem and how you die.

A right to life is a moral construct. The reality like all other creatures our thin veil of morality can disappear and we resort to our genetic evolutionary survival mode.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You're assuming that the balance is towards good in life.

Yes. I prefer life over death.

With a young person it probably is.

I'd say anybody!

When death is approaching it usually isn't.

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Yes. And this difference is why the availability of assisted suicide is necessary. While nature is taking its course the suffering person may be drowning in their lung fluids and taking days/weeks/months to do it. There are many ways to die that a person may reasonably want to avoid.

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

I dunno.

Tom

I think this is the crux of the Unknown Soldier's question.

U.S. suspects that the teenager is valued and the 75yo can be euthanised on some sort of science fiction scrap heap.

I argue that we, as a society, know that the teenager's life will have value to her at a later date, if she can just persevere. We know that the stroke victim has no such potential happiness in prospect and should allow them to leave the pain behind if they so desire.

IF THEY SO DESIRE. Not at the convenience of the society, relatives or any form of political or economic expediency.

I’m not imposing. You can have whatever opinion you want.

Thank you for that permission. Some of your friends on this thread think likewise cursing me out while claiming to honor individual "rights."

And I beleive you can choose to live or die as you want.

You believe what is wrong. I have no such choice. Nobody does.

It aopears, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you are suggesting that others don’t have the right to choose to die.

People obviously can choose to die, but it's not a right to do so.

Maybe you are saying they do but you personally think that’s a waste, as is your right to have that opinion.if that’s so then I apologize.

Again, I value human life and think it's foolish to waste it by deliberately destroying it. It's frightening to see that so many people think otherwise.

I agree. But I am concerned that your sense that people are allowed to suicide because society does not value them comes from alarming and adverse personal experience.
I can't agree with that aspect of your stance.

 

[bilby]

You're assuming that the balance is towards good in life.

Yes. I prefer life over death.

...and you unthinkingly believe that literally everyone else must share your personal opinion.

[Removed]

When death is approaching it usually isn't.

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Your personal experiences aren't the be all and end all of everything, and your condescending assumption that people who advocate for the freedom to choose when to die, do not also advocate for improving care, typifies your woefully immoral position on this important issue that you appear to have zero respect for.

You have an opinion. Opinions are like arseholes; Everyone has one, and they're often full of shit.

I have a right to die at the time and in the circumstances of my choosing, as does everyone else; And if you stand in the way of my right to my own fucking life, I will drive right on over you.

Who the hell do you think you are, making pontifical pronouncements about the lives of complete strangers?

[Removed]

 

[southernhybrid]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide have ever watched lots of people die, or have cared for terminally ill people who have suffered horrendously at the end of life. And, let me add, that even when assisted suicide is an option, very few people take that option. Perhaps our survival mechanism is that strong, so that even when are facing death, we grasp for those few extra weeks, days or hours of life. I think I've already mentioned that I've read that just having the option of assisted suicide gives a lot of terminally ill folks comfort. They may not take that option, but they like knowing they can end things if their suffering becomes unbearable. It's the kindest thing we can offer a terminally ill person, imo.

 

[Elixir]

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally."

We ALL know lots of people who died naturally, if we are adults.
I bet you were not present for the death of “plenty of people”.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide...

You are referring to me, of course. I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

...have ever watched lots of people die...

No, I've never watched anybody die although I've known some people who were dying. I made a point of encouraging them and in some cases spent time with them to help them cope.

...or have cared for terminally ill people who have suffered horrendously at the end of life.

I did do some care for a man who was paralyzed from the chest down. Although I wasn't sure about his being a dying man, I discovered soon after that he died from a heart attack.

Anyway, your comments are fairly typical of how euthanasia proponents characterize those who oppose their philosophy. We are stereotyped as callous and living in ivory towers, but at least for me that isn't true at all. I think it's fair to say that I've seen and experienced more suffering than many euthanasia proponents have. I've noticed that euthanasia proponents tend to rely on what they imagine about the sick and the dying while I rely on real-life cases. I think reality trumps fiction on this issue.

And by the way, one such euthanasia proponent on this board was unable to offer any real-life examples as evidence for his position, and when I pointed out to him that I am a real-life example to support my position, all he could do was curse. I've seen that kind of mentality from the euthanasia enthusiasts many times, and that's why I don't trust them.

And, let me add, that even when assisted suicide is an option, very few people take that option.

That's correct, or at least it is from my own experiences with the dying. I don't recall anybody who ever went through with assisted suicide. It appears that when people say they want it they actually are temporarily feeling hopeless and in time get over it.

Perhaps our survival mechanism is that strong, so that even when are facing death, we grasp for those few extra weeks, days or hours of life.

SH, you're more perceptive than what I've been giving you credit for! Yes, people tend to seek to live on even under miserable circumstances.

I think I've already mentioned that I've read that just having the option of assisted suicide gives a lot of terminally ill folks comfort. They may not take that option, but they like knowing they can end things if their suffering becomes unbearable. It's the kindest thing we can offer a terminally ill person, imo.

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

 

[Elixir]

That's correct, or at least it is from my own experiences with the dying.

How reassuring from someone who has never been with a person when they died.

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Well now, you wouldn't know, would you?
If you are ever in a situation where that question might be germane, I suggest not phrasing it that way, but - YES.

 

[TomC]

SH, you're more perceptive than what I've been giving you credit for! Yes, people tend to seek to live on even under miserable circumstances.

You might want to consider that before posting things like

I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

Sohy has a ton of experience in the field.

Apparently, I have more than you do. "hopped on the suicide bandwagon" makes you look excruciatingly callous and cold.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Yes!
Yes!

Sometimes just knowing that you aren't trapped in a situation that you didn't choose is a huge relief.

It's like claustrophobia. Just knowing that you don't have to do this, because other people have whatever, makes it easier to bear the consequences of your own choices. You don't have to live because other people think you don't have a choice, due to their own whatever.

Tom

 

[Elixir]

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Yes!
Yes!

Sometimes just knowing that you aren't trapped in a situation that you didn't choose is a huge relief.

It's like claustrophobia. Just knowing that you don't have to do this, because other people have whatever, makes it easier to bear the consequences of your own choices. You don't have to live because other people think you don't have a choice, due to their own whatever.

Tom

XACTLY!!!
If a dying person asks you to do something for them in the future, agreement is almost always the right choice.