Drag Shows

[Metaphor]

"Getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is"?

That sounds like a denial of the existence of men who like being 'receivers'.

Well, yes. You are shocked that incoherent and regressive attitudes come from trans people?

As some of the long term members here know, whenever I see out-of-context quotes made into memes, my bullshit detector immediately starts pinging. It's rare to find one that accurately conveys what the speaker was saying. I am not surprised that a meme portrays a Feminist or Trans activist as saying something shocking or ridiculous, I am surprised that so many people take it at face value.

If you're interested in reading what the people in those memes were saying, here are some links:

Jacob Tobia wants to be desired

Grace Lavery finds being treated like a woman empowering as a transperson while also being committed to the struggle to eliminate sexism.

And if you want to know what Andrea Long Chu was talking about in her book, Females, here's a good place to start.

It is quite clear that the quotes do not misrepresent anything. Jacob Tobia wants to be desired. No shit. Grace Lavery finds affirmation in being the target of (he thinks) female-directed sexism at him. No shit. According to your link, Andrea thinks 'I’ll define as female any psychic operation in which the self is sacrificed to make room for the desires of another', which does not need to be addressed; it is patently ludicrous.

EDIT: The amount of regressive claptrap required in trans ideologies is nothing short of amazing, really. Do you know what a lesbian is? A non-man who is attracted to non-men. You could not make it up.

Apparently someone did.

I mean someone trying to satirise trans ideology could not make it up. Of course, people have invented the language of their own religions throughout history. Trans ideology is no different.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No one is "segregated by sex";

Of course they are - or were.

if we're talking about social identity, we're having a conversation about gender. And if we're saying "people of this category get to use this special room, but only people in that category get to do this ritual together", we're talking about social identity. How we choose to define, respond to, and exert political power over perceptions of sex is a purely cultural question, which different societies can and have devised different solutions to. Drag shows have only existed for two hundred years, they are not connected to the scientific discussion of biological sex traits except obliquely as part of our wider cultural conversation about gender.

And I do agree that transwomen are biologically female, at least in some respects. Your mind is no less a part of your body than any other part of you.

By 'mind' I assume you mean 'brain', and no. Having certain thoughts in your head does not change your sex or cause you to be the opposite sex.

So you are still ignoring studies which have identified structures in the brain that more closely resemble the sex the trans person is claiming than the sex they were assigned at birth?

What about them? Gay men have some brain structures that more closely resemble those of straight women than they do other men. Gay men are not women.

You still seem to be struggling over personal identity... and the basis of it.

My experience based on two people that I have known that suffered traumatic brain trauma is that self-identity is up to the central nervous system, and utterly out of our self conscious control. Neither of the people thought they were the opposite sex after the injury. However, their personalities changed tremendously. My reserved grandmother became a love smitten teen while a person I went to school went from wild alpha male to quiet, simple, and reserved. The original versions of these people never returned. So we have one body each and two personalities that didn't overlap.

So, if that can happen, and it has happened enough, the question becomes, why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender. We know there are some macroscopic differences between gender. We know there are psychological differences (when baselining) between gender. Why can't you make the jump to understanding that it is almost assuredly true that there are neurological portions of it to? You (and others) seem quite intent on wanting to draw a dividing line between genders, but when it comes to neurology, you suddenly become numb and disinterested in the science.

Regarding sexual attraction, we have people that have any number of fetishes... none of which anyone selected. How much of our preferences aren't remotely selected? We certainly don't choose our neuroses. We find things pleasing or unpleasing because our brain says we do. And that is all neurological. Chemical and physical reactions to stimuli we have no control over. Yet, for some reason, you think you get it all.

 

[Toni]

No one is "segregated by sex";

Of course they are - or were.

if we're talking about social identity, we're having a conversation about gender. And if we're saying "people of this category get to use this special room, but only people in that category get to do this ritual together", we're talking about social identity. How we choose to define, respond to, and exert political power over perceptions of sex is a purely cultural question, which different societies can and have devised different solutions to. Drag shows have only existed for two hundred years, they are not connected to the scientific discussion of biological sex traits except obliquely as part of our wider cultural conversation about gender.

And I do agree that transwomen are biologically female, at least in some respects. Your mind is no less a part of your body than any other part of you.

By 'mind' I assume you mean 'brain', and no. Having certain thoughts in your head does not change your sex or cause you to be the opposite sex.

So you are still ignoring studies which have identified structures in the brain that more closely resemble the sex the trans person is claiming than the sex they were assigned at birth?

What about them? Gay men have some brain structures that more closely resemble those of straight women than they do other men. Gay men are not women.

You still seem to be struggling over personal identity... and the basis of it.

My experience based on two people that I have known that suffered traumatic brain trauma is that self-identity is up to the central nervous system, and utterly out of our self conscious control. Neither of the people thought they were the opposite sex after the injury. However, their personalities changed tremendously. My reserved grandmother became a love smitten teen while a person I went to school went from wild alpha male to quiet, simple, and reserved. The original versions of these people never returned. So we have one body each and two personalities that didn't overlap.

So, if that can happen, and it has happened enough, the question becomes, why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender. We know there are some macroscopic differences between gender. We know there are psychological differences (when baselining) between gender. Why can't you make the jump to understanding that it is almost assuredly true that there are neurological portions of it to? You (and others) seem quite intent on wanting to draw a dividing line between genders, but when it comes to neurology, you suddenly become numb and disinterested in the science.

Regarding sexual attraction, we have people that have any number of fetishes... none of which anyone selected. How much of our preferences aren't remotely selected? We certainly don't choose our neuroses. We find things pleasing or unpleasing because our brain says we do. And that is all neurological. Chemical and physical reactions to stimuli we have no control over. Yet, for some reason, you think you get it all.

No one is "segregated by sex";

Of course they are - or were.

if we're talking about social identity, we're having a conversation about gender. And if we're saying "people of this category get to use this special room, but only people in that category get to do this ritual together", we're talking about social identity. How we choose to define, respond to, and exert political power over perceptions of sex is a purely cultural question, which different societies can and have devised different solutions to. Drag shows have only existed for two hundred years, they are not connected to the scientific discussion of biological sex traits except obliquely as part of our wider cultural conversation about gender.

And I do agree that transwomen are biologically female, at least in some respects. Your mind is no less a part of your body than any other part of you.

By 'mind' I assume you mean 'brain', and no. Having certain thoughts in your head does not change your sex or cause you to be the opposite sex.

So you are still ignoring studies which have identified structures in the brain that more closely resemble the sex the trans person is claiming than the sex they were assigned at birth?

What about them? Gay men have some brain structures that more closely resemble those of straight women than they do other men. Gay men are not women.

Brain structures obviously play an enormous role in how we perceive ourselves, who we are attracted to, etc. Sexual orientation, sexuality, sexual identification have basis in brain structures. Not, as you are so fond of saying: it's just thoughts in your head. It's not. It's neurobiology.

 

[Politesse]

It's weird how they want us to believe that biology is everything, and should always take precedence over social concerns and civil rights. Unless it's neuroscience, in which case biology is suddenly "just chemistry" and should be ignored.

 

[Oleg]

why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender.

This seems a bit of a straw man. That some men feel discomfort about their bodies is not really in dispute. But that discomfort does not transform them to something they are not. And a man can never know what it is to be a woman, because he is not. That’s why we see trans identified men displaying exaggerated stereotypes of women, as they have no natural basis to know.

 

[Oleg]

It's weird how they want us to believe that biology is everything, and should always take precedence over social concerns and civil rights. Unless it's neuroscience, in which case biology is suddenly "just chemistry" and should be ignored.

Good point. We can create our own reality and everyone else must accept it.

Madison Indigenous arts leader, activist revealed as white

Early in 2020, an Indigenous artist urged the owners of a new music venue in town to change its name. It was called The Winnebago, after the street on which it stands. Many Indigenous people and allies let the owners know that wasn’t the best name for a white-owned music venue. One of them was n

madison365.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender.

This seems a bit of a straw man. That some men feel discomfort about their bodies is not really in dispute.

Man, your strawman accusation has some balls to it! Accusing someone of a strawman while immediately committed a strawman fallacy of your own. I did not for a moment talk about "discomfort about their bodies". You are taking what transgender people are saying about themselves and simplifying it to what you want it to be. Reducing it to merely "discomfort". The transgender equivalent to telling a gay person they are just 'going through a phase'.

I'm talking about the neurological processes that lead to our preferences, our fears, our identity. You and others want to concentrate the discussion of gender on dangling bits, repeatedly centering on the macroscopic indicators that are generally reliable in determining how a person feels regarding their gender. You want to ignore the most important part of the body, though, the brain... and its impact on our identity.

You want to reduce the Transgender's experience to merely being about "feelings", of which we know how conservatives feel about those, instead of something much deeper. You are quite ready to disregard feelings because they have dangling bits of one kind of the other. Yet, insist on ignore neurological differences between the baseline male and female. You know that if you look into that, it becomes a lot grayer and suggests that maybe our understanding on that is much more fuzzy than once thought. Or worse yet, we aren't who we choose to be nearly as much as some would want to believe. Which would be ironic to anyone who was a Calvinist.

But that discomfort does not transform them to something they are not. And a man can never know what it is to be a woman, because he is not. That’s why we see trans identified men displaying exaggerated stereotypes of women, as they have no natural basis to know.

What makes a person think they are a male or a female? This isn't a philosophical question. It is scientific and delves into the central nervous system and how it operates. You act like the human body was intelligently designed and each brain develops exactly like all the others.

 

[Politesse]

We can create our own reality and everyone else must accept it.

Literally none of the words in my post are in your post, so I don't know why you preface yours with "good point".

 

[Oleg]

I'm talking about the neurological processes that lead to our preferences, our fears, our identity.

That doesn't change your sex. If someone believes they're a dog, are they?

What makes a person think they are a male or a female? This isn't a philosophical question. It is scientific and delves into the central nervous system and how it operates.

Whatever you think in your head, it doesn't change your biology. Do hens and roosters think themselves female or male? Does it matter? And if men who identify as women are really women, they'd exhibit the same psychological behaviors and tendencies as women. Do they?

How men's and women's brains are different

The cognitive differences between men and women

stanmed.stanford.edu

For example, men commit sexually violent crime at exponentially higher rates than women. So we'd expect trans identified men to also have a low proclivity to commit sexually violent crime if indeed they are really women. However, . . .

 

[Oleg]

"Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1363460719876835

For example, trans older adults with dementia may forget they transitioned and reidentify with their sex/gender assigned at birth or may experience ‘gender confusion.’

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1363460719876835

For example, trans older adults with dementia may forget they transitioned and reidentify with their sex/gender assigned at birth or may experience ‘gender confusion.’

This isn't exactly evidence in your favor. It implies identity can be fluid with people with brain related illness or injury. We've already established this was the case and was very much a result of neurological physical and chemical processes.

Or are you suggesting that if they also don't remember their teenage years... that never happened either?

 

[Jarhyn]

And yet Oleg, there are women who commit exponentially more crimes than, say, Politesse.

It's almost as if you cannot actually determine anything about a person by looking at those you arbitrarily lump them in with.

When will you learn that stereotypes do not inform on individuals?

 

[Oleg]

And yet Oleg, there are women who commit exponentially more crimes than, say, Politesse.

It's almost as if you cannot actually determine anything about a person by looking at those you arbitrarily lump them in with.

When will you learn that stereotypes do not inform on individuals?

The new left's abhorrence of Nature continues to amaze.

Sex discrimination: how do we tell the difference between male and female faces? - PubMed

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised. Experiments designed to explore the perceptual basis of our ability to categorise the sex of faces are reported. Subjects were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hairstyle, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.

 

[Oleg]

It implies identity can be fluid with people with brain related illness or injury.

But your biological sex isn't.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It implies identity can be fluid with people with brain related illness or injury.

But your biological sex isn't.

You mean the dangling bits again. You are obsessed with dangling bits. I get it. Dangling bits can be tantalizing, but when talking about personal IDENTITY, that involves the brain. Dangling bits provides a generalized idea as to gender identity (and sexual identity too!). But just because it works most of the time, doesn't mean it is a proof positive litmus test.

 

[Metaphor]

So, if that can happen, and it has happened enough, the question becomes, why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender.

I do not doubt some trans-identified people wish to be, or become the opposite sex.

We know there are some macroscopic differences between gender. We know there are psychological differences (when baselining) between gender. Why can't you make the jump to understanding that it is almost assuredly true that there are neurological portions of it to? You (and others) seem quite intent on wanting to draw a dividing line between genders, but when it comes to neurology, you suddenly become numb and disinterested in the science.

Because your thoughts do not determine your sex.

Regarding sexual attraction, we have people that have any number of fetishes... none of which anyone selected. How much of our preferences aren't remotely selected? We certainly don't choose our neuroses. We find things pleasing or unpleasing because our brain says we do. And that is all neurological. Chemical and physical reactions to stimuli we have no control over. Yet, for some reason, you think you get it all.

Your thoughts do not determine your sex.

 

[Oleg]

It implies identity can be fluid with people with brain related illness or injury.

But your biological sex isn't.

You mean the dangling bits again. You are obsessed with dangling bits. I get it. Dangling bits can be tantalizing, but when talking about personal IDENTITY, that involves the brain. Dangling bits provides a generalized idea as to gender identity (and sexual identity too!). But just because it works most of the time, doesn't mean it is a proof positive litmus test.

Dude, however you want to identify doesn't change your biology. It doesn't change that you have a male body; your heart, your intestine, your muscles, your skeletal structure. You can't change that.

 

[Metaphor]

Brain structures obviously play an enormous role in how we perceive ourselves, who we are attracted to, etc. Sexual orientation, sexuality, sexual identification have basis in brain structures. Not, as you are so fond of saying: it's just thoughts in your head. It's not. It's neurobiology.

Thoughts are caused by brain-states. So what? You keep saying 'it's neurobiology'. So what? My thoughts don't change my ethnicity, or my sex, or my age.

 

[Toni]

Oh, and Jacob Tobia wanting to be 'desired'

No one is "segregated by sex";

Of course they are - or were.

if we're talking about social identity, we're having a conversation about gender. And if we're saying "people of this category get to use this special room, but only people in that category get to do this ritual together", we're talking about social identity. How we choose to define, respond to, and exert political power over perceptions of sex is a purely cultural question, which different societies can and have devised different solutions to. Drag shows have only existed for two hundred years, they are not connected to the scientific discussion of biological sex traits except obliquely as part of our wider cultural conversation about gender.

And I do agree that transwomen are biologically female, at least in some respects. Your mind is no less a part of your body than any other part of you.

By 'mind' I assume you mean 'brain', and no. Having certain thoughts in your head does not change your sex or cause you to be the opposite sex.

So you are still ignoring studies which have identified structures in the brain that more closely resemble the sex the trans person is claiming than the sex they were assigned at birth?

What about them? Gay men have some brain structures that more closely resemble those of straight women than they do other men. Gay men are not women.

You still seem to be struggling over personal identity... and the basis of it.

My experience based on two people that I have known that suffered traumatic brain trauma is that self-identity is up to the central nervous system, and utterly out of our self conscious control. Neither of the people thought they were the opposite sex after the injury. However, their personalities changed tremendously. My reserved grandmother became a love smitten teen while a person I went to school went from wild alpha male to quiet, simple, and reserved. The original versions of these people never returned. So we have one body each and two personalities that didn't overlap.

So, if that can happen, and it has happened enough, the question becomes, why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender.

I do not doubt some trans-identified people wish to be, or become the opposite sex.

We know there are some macroscopic differences between gender. We know there are psychological differences (when baselining) between gender. Why can't you make the jump to understanding that it is almost assuredly true that there are neurological portions of it to? You (and others) seem quite intent on wanting to draw a dividing line between genders, but when it comes to neurology, you suddenly become numb and disinterested in the science.

Because your thoughts do not determine your sex.

Regarding sexual attraction, we have people that have any number of fetishes... none of which anyone selected. How much of our preferences aren't remotely selected? We certainly don't choose our neuroses. We find things pleasing or unpleasing because our brain says we do. And that is all neurological. Chemical and physical reactions to stimuli we have no control over. Yet, for some reason, you think you get it all.

Your thoughts do not determine your sex.

Is it delusion or dishonesty that motivates you to continue to assert that people are saying thoughts in one’s head determines your sex?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh, and Jacob Tobia wanting to be 'desired'

No one is "segregated by sex";

Of course they are - or were.

if we're talking about social identity, we're having a conversation about gender. And if we're saying "people of this category get to use this special room, but only people in that category get to do this ritual together", we're talking about social identity. How we choose to define, respond to, and exert political power over perceptions of sex is a purely cultural question, which different societies can and have devised different solutions to. Drag shows have only existed for two hundred years, they are not connected to the scientific discussion of biological sex traits except obliquely as part of our wider cultural conversation about gender.

And I do agree that transwomen are biologically female, at least in some respects. Your mind is no less a part of your body than any other part of you.

By 'mind' I assume you mean 'brain', and no. Having certain thoughts in your head does not change your sex or cause you to be the opposite sex.

So you are still ignoring studies which have identified structures in the brain that more closely resemble the sex the trans person is claiming than the sex they were assigned at birth?

What about them? Gay men have some brain structures that more closely resemble those of straight women than they do other men. Gay men are not women.

You still seem to be struggling over personal identity... and the basis of it.

My experience based on two people that I have known that suffered traumatic brain trauma is that self-identity is up to the central nervous system, and utterly out of our self conscious control. Neither of the people thought they were the opposite sex after the injury. However, their personalities changed tremendously. My reserved grandmother became a love smitten teen while a person I went to school went from wild alpha male to quiet, simple, and reserved. The original versions of these people never returned. So we have one body each and two personalities that didn't overlap.

So, if that can happen, and it has happened enough, the question becomes, why is it so hard to accept that there is a neurological construct that can develop for some people that make them think they are the opposite gender.

I do not doubt some trans-identified people wish to be, or become the opposite sex.

Again, you are talking about wishing, I'm talking about being. You continue to ignore that.

We know there are some macroscopic differences between gender. We know there are psychological differences (when baselining) between gender. Why can't you make the jump to understanding that it is almost assuredly true that there are neurological portions of it to? You (and others) seem quite intent on wanting to draw a dividing line between genders, but when it comes to neurology, you suddenly become numb and disinterested in the science.

Because your thoughts do not determine your sex.

Regarding sexual attraction, we have people that have any number of fetishes... none of which anyone selected. How much of our preferences aren't remotely selected? We certainly don't choose our neuroses. We find things pleasing or unpleasing because our brain says we do. And that is all neurological. Chemical and physical reactions to stimuli we have no control over. Yet, for some reason, you think you get it all.

Your thoughts do not determine your sex.

Just to continue the riff, your thoughts do not determine your sexual orientation either.