Europe submits voluntarily

[TSwizzle]

More "refugees" storm the beaches in Spain;

A boat carrying young migrants has landed on a beach in southern Spain, catching holidaymakers by surprise in the second such incident in two days.
Video footage shows the boat approaching the shore and at least two dozen people jumping off into the shallows before running across the sand. The migrants, seemingly all young men, dash past beach-goers on their towels as they try to make it off the sands before being caught by authorities. Local media report that at least 500 migrants have landed on the Andalusian coast on 18 different boats since Friday.

DailyMail

 

[angelo]

The perfect example is here..........................https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/08/...-crimes-because-they-dont-know-where-hes-from

You know that nobody here except you trust Jihadwatch as a source. So why do you even bother linking to it? If there's any kind of truth to it, don't you think the trustworthy part of the media would also report on it? If it's only Jihadwatch who report on something, chances are pretty good that they just made it up, don't you think?

Unfortunately for you, the truth is that millions of economic immigrants who are freeloading off Western European generosity aren't who they claim to be, and that's a fact.
Tell me, is Pravda really the only news source you trust, or perhaps Al Jazeera?

 

[Derec]

Conservatives (and libertarians, who are totally different, I swear!) are openly arguing that not ethnically cleansing Muslims counts as "submitting" to Muslims, but still get butthurt and cry whenever you compare them to white nationalists, neo-Nazis, etc.

Not wanting unlimited number of Muslims to migrate to Europe is not the same as "ethnic cleansing".
Neither is not wanting to allow anybody who gets into a dinghy off the coast of Africa to immigrate into Europe.
And many (if not most) libertarians tend to be very open borders (something I disagree with them about vehemently), so this is yet another Underseerish fail.

Meanwhile, Russia attacked our sovereignty, Republican politicians are doing everything possible to stop America from responding to that attack nor doing anything to defend ourselves from the next attack, but this does not count as "submitting"[ent]hellip[/ent] because it does not involve ethnic cleansing of minorities? I'm not even sure how that logic is supposed to work.

This is a thread about Europe submitting voluntarily to Islam. If you want to discuss Russian meddling, there are many threads about that already.

- - - Updated - - -

You can catch them but deport them where? To deport someone you have to know where they came from and the country has to be willing to take them back.

If they refuse to say where they are from or lie about it (or their age) their benefits should be cut off.

 

[Derec]

If they are committing crimes at a lower rate than citizens and lawful residents, then they are a net benefit to the community.

But they are not. According to the data posted upthread, Afghans for example are 10x as likely to commit rape (as Sweden defines it) in Sweden than the average.

Do you have evidence that they are not? After all, petty crime for a citizen carries light penalties if caught; But for an unlawful non-resident, the penalty for even the most trivial infractions is deportation.

Tell that to the Yemeni who raped a 13 year old in Sweden but got probation and did not even get deported.
Or the Iraqi who tried to assassinate an Iraqi prime minister in Germany and after serving a few years in prison was not deported but allowed to stay in Germany. Later he went on to stab a police woman, who luckily survived.

It's very difficult to deport these mass migrants in Europe, even if they are criminal and/or Islamists. That needs to change.

How likely are you to care about a speeding ticket? Now, how likely would you be to care about a speeding ticket if it meant you would be tossed out of the country and never allowed to return?

If Europeans are not deporting Muslim mass migrants for rape and attempted assassiation, why would you think they are deporting them for speeding tickets?

Unlawful non-residents are typically very careful to obey the law as much as possible, conversant with keeping themselves and their families alive. They accept unlawfully bad working conditions and unlawfully sub-standard living accommodation in order to stay in the country where they want to live; Few people in that position are dumb enough to commit needless crimes, and the few who do are quickly caught and deported. So it's a non-issue.

I see you are completely ignorant of the situation in Europe. Very few get deported.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

How do they not know where they are from? Ask them in various languages. There are only so many options. They should cooperate and hope for entry. If they refuse to cooperate and even say where they came from, then why is it on Europe to accommodate them at all, even for a moment? They wold be justified in just towing them out to sea leaving them there if they won't cooperate.

 

[Derec]

You've missed what's newsworthy about the event. What's interesting is that SVT, the state sponsored news source has so far not acknowledged anything outside the left liberal agenda. It's always been extremely left, and a source of annoyance to conservatives. Since it's basically a 24/7 propaganda mouthpiece for just one side on the political spectrum, financed by everybody... by force. So it's interesting that they've finally started to change this.

Yes, if even the lefty media acknowledge that mass migrants are more prone to crimes like rape, then the situation is so obvious not even they can deny it. Like when Venezuelan state TV starts acknowledging inflation, you know shit has truly hit the fan.

It's also interesting that they're chosing to do it two weeks before a national election where the second largest political party is at the moment full on social conservative and racist. They want to do things like make it harder for pregnant women to get abortions. And everything else a modern civilised country tend to take for granted. There's authentic pictures and films of all of their leaders in full Nazi regalia doing Nazi salutes. It's a political party closely associated with classical Nazism.

That is yet another problem with declaring legitimate grievances as out of bounds. In mainstream parties ignore the issue of mass Muslim migration, non-mainstream parties will pick up the slack. Germany has the same problem right now caused by the allegedly conservative party opening up the borders to a million mass Muslim migrants in 2015. In US the same thing gave us Trump. The issue of illegal migration was largely ignored by both parties, with establishment Republican Jeb Bush even calling illegal migration an "act of love". No wonder Trump and his wall proved popular with many voters!

It's, (now dead) founder was a Swedish volonteer for Hitler in WW2.

By the way, it's spelled "volunteer". The second "o" is present in the Swedish word, but it's "u" in English.

They've lumped together rape and attempted rape as one category. In Sweden the category of rape is, by international standards, wide and includes things which we ordinarily don't associate with rape. Simply put, it's much easier to be convicted of rape and attempted rape in Sweden, than it is in other countries.

That does not explain why certain groups, like Afghans, have a disproportionate rate of rape convictions.

It's still problematic that people born in other countries are over-represented in the statistic. But I'd be curious what the number would be if we'd look at rapes as a separate category. It's worth looking into.

Well, you are a Swede. It should be easier for you to find relevant statistics, and look at homicides and robberies while you are at it too.

By the way, is she a politician?

Could easily have been avoided. This guy had applied for refugee status, even though he was an economic migrant.

Like millions of others who came to Europe in the last 5 years.

All our problems with "Islamic terrorism" stem from this. If we just kick people out quicker, there's no problem. I also have no moral hang-ups about it, because these people lied on the application. They've been wasting the time of public officials for years and I have no love for people like that.

I agree they should be deported faster, but to say that all Islamic terrorism in Sweden stems from this is quite a claim.

The Uzbeck guy was a non-practicing super liberal Muslim up until he was told to leave the country. He got radicalised super fast. He had in letters lied to his wife about him having gotten permanent residency. So an amateur psychologist might hazard to guess that he might feel shame about having to face his wife about having lied all this time, and his solution was to commit suicide in an Islamic terrorist attack.

Or maybe he was an Islamist all along and only pretended (taqiyya) to improve his chances to stay. Do we know if his wife is a letterbox?

The border is about as open or closed now as it was before. Nothing changed. The only thing that changed was that non-refugees saw a chance to mingle with genuine refugees in the hope of slipping through the cracks. How well this has worked we'll find out in the coming years. Since it takes years to process them. But I doubt any of the economic migrants will be allowed to stay. Have you heard of any?

Well depends how you define "allowed to stay". If you deny their application for asylum but allow them to live in Europe for years and years, aren't you effectively allowing them to stay? According to this, 1.8 million mass migrants came through the Mediterranean route alone since 2014. How many were deported?

What's the source? Sounds like bullshit to me

I posted the article it was from. Which part do you think is bullshit? That mass migrants are shifting to Bosnia or that thousands of them are getting through?
Many other articles say similar things. Just do a google news search for "migrants Bosnia". Here is a recent one:
Migrants in Bosnia risk all to complete ‘the game’ before winter bites

Bosnia has recorded the arrival of 11,000 migrants this year, after registering only 755 in 2017. The “Balkan route” by which more than a million people reached the EU in 2015 has thereby taken a new turn to avoid tighter border controls.

About 4,000 migrants are currently in Bosnia at any one time, with hundreds arriving each week through Montenegro and Serbia and moving on into Croatia, through thickly wooded hills around Velika Kladusa that they call “the jungle”.

If 11,000 have registered but 4,000 remain in Bosnia at any given time, that means that ~7,000 have moved on. And more are coming each day.

People keep coming here from the Middle East, Central Asia and North Africa, despite the appalling conditions and mounting reports of Croatian police violence, as they race to complete the game before autumn rain and cold weather hit Bosnia.

And here is a story of a mass migrant who has succeeded in the "Game" and made it to the promised land of Germoney.

He risked his life playing 'The Game': A migrant's harrowing journey to the West

That whole case is hillarious. And just goes to show how important it is not to assume shit, and instead check sources and question what you read and hear. Yes, I'm talking about you Derec. Don't be the conservative equivalent version of this idiot lefty liberal.

Which part do you think I have not checked sufficiently?

He's just following the UNHR rules.

And these rules are hopelessly outdated. So why should European countries (and also US) follow them?

The EU rules are tailored around protecting Scandinavia, France, England and Germany and letting the rest of EU deal with refugees from the Middle-East and Africa. It's an extremely unfair system. So the "border countries" have every reason to let these people through. It's all about incentives. The EU countries are not being fair toward eachother, and they're all trying to shirk responsibility for taking care of refugees. That's what is creating this bizarre situation where refugees trek through all of Europe before declaring Sweden as their first port of entry into Europe, when it obviously wasn't. It's not the refugees fault. We should put pressure on our European politicians to fix this shit. Because this is a system that ain't working

The solution is not to force EU countries to take more mass migrants. That would merely encourage even more mass migration. The solution is to turn back the mass migrants. It cannot be that all people have to do to be let into Europe is to get into a dinghy anywhere off the coast of Africa for example. These people need to be pushed back where they took off, not pushed onto EU countries.

 

[bilby]

But they are not. According to the data posted upthread, Afghans for example are 10x as likely to commit rape (as Sweden defines it) in Sweden than the average.


Tell that to the Yemeni who raped a 13 year old in Sweden but got probation and did not even get deported.
Or the Iraqi who tried to assassinate an Iraqi prime minister in Germany and after serving a few years in prison was not deported but allowed to stay in Germany. Later he went on to stab a police woman, who luckily survived.

It's very difficult to deport these mass migrants in Europe, even if they are criminal and/or Islamists. That needs to change.

How likely are you to care about a speeding ticket? Now, how likely would you be to care about a speeding ticket if it meant you would be tossed out of the country and never allowed to return?

If Europeans are not deporting Muslim mass migrants for rape and attempted assassiation, why would you think they are deporting them for speeding tickets?

Unlawful non-residents are typically very careful to obey the law as much as possible, conversant with keeping themselves and their families alive. They accept unlawfully bad working conditions and unlawfully sub-standard living accommodation in order to stay in the country where they want to live; Few people in that position are dumb enough to commit needless crimes, and the few who do are quickly caught and deported. So it's a non-issue.

I see you are completely ignorant of the situation in Europe. Very few get deported.

I am an EU citizen, almost all of my family lives there, my sister is a lawyer who specialises in European Law, and I visit about every second year. Anout half of the friends I have regular contact with are in Europe.

So yes, I am probably completely ignorant of the situation in Europe. I should read the Daily Mail and jihadwatch so I can be fully informed like you and angelo. But I just can't bear to wade through that shit, and without a bunch of fascist morons telling me what to think, I must remain ignorant.

 

[Derec]

Some of you may have heard of the unrest in the east German city of Chemnitz. The trigger was the stabbing of a German man by two mass migrants, a Syrian and an Iraqi.
Violence in Chemnitz: A timeline of events
But the underlying cause is Merkel's disastrous migration policy.

 

[Derec]

I am an EU citizen, almost all of my family lives there, my sister is a lawyer who specialises in European Law, and I visit about every second year. Anout half of the friends I have regular contact with are in Europe.

So yes, I am probably completely ignorant of the situation in Europe.

Well you are, despite your family connections, if you think mass migrants get deported easily. It is very difficult to deport these people even when they have committed serious crimes and/or are Islamist extremists. Hell, Germany is not even allowed to deport Bin Laden's bodyguard back to Tunisia. That's fucked up!

I should read the Daily Mail and jihadwatch so I can be fully informed like you and angelo. But I just can't bear to wade through that shit, and without a bunch of fascist morons telling me what to think, I must remain ignorant.

BS. Other news sources say the same thing. The so-called "asylum seekers" are extremely difficult to deport.

 

[bilby]

Some of you may have heard of the unrest in the east German city of Chemnitz. The trigger was the stabbing of a German man by two mass migrants, a Syrian and an Iraqi.
Violence in Chemnitz: A timeline of events
But the underlying cause is Merkel's disastrous migration policy.

The word 'mass' qualifies the word 'migrants' to mean 'very large numbers of migrants'.

The phrase "two mass migrants" is both oxymoronic and moronic.

I politely decline your invitation to be outraged by mass migration on the basis of the actions of two people, as by definition two migrants are an unrepresentative tiny minority of the class 'mass migrants'.

When your argument contradicts its own conclusion, it should probably be abandoned.

 

[Derec]

The word 'mass' qualifies the word 'migrants' to mean 'very large numbers of migrants'.

Yes.

The phrase "two mass migrants" is both oxymoronic and moronic.

No. The phrase means "two members of a very large group of migrants". They were part of the large influx of migrants Merkel authorized. That makes them mass migrants. Your objection is moronic.

I politely decline your invitation to be outraged by mass migration on the basis of the actions of two people, as by definition two migrants are an unrepresentative tiny minority of the class 'mass migrants'.

When your argument contradicts its own conclusion, it should probably be abandoned.

There is no contradiction there.

 

[bilby]

Yes.


No. The phrase means "two members of a very large group of migrants". They were part of the large influx of migrants Merkel authorized. That makes them mass migrants. Your objection is moronic.

I politely decline your invitation to be outraged by mass migration on the basis of the actions of two people, as by definition two migrants are an unrepresentative tiny minority of the class 'mass migrants'.

When your argument contradicts its own conclusion, it should probably be abandoned.

There is no contradiction there.

Sure there is.

Two people did something bad.

Those two people are members of a larger group.

Your assertion that their behaviour is typical of the group as a whole, is in contradiction with your assertion that the group is very large. Two out of three, or two out of four, could be considered 'typical'. Two out of many is not - and the larger the size of 'many', the less typical the behaviour of those two must be.

Thinking. It's not hard, but it's apparently not for everyone.

 

[Derec]

Sure there is.
Two people did something bad.

Yeah, two people did something very bad. But why should these people be tolerated?
A few years ago a young woman was raped and murdered by an Afghan. This could have been prevented if not for Merkel's open door policy because the same Afghan almost killed a young woman in Greece. But Germany decided not to do any vetting and just let everybody in. That was an idiotic decision.

Those two people are members of a larger group.

A group that is, in Germany, 4 times as likely to commit crimes than the average.
8,5 Prozent aller Straftatverdächtigen sind Zuwanderer
While most migrants are not criminals, migrants are much more likely to be criminal than Germans. That is significant.

Your assertion that their behaviour is typical of the group as a whole, is in contradiction with your assertion that the group is very large. Two out of three, or two out of four, could be considered 'typical'. Two out of many is not - and the larger the size of 'many', the less typical the behaviour of those two must be.

Did I say it was typical? No, I did not. I said open borders policies are bad. I said not vetting any immigrants is bad. I said not deporting criminal and/or extremists migrants quickly is bad. Why should any of these be controversial?

Thinking. It's not hard, but it's apparently not for everyone.

I agree. You seem to have more difficulties with it than most.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How do they not know where they are from? Ask them in various languages. There are only so many options. They should cooperate and hope for entry. If they refuse to cooperate and even say where they came from, then why is it on Europe to accommodate them at all, even for a moment? They wold be justified in just towing them out to sea leaving them there if they won't cooperate.

The issue isn't whether they know where they are from. The issue is whether the government knows where they are from. To deport someone you have to have a place to deport them to--which means identifying their true country of citizenship. (And it also means the country must be willing to take them back. Many of the places they are fleeing don't want them back and thus will deny deportation.)

 

[ZiprHead]

Yeah, two people did something very bad. But why should these people be tolerated?
A few years ago a young woman was raped and murdered by an Afghan. This could have been prevented if not for Merkel's open door policy because the same Afghan almost killed a young woman in Greece. But Germany decided not to do any vetting and just let everybody in. That was an idiotic decision.


A group that is, in Germany, 4 times as likely to commit crimes than the average.
8,5 Prozent aller Straftatverdächtigen sind Zuwanderer
While most migrants are not criminals, migrants are much more likely to be criminal than Germans. That is significant.

Your assertion that their behaviour is typical of the group as a whole, is in contradiction with your assertion that the group is very large. Two out of three, or two out of four, could be considered 'typical'. Two out of many is not - and the larger the size of 'many', the less typical the behaviour of those two must be.

Did I say it was typical? No, I did not. I said open borders policies are bad. I said not vetting any immigrants is bad. I said not deporting criminal and/or extremists migrants quickly is bad. Why should any of these be controversial?

Thinking. It's not hard, but it's apparently not for everyone.

I agree. You seem to have more difficulties with it than most.

Interesting that we have a migrant right in our midst that regularly commits crimes.

I asked this before but never got an answer. Derec, were you an economic migrant or a refugee?

 

[ZiprHead]

Some of you may have heard of the unrest in the east German city of Chemnitz. The trigger was the stabbing of a German man by two mass migrants, a Syrian and an Iraqi.
Violence in Chemnitz: A timeline of events
But the underlying cause is Merkel's disastrous migration policy.

Some people got into an argument and someone got stabbed. I'm sure native Germans never do that sort of thing, thank goodness.

But what do they do? From your link:

Police received complaints from a 15-year-old German woman and her 17-year-old Afghan companion who said they were attacked, an 18-year-old Syrian who said he was beaten and a 30-year-old Bulgarian man who said he was held and threatened. Video footage also shows demonstrators attacking police officers. Police used pepper spray and truncheons to regain control of the situation.

And then the next day, the native Germans did this (again, according to Derec's link):

On Monday, thousands of people gathered in the heart of the Chemnitz. Police, who say 6,000 people attended in support of the far-right group Pro Chemnitz, while another 1,500 people protested on the side, including left-wing groups, managed to keep the opposing sides apart until 9 p.m., when the situation began to deteriorate. Protesters threw fireworks, bottles and other projectiles. On the defensive again, the 600-strong police force brought in two water cannon as a deterrent.

Several far-right protesters performed Nazi salutes.

Damn, it almost sounds like black people in St. Louis.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The perfect example is here..........................https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/08/...-crimes-because-they-dont-know-where-hes-from

You know that nobody here except you trust Jihadwatch as a source. So why do you even bother linking to it? If there's any kind of truth to it, don't you think the trustworthy part of the media would also report on it? If it's only Jihadwatch who report on something, chances are pretty good that they just made it up, don't you think?

Unfortunately for you, the truth is that millions of economic immigrants who are freeloading off Western European generosity aren't who they claim to be, and that's a fact.
Tell me, is Pravda really the only news source you trust, or perhaps Al Jazeera?

I trust news sources with a proven track record. It's measurable and people measure it.

The thing with constantly posting breaking news is that soon the exact details emerge, and it's revealed who was honest.

Jihadwatch has an abysmal track record. Just use any service that compares sources and Jihadwatch is at the bottom. It's one of the worst offenders on par with conspiracy theory websites

 

[angelo]

But they are not. According to the data posted upthread, Afghans for example are 10x as likely to commit rape (as Sweden defines it) in Sweden than the average.


Tell that to the Yemeni who raped a 13 year old in Sweden but got probation and did not even get deported.
Or the Iraqi who tried to assassinate an Iraqi prime minister in Germany and after serving a few years in prison was not deported but allowed to stay in Germany. Later he went on to stab a police woman, who luckily survived.

It's very difficult to deport these mass migrants in Europe, even if they are criminal and/or Islamists. That needs to change.


If Europeans are not deporting Muslim mass migrants for rape and attempted assassiation, why would you think they are deporting them for speeding tickets?



I see you are completely ignorant of the situation in Europe. Very few get deported.

I am an EU citizen, almost all of my family lives there, my sister is a lawyer who specialises in European Law, and I visit about every second year. Anout half of the friends I have regular contact with are in Europe.

So yes, I am probably completely ignorant of the situation in Europe. I should read the Daily Mail and jihadwatch so I can be fully informed like you and angelo. But I just can't bear to wade through that shit, and without a bunch of fascist morons telling me what to think, I must remain ignorant.

At least you admit that you only read the Guardian and New York Times type of lefty periodicals and most likely online Huff post.

 

[angelo]

Yes.


No. The phrase means "two members of a very large group of migrants". They were part of the large influx of migrants Merkel authorized. That makes them mass migrants. Your objection is moronic.






There is no contradiction there.

Sure there is.

Two people did something bad.

Those two people are members of a larger group.

Your assertion that their behaviour is typical of the group as a whole, is in contradiction with your assertion that the group is very large. Two out of three, or two out of four, could be considered 'typical'. Two out of many is not - and the larger the size of 'many', the less typical the behaviour of those two must be.

Thinking. It's not hard, but it's apparently not for everyone.

Here is a politically correct [as far as is possible] study of the problem. Islam is not and never will be compatible with any Western,democratic civilasation.

https://www.quora.com/Are-Muslims-migrants-in-Europe-causing-high-crime-rates

 

[angelo]

How do they not know where they are from? Ask them in various languages. There are only so many options. They should cooperate and hope for entry. If they refuse to cooperate and even say where they came from, then why is it on Europe to accommodate them at all, even for a moment? They wold be justified in just towing them out to sea leaving them there if they won't cooperate.

The issue isn't whether they know where they are from. The issue is whether the government knows where they are from. To deport someone you have to have a place to deport them to--which means identifying their true country of citizenship. (And it also means the country must be willing to take them back. Many of the places they are fleeing don't want them back and thus will deny deportation.)

Not a problem if they're not allowed in in the first place. Turn the boats around. It shouldn't be too hard. Once the word gets out, and the word will get out with the speed of light, they'll stop coming.