So you fully admit there are no companies you can point to that, as a factual matter, "would never hire Christians".
As I said, I don't care about your imaginings.
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Evangelical Christians in TX Sue for Right to Discriminate Against LGBTQ Workers
- Thread starter phands
- Start date
So you fully admit there are no companies you can point to that, as a factual matter, "would never hire Christians".
As I said, I don't care about your imaginings.
Lion IRC
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You're equally free to imagine that no company in America has someone like phands doing the job interviews.
You're free to believe that no companies in America ever force employees to sign mandatory LGBTQ inclusiveness policy documents which violate the religious conscience of various religions. No signature - no job.
Sexuality versus spirituality.
Guess which one the hedonistic, mammon-worshipping, Gordon Gekko's of this world pick.
You're free to believe that no companies in America ever force employees to sign mandatory LGBTQ inclusiveness policy documents which violate the religious conscience of various religions. No signature - no job.
Sexuality versus spirituality.
Guess which one the hedonistic, mammon-worshipping, Gordon Gekko's of this world pick.
Yes, of course there are companies out there with people doing those sorts of things. There are also companies out there cheating on their taxes, sexually harassing their employees, allowing workers to criticize the President and dumping toxic sludge in rivers.
The fact that these things occur does not mean that those companies are in the right while doing them. Nor does it mean different illegal or immoral acts are acceptable just because they can be pointed to as examples of other people doing things wrong.
southernhybrid
Contributor
Dear Lion, I have lived in the US for my entire 69 years. I have worked most of my adult life. Nobody ever asked me if I was a Christian, an atheist, gay or straight. That type of question isn't on applications and isn't asked by potential employers. It's true that Trump sometimes worries us that he is taking us down the road to fascism, but at least for now, there has never been a case of a Christian being discriminated against in the work place.
And, while I have worked with some hateful, nasty Christian bitches in a couple of jobs, I have also worked with some wonderful, Christian nurses who fully accepted me as an atheist and were kind enough not to push their religion in my face. And, this was in the South!
For some strange reason, American Evangelical Christians suffer from this weird persecution complex, allowing them to believe that they are going to be jailed or lose their civil rights. This is insane. I think what they really fear is losing majority status. We atheists wish them no harm. We just don't want them destroying our country by supporting an incompetent mad man. But, I digress.
Sohy
And, while I have worked with some hateful, nasty Christian bitches in a couple of jobs, I have also worked with some wonderful, Christian nurses who fully accepted me as an atheist and were kind enough not to push their religion in my face. And, this was in the South!
For some strange reason, American Evangelical Christians suffer from this weird persecution complex, allowing them to believe that they are going to be jailed or lose their civil rights. This is insane. I think what they really fear is losing majority status. We atheists wish them no harm. We just don't want them destroying our country by supporting an incompetent mad man. But, I digress.
Sohy
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There some self-selection in play with the fear thing; Christians are conditioned to respond reflexively to fear stimuli, but from the start they have to be susceptible. Religious obeisance starts with fear of Hell (or whatever equivalent a particular religion has invented for the purpose). So when someone comes along who wants to stoke their fears, and tells them they're persecuted - they love it.
bilby
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There's also a fair degree of projection at work - it's common amongst authoritarians and narcissists, and Trump provides examples of it almost daily.
The train of thought goes "If I could, I would discriminate unfairly against gays; Therefore if they could, they would discriminate unfairly against me; Therefore I am under attack and my unfair discrimination is justified self-defense".
So you freely admit that you made a claim that you cannot back up with anything resembling facts; therefore you resort to ad hominems and Christobabble
bilby
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If signing an agreement not to harass coworkers and/or customers on the basis of their sexuality (which is no-one else's business) is a violation of someone's religious conscience, then their religious conscience is making them into an evil little shit who can't mind their own business, and should probably be discarded.
Keith&Co.
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i guess in Lion's world, no True Xian would ever agree that the workplace is not yhe right place to be militant about homosexuals.
So he must not think anyone at Chik Fil A, staff or admin or owner, is a real Xian.
But, still, if some people who self-identify as Xians do sign the agreement, and the employer has no means of judging whether or not they really are Xians, then they appear willing to hire Xians.
So Lion STILL can't stretch reality enough to back up his attempted tu quoque whining....
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
If a Christian run business can refuse to hire a lesbian or gay man for religious reasons, can they refuse to hire somebody they consider a heretic for religious reasons? perhaps an atheist, or agnostic? Catholic or a Jew who does not believe Jesus is Lord?
Emo Phillips
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Emo Phillips
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Jobar
Zen Hedonist
It is a very Christian thing to consider themselves persecuted, or that they will be in the future.
It always seemed to me that the whole 'turn the other cheek' ethos was clearly the best survival strategy for a badly defeated people; which the Jews were, in two succeeding generations. The second Jewish War in particular came close to extinguishing them as a people and a religion- the persecution they faced was very real, and if they had all tried to continue to fight openly, might have proceeded to outright genocide. Luckily for the Jews, the Romans were not such implacable monsters as were the Nazis, and such genocide didn't happen. But both the religions which were born of that ancient conflict (Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism) are still scarred with the marks of the thoroughly vanquished, even all these centuries later.
However, when any form of those religions have worked their way into the halls of power, I notice that 'turn the other cheek' ethos immediately falls by the wayside, and those who claim they were persecuted become the persecutors.
It always seemed to me that the whole 'turn the other cheek' ethos was clearly the best survival strategy for a badly defeated people; which the Jews were, in two succeeding generations. The second Jewish War in particular came close to extinguishing them as a people and a religion- the persecution they faced was very real, and if they had all tried to continue to fight openly, might have proceeded to outright genocide. Luckily for the Jews, the Romans were not such implacable monsters as were the Nazis, and such genocide didn't happen. But both the religions which were born of that ancient conflict (Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism) are still scarred with the marks of the thoroughly vanquished, even all these centuries later.
However, when any form of those religions have worked their way into the halls of power, I notice that 'turn the other cheek' ethos immediately falls by the wayside, and those who claim they were persecuted become the persecutors.
Jimmy Higgins
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Spirituality is an individual’s connection to god. Organized religion is the “god” stamped excuse for butting into the lives of others. You seem to getting the two mixed up.
Those meany LGBTQetc... won’t let me persecute and exclude them... I feel so persecuted!
Underseer
Contributor
Even if I were willing to accept the lies and the bad logic, I simply don't have enough hate in my heart to be a Christian or a Muslim.
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Worldtraveller
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You sure do whine a lot for someone who doesn't feel persecuted.
phands
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As usual, you betray your abject ignorance. In my career, I've interviewed thousands of people, and hired many hundreds. At no point, ever, did religion even get a look-in...it is irrelevant to the hiring process, not to mention illegal in any country I've ever hired in, including the far east, so you clearly are just projecting your hatred of atheists. As i look at our staff right now, I don't even know if some are religious at all, but we know we have Hindus, Jews, Muslims, xtians and one Sikh, because they are open and unafraid to declare their views if they want, because the company culture is open and accepting - not just because the law dictates. In a further blow to the true-xtian worldview, more than 70% of the company are women, including two thirds of my software engineering team. So, LIRC...stop trying to use me as an example of your own problems.
US law does not allow employers to discriminate against qualified candidates on the basis of religion. I have been interviewed for several jobs over the course of my career, and have interviewed over two dozen candidates who were applying for positions with our company. Never was the religion of the candidate brought up during the interview, either directly or indirectly. Not once!
It is possible that some employers practice forms of religious discrimination in the hiring process, but that is not the norm, and is also against the law.
Also, your claim that someone like phands would discriminate against Christians during the hiring process is a baseless assertion, and insulting. But that is how you make a living in these forums, and nothing new.
Not being allowed to discriminate against LGBT co-workers is not a form of persecution. If your bigotry, oops, religious conscience prevents you from being around LGBT people, you are free to turn in your notice and quit.
I don't know. Why don't you enlighten us?
I suppose you are taking a dig at us by describing atheists as hedonistic and mammon worshiping, who would sell their mother for a dollar. This characterization is a lie, as many of your characterizations are. Whereas in real life, you apparently support an organization that shelters and enables criminal priests who rape children. And you make a habit of repeating lies. Doesn't the Bible say something about this:
phands
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I find sexuality very spiritual....more so than the awfulness of religion. Further, isn't the worship of Mammon a very xtian thing? look at the current gop - all extremely xtian, and the megachurch pastors, and the "prosperity bible". Yet again, LIRC is hoist on his own petard.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
The Gospels repeatedly have Jesus telling his followers to sell all they have and give to the poor. Few Christians follow the commands of Jesus here. If we judge true Christians as those who faithfully follow the commands of Jesus, we will have to admit, there are damned few real Christians in America. I count 9 such commands in the gospels and a number of supporting verses besides. It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than a rich man to go to heaven etc.
It is all nice to argue with atheists but try arguing instead with Jesus.
It is all nice to argue with atheists but try arguing instead with Jesus.
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Fixed your post to reflect what I saw when I read it.