Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Nice Squirrel]

1. Ricochet
2. Being forcefully thrown.
3. Acceleration. Why stop suddenly if you don't intend to accelerate very rapidly?

Take your pick. I'm being generous here. But yes, I have fallen forcefully backwards in a vehicle but was able to brace myself. I wasn't handcuffed or in any kind of restraints.

Why is the use of seatbelts mandated?

Ricochet into the back of the vehicle? <ROTFL>

Being forcefully thrown? I assume you mean by the cops--it would be pretty hard for them to throw him against the back of the vehicle.

Or slam the door on head? WE can ROLFL because an innocent man died at that as well I suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

What? What exactly is it that you think these nickel rides are? Are you seriously ignoring the entire concept simply to focus on someone's usage of the word "breaking"? I get that you want to obfuscate the matter by moving the focus of the discussion to trivial irrelevancies, but don't you think that you're overdoing it a little bit in this case?

Just because cops sometimes give prisoners a rough ride doesn't mean that this injury must be due to a rough ride. The key factor here is the location of the bolt--not in a location that could reasonably inflict serious injury due to a rough ride.

So you approve of rough riding the individual?

 

[ksen]

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

 

[beero1000]

Is this a serious argument?

There are multiple ways such an injury could have occurred. The simplest of which is a hard brake in reverse.

The van made multiple stops, and it's more than plausible that at some point it needed to turn around. A hard 3-point turn would do it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

Has there been a diagram with the layout of the police vehicle with where the seats were and facing and the bolt was?

 

[Toni]

So, one is allowed only a single medical issue and cannot consequently suffer a fatal injury? Do tell.

Asthma attacks can be fatal if not treated. That's why there are inhalers and why asthma sufferers and their loved ones---and people who have even a tiny responsibility for providing first aide know how necessary an inhaler is and that it might not be enough and more medical attention may be quickly needed.

Maybe that was it: they killed Gray by accelerating to get him to the ER, inadvertently throwing him against the door with force sufficient to cause a severe spinal injury.

If the guy runs away from the cops and when they catch up to him and he says he needs his inhaler but after a few minutes his breathing has returned to normal then they could wait until the police station. As dismal said they don't have to obey every request that a person in custody makes. The unconscious in the back on the van is is a bigger issue they need to worry about.

After a few minutes without an inhaler, someone suffering from an asthma attack can be dead.

But sure, it is possible breathing returned to normal. But a person on a prone position (not good for asthma) and nonresponsive
might not be recovered from that asthma attack. They might be dead. Even without a spinal cord injury.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If the guy runs away from the cops and when they catch up to him and he says he needs his inhaler but after a few minutes his breathing has returned to normal then they could wait until the police station. As dismal said they don't have to obey every request that a person in custody makes. The unconscious in the back on the van is is a bigger issue they need to worry about.

After a few minutes without an inhaler, someone suffering from an asthma attack can be dead.

But sure, it is possible breathing returned to normal. But a person on a prone position (not good for asthma) and nonresponsive
might not be recovered from that asthma attack. They might be dead. Even without a spinal cord injury.

That wasn't the case here, the death came from the neck hitting the bolt. The argument for and against will be what caused that with both sides giving different opinions or the defense accepting plea bargains.

 

[ksen]

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

Has there been a diagram with the layout of the police vehicle with where the seats were and facing and the bolt was?

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

 

[laughing dog]

How about paying a little respect to the facts of the case rather than spinning doubletalk that has no bearing on the situation?

No irony meter could measure that one.

If he's facing backwards that has absolutely no effect on whether he can be thrown into the bolt on the back of the van. All it would do is change the location of the injury.

You are the one who said it was impossible to be thrown backwards when a vehicle stops. Your claim made no reference to the facts of the case. So your claim was literally wrong. And as others have demonstrated, your claim is wrong even with respect to the facts of the case.

Instead of literally making up excuses without regards to the facts or reason, why don't you let the actual facts speak for themselves?

 

[RavenSky]

Let's assume police did not take Freddie Gray of a "rough ride". How did his spinal cord get severed and his voice box get crushed?

And why did the police van drive all over town with Freddie Gray in the back pleading for an inhaler or medical attention instead of going straight to the Western District Police Station almost an hour later?

http://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduOwLbFYwknq6jK/giphy.gif

Police arrested Freddie Gray on Presbury Street at/very near North Mount Street. From there, they could have driven 7 blocks south to the police station. Instead Officer Caesar Goodson drove those 7 blocks south, plus another 7 blocks east of the police station. We don't know the exact route he took (to determine if it was one filled with many multiple turns or not), but it was certainly a strange detour, made all the more suspicious by the fact that Officer Goodson did not call it in as he was required to do.

Next, Goodson drives another five blocks east to Druid Hill Avenue and Dolphin Street on a route that cannot be reached in a straight line. This time when he stops, he does call it in.

"Several blocks later, Officer Goodson called into dispatch that he needed to check on the status of his prisoner and requested additional units at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue. Officer William Porter arrived on the scene at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue. Both Officer Goodson and Porter proceeded to the back of the wagon to check on the status of Mr. Gray's condition. Mr. Gray at that time requested help and indicated that he could not breathe. Officer Porter asked Mr. Gray if he needed a medic at which time Mr. Gray indicated at least twice that he was in need of a medic. Officer Porter then physically assisted Mr. Gray from the floor of the van to the bench however despite Mr. Gray's appeal for a medic, both officers assessed Mr. Gray's condition and at no point did either of them restrain Mr. Gray per BPD general order nor did they render or request medical assistance."

— According to prosecutor Mosby, while the officers talked, there was a call for assistance for another arrest close to where Gray was arrested in the first place. Ofc. Goodson decided to respond to that call instead of getting medical help for Gray.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ts-what-we-know-about-the-freddie-gray-arrest

So now they drive all the way back north very close to their original starting point where they pick up the second prisoner at West North Avenue approximately 2 blocks east of North Mount Street. This is where Officer Alicia White finds Freddie Gray unresponsive, but still no one calls for medical assistance. Instead they drive both prisoners to the Western District Police Station, but it is too late for Freddie Gray.

So, let's assume no "rough ride". Anyone want to speculate about how Freddie Gray's neck got broken and/or why the mystery detour?

P.S. I would also like for someone to post a link to the source that says this bolt was on the back door of the van. Every source I've read says "in the back of the van" which could be anywhere within the space holding Freddie Gray

 

[laughing dog]

Let's assume police did not take Freddie Gray of a "rough ride". How did his spinal cord get severed and his voice box get crushed?

And why did the police van drive all over town with Freddie Gray in the back pleading for an inhaler or medical attention instead of going straight to the Western District Police Station almost an hour later?

View attachment 2906 http://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduOwLbFYwknq6jK/giphy.gif

Police arrested Freddie Gray on Presbury Street at/very near North Mount Street. From there, they could have driven 7 blocks south to the police station. Instead Officer Caesar Goodson drove those 7 blocks south, plus another 7 blocks east of the police station. We don't know the exact route he took (to determine if it was one filled with many multiple turns or not), but it was certainly a strange detour, made all the more suspicious by the fact that Officer Goodson did not call it in as he was required to do.

Next, Goodson drives another five blocks east to Druid Hill Avenue and Dolphin Street on a route that cannot be reached in a straight line. This time when he stops, he does call it in.

"Several blocks later, Officer Goodson called into dispatch that he needed to check on the status of his prisoner and requested additional units at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue. Officer William Porter arrived on the scene at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue. Both Officer Goodson and Porter proceeded to the back of the wagon to check on the status of Mr. Gray's condition. Mr. Gray at that time requested help and indicated that he could not breathe. Officer Porter asked Mr. Gray if he needed a medic at which time Mr. Gray indicated at least twice that he was in need of a medic. Officer Porter then physically assisted Mr. Gray from the floor of the van to the bench however despite Mr. Gray's appeal for a medic, both officers assessed Mr. Gray's condition and at no point did either of them restrain Mr. Gray per BPD general order nor did they render or request medical assistance."

— According to prosecutor Mosby, while the officers talked, there was a call for assistance for another arrest close to where Gray was arrested in the first place. Ofc. Goodson decided to respond to that call instead of getting medical help for Gray.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ts-what-we-know-about-the-freddie-gray-arrest

So now they drive all the way back north very close to their original starting point where they pick up the second prisoner at West North Avenue approximately 2 blocks east of North Mount Street. This is where Officer Alicia White finds Freddie Gray unresponsive, but still no one calls for medical assistance. Instead they drive both prisoners to the Western District Police Station, but it is too late for Freddie Gray.

So, let's assume no "rough ride". Anyone want to speculate about how Freddie Gray's neck got broken and/or why the mystery detour?

P.S. I would also like for someone to post a link to the source that says this bolt was on the back door of the van. Every source I've read says "in the back of the van" which could be anywhere within the space holding Freddie Gray

Why bother with the facts when it is so much easier to literally make excuses out of thin air for the police?

 

[arkirk]

Despite this ciruitous route and no seat belt and all the time on the way, I cannot get over how absolutely limp the guy's body was as they dragged him to the wagon. He looked grossly injured when they loaded him into the wagon. Perhaps all this study of the route the vehicle took is a diversion from trying to understand the first part of the incident before he was even near the vehicle.

 

[tupac chopra]

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

The police could have done it.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-break-your-own-spine-like-freddie-gray.html#

 

[dismal]

Some of these theories suggest the van driver is getting screwed by the system.

Is it because he's black? Where's Al Sharpton?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Let's assume police did not take Freddie Gray of a "rough ride". How did his spinal cord get severed and his voice box get crushed?

And why did the police van drive all over town with Freddie Gray in the back pleading for an inhaler or medical attention instead of going straight to the Western District Police Station almost an hour later?

View attachment 2906 http://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduOwLbFYwknq6jK/giphy.gif

Police arrested Freddie Gray on Presbury Street at/very near North Mount Street. From there, they could have driven 7 blocks south to the police station. Instead Officer Caesar Goodson drove those 7 blocks south, plus another 7 blocks east of the police station. We don't know the exact route he took (to determine if it was one filled with many multiple turns or not), but it was certainly a strange detour, made all the more suspicious by the fact that Officer Goodson did not call it in as he was required to do.

Next, Goodson drives another five blocks east to Druid Hill Avenue and Dolphin Street on a route that cannot be reached in a straight line. This time when he stops, he does call it in.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ts-what-we-know-about-the-freddie-gray-arrest

So now they drive all the way back north very close to their original starting point where they pick up the second prisoner at West North Avenue approximately 2 blocks east of North Mount Street. This is where Officer Alicia White finds Freddie Gray unresponsive, but still no one calls for medical assistance. Instead they drive both prisoners to the Western District Police Station, but it is too late for Freddie Gray.

So, let's assume no "rough ride". Anyone want to speculate about how Freddie Gray's neck got broken and/or why the mystery detour?

P.S. I would also like for someone to post a link to the source that says this bolt was on the back door of the van. Every source I've read says "in the back of the van" which could be anywhere within the space holding Freddie Gray

Why bother with the facts when it is so much easier to literally make excuses out of thin air for the police?

Maybe Billy was driving.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It does if you are weighted down, you'll pivot forward, then back... you know, like when stopping quickly in a car with your seatbelts on. You'll shift forward, but then back.

Please turn in your engineering license.


The shift back when stopping quickly is due to your own muscles counteracting the shift forward, the car itself doesn't throw you backwards at all. Consider what happens to loose things in that sudden stop--they slide forward, period. This is not followed by sliding back.

I'm sorry, was he free of muscles?

That said, there are a lot of arguments in here trying to disprove what has happened. He suffered a substantial injury, and you are fretting the details of how it could happen. What is the alleged Native proverb about not wondering how an arrow got into your chest?

 

[thebeave]

Actually, don't you mean little Billy? Jeffy is the one who's always in PJs I think.

 

[Rhea]

1. If you have a car that is breaking rapidly, there will come a point at which the tires grip completely, but the suspension continues to travel, loading up the springs as the weight lurches forward. The suspension then releases that energy, throwing the occupants backwards. Try it. Try slamming on your brakes hard and coming to a full stop suddenly. If your car does NOT rock backwards with a fair amount of speed, then you need to change your springs.

Rock backwards????

When the springs give up their stored energy the front of the car goes up. While that will cause a slight backwards motion as the car rotates on an axis through the rear wheels the amount is very small. The radius of the rotation is the distance between the front and rear wheels. Since I don't know what they were in I'll use my car for the math--this distance is 110 inches. I have not looked at the mounting mechanism but I do not believe it could have more than about 6 inches of downward motion without causing ground strikes (and likely has less.) This give an angle of 3.1 degrees, the backwards travel is 110 * (1 - cos(3.1)) = .16 inches. The height above the axle actually has a bigger effect but the small angle means this effect is still pretty small. Lacking any reasonable figures for this I'm not even going to try the math.

Turn in your engineering license, Loren. Massive fail.
Try it. Just go get in a van and squat in the back and try to stay upright while someone does this.
Try it.

I did, today while considering how many people were posting on this thread thinking there is no way to fall towards the rear of the vehicle. There are several ways, ALL of which are probably tried by an asshole driver trying to knock a passenger about.

I mean, for the love of reason, how many cops have issued "failure to stop at a stop sign" citations by claiming you didn't come to a complete stop because they didn't see your car rock back.


Also, you may not think that spring action is very violent, but I personally know 3 people who have put their cars on the roof (or, well, two of them flipped all the way back to the tires) using ONLY that action of the springs. Google autocross (Solo II) events where a car in a slalom starts to act in resonance with the springs and by the 4th cone they have, on utterly flat pavement and with no curbs, using only the steering wheel to load up the springs, rolled their car completely over. Those springs are much more powerful than apparently you are able to calculate.

You mean the inhaler?

8:40 a.m.
Inhaler RequestedMs. Mosby said the officers handcuffed Mr. Gray and placed him face down. Mr. Gray said he could not breathe and requested an inhaler, but does not receive one, Ms. Mosby said.

Except if what killed him was the bolt to the neck, then the inhaler wasn't a part of the problem. But the cops will have to explain if they saw him unconscious in the back and did nothing.

Again, the bolt injury to the head was NOT the fatal injury as far as what has been reported. It was, rather, an additional injury to the head that existed that showed he was getting tossed about in the back of the van. A different fatal injury also existed to the neck.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ricochet into the back of the vehicle? <ROTFL>

Being forcefully thrown? I assume you mean by the cops--it would be pretty hard for them to throw him against the back of the vehicle.

Or slam the door on head? WE can ROLFL because an innocent man died at that as well I suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

What? What exactly is it that you think these nickel rides are? Are you seriously ignoring the entire concept simply to focus on someone's usage of the word "breaking"? I get that you want to obfuscate the matter by moving the focus of the discussion to trivial irrelevancies, but don't you think that you're overdoing it a little bit in this case?

Just because cops sometimes give prisoners a rough ride doesn't mean that this injury must be due to a rough ride. The key factor here is the location of the bolt--not in a location that could reasonably inflict serious injury due to a rough ride.

So you approve of rough riding the individual?

I do not approve of rough riding or other such street justice. I'm just questioning whether it could have caused the injury in question given the location of the offending bolt.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, let's just say the rough ride didn't sever Freddie's spine . . . what did?

1) We have a report of spinal surgery. Admittedly, not good but neither has it been disproven.

2) We have a report of him banging around in the transport. He could have slipped and fallen, or he could have fallen when the vehicle started if he was standing up.

- - - Updated - - -

No irony meter could measure that one.

If he's facing backwards that has absolutely no effect on whether he can be thrown into the bolt on the back of the van. All it would do is change the location of the injury.

You are the one who said it was impossible to be thrown backwards when a vehicle stops. Your claim made no reference to the facts of the case. So your claim was literally wrong. And as others have demonstrated, your claim is wrong even with respect to the facts of the case.

Instead of literally making up excuses without regards to the facts or reason, why don't you let the actual facts speak for themselves?

How about quitting trying to twist what I say?

It's obvious I was referring to "backwards" in terms of the vehicle's facing, not his facing. The issue is a bolt in the back of the vehicle, the only way to strike that is to be moving in a direction that is backwards relative to the vehicle.

 

[Rhea]

Despite this ciruitous route and no seat belt and all the time on the way, I cannot get over how absolutely limp the guy's body was as they dragged him to the wagon. He looked grossly injured when they loaded him into the wagon. Perhaps all this study of the route the vehicle took is a diversion from trying to understand the first part of the incident before he was even near the vehicle.

I agree with this huge question. If he was partly injured already, a dislocation of that injury could cause the final to-be-fatal severance of the chord. But there does appear to be evidence that, yeah, it could have been the beat-up of the arrest by the three bike cops and it just went to hell in the back of the rough ride van from there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please turn in your engineering license.


The shift back when stopping quickly is due to your own muscles counteracting the shift forward, the car itself doesn't throw you backwards at all. Consider what happens to loose things in that sudden stop--they slide forward, period. This is not followed by sliding back.

I'm sorry, was he free of muscles?

That said, there are a lot of arguments in here trying to disprove what has happened. He suffered a substantial injury, and you are fretting the details of how it could happen. What is the alleged Native proverb about not wondering how an arrow got into your chest?

Straightening yourself after hard braking isn't going to be done so hard that you break your spine on a bolt behind you.