Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Rhea]

It's obvious I was referring to "backwards" in terms of the vehicle's facing, not his facing. The issue is a bolt in the back of the vehicle, the only way to strike that is to be moving in a direction that is backwards relative to the vehicle.

And of course there is NO WAY the driver would have put the van into the gear labeled "R," accelerated and then slammed on the brakes.


Come on, Loren, there are many ways this could have been done by the driver.

 

[Rhea]

I'm sorry, was he free of muscles?

That said, there are a lot of arguments in here trying to disprove what has happened. He suffered a substantial injury, and you are fretting the details of how it could happen. What is the alleged Native proverb about not wondering how an arrow got into your chest?

Straightening yourself after hard braking isn't going to be done so hard that you break your spine on a bolt behind you.

Read. Loren. READ!!! No one has claimed that the injury from the bolt is the one that broke his spine.

Holy shit, this is how excuses are done, is it? Ignore the actual evidence and refute some made-up version of the evidence that you think is easily refuted (even though that is sadly done anyway)?


The report said that the broken neck injury was a hyperflexion one - like your chin flying up and back as in someone who was punched in the jaw. That direction. Exactly what you'd expect in the diagram of the van if he were pitched forward face-first against the wall.

The report went on the say that the bolt injury was an additional injury that showed he was being tossed about in the van.

Then,
add 2 + 2.
See if you can still only come up with the square root of -3, because that's what it sounds like you are selling.

 

[Arctish]

After a few minutes without an inhaler, someone suffering from an asthma attack can be dead.

But sure, it is possible breathing returned to normal. But a person on a prone position (not good for asthma) and nonresponsive
might not be recovered from that asthma attack. They might be dead. Even without a spinal cord injury.

That wasn't the case here, the death came from the neck hitting the bolt. The argument for and against will be what caused that with both sides giving different opinions or the defense accepting plea bargains.

I don't think anyone has said it was the bolt that caused the fatal injury. The injury from the bolt is evidence Gray was injured while in the back of the van. It is evidence he was being tossed about because he was in handcuffs and leg restraints but was not secured with a seat belt. It is evidence of a failure to perform a mandatory action (securing the passenger with a seat belt) required under Maryland law. And it is evidence of ill-will on the part of the police who knew such a failure could result in serious injury even without a rough ride.

 

[RavenSky]

The key factor here is the location of the bolt--not in a location that could reasonably inflict serious injury due to a rough ride.

I'm just questioning whether it could have caused the injury in question given the location of the offending bolt.

Please provide a link to your source for the exact location of the "offending" bolt. TQ

 

[Nice Squirrel]

As well as physical evidence of this previous surgery.

 

[Arctish]

Some of these theories suggest the van driver is getting screwed by the system.

Is it because he's black? Where's Al Sharpton?

Um, guys?

I think I've found out who's been playing the race card in this thread.

 

[Axulus]

Perhaps the actions that the officers deemed as Freddie being "uncooperative" were actually attempts to obtain medical aid.

I'm struggling with the argument that he was asking for medical aid at the time he was arrested for a broken neck that occurred later in the van.

Did you forget about the stop where he was taken out and put in leg cuffs? He very plausibly was banging around to tell them that he was in severe pain and needed medical help.

 

[Rhea]

What? A guy with a crushed voice box was banging for attention? Cuff him!

 

[coloradoatheist]

Straightening yourself after hard braking isn't going to be done so hard that you break your spine on a bolt behind you.

Read. Loren. READ!!! No one has claimed that the injury from the bolt is the one that broke his spine.

Holy shit, this is how excuses are done, is it? Ignore the actual evidence and refute some made-up version of the evidence that you think is easily refuted (even though that is sadly done anyway)?


The report said that the broken neck injury was a hyperflexion one - like your chin flying up and back as in someone who was punched in the jaw. That direction. Exactly what you'd expect in the diagram of the van if he were pitched forward face-first against the wall.

The report went on the say that the bolt injury was an additional injury that showed he was being tossed about in the van.

Then,
add 2 + 2.
See if you can still only come up with the square root of -3, because that's what it sounds like you are selling.

Do you have a copy of the report? Where was the bolt, on the floor or on the door?

 

[laughing dog]

How about quitting trying to twist what I say?

You wrote what you wrote. You are responsible for the imprecise wording in your posts and your ridiculous claims of "fact" and your twisting of reason to come up with an "explanation" that absolves the police of their responsibilities.

 

[Rhea]

The report said that the broken neck injury was a hyperflexion one - like your chin flying up and back as in someone who was punched in the jaw. That direction. Exactly what you'd expect in the diagram of the van if he were pitched forward face-first against the wall.

The report went on the say that the bolt injury was an additional injury that showed he was being tossed about in the van.

Do you have a copy of the report? Where was the bolt, on the floor or on the door?

I am going by the announcement of the DA. A link was earlier in this thread. She said that an injury from a bolt that was in the back of the van (maybe "back door") showed evidence of movement in the van that should never be allowed to happen to a prisoner.

I'll do a quick glance for the link, but it was something posted in this thread.

this link quotes a source in teh ME office.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/

The sources quoted by the Washington-based station said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death was caused by a catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van while inside it, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van."

It is not as clearly stated in this quote. But I don't think even this one claims that only a single impact happened.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Do you have a copy of the report? Where was the bolt, on the floor or on the door?

I am going by the announcement of the DA. A link was earlier in this thread. She said that an injury from a bolt that was in the back of the van (maybe "back door") showed evidence of movement in the van that should never be allowed to happen to a prisoner.

I'll do a quick glance for the link, but it was something posted in this thread.

this link quotes a source in teh ME office.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/

The sources quoted by the Washington-based station said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death was caused by a catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van while inside it, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van."

It is not as clearly stated in this quote. But I don't think even this one claims that only a single impact happened.

Unfortunately there has been several summaries of it and some saying not true of others, so it's hard with the reporting. What I have seen is that the bolt injury is supposedly the only injury reported. If that's the case than the rough ride would be called into question because a rough ride would show bruises and damages to multiple areas on the body. Also we have conflicting reports of what the other prisoner said. The cops look very guilty but I think it needs to go to trial so we get all the evidence and testimony and not just third hand of third hand giving us information.

 

[Rhea]

Unfortunately there has been several summaries of it and some saying not true of others, so it's hard with the reporting.

true. Our discussion would be better with a copy of the ME report, but that is doubtless months away.

What I have seen is that the bolt injury is supposedly the only injury reported.

well, and a broken neck with nearly severed spinal cord.

If that's the case than the rough ride would be called into question because a rough ride would show bruises and damages to multiple areas on the body. Also we have conflicting reports of what the other prisoner said.

Well, conflicting between what the cops say he said and what HE says he said.

The cops look very guilty but I think it needs to go to trial so we get all the evidence and testimony and not just third hand of third hand giving us information.

Totally agree. I am not advocating any disruption of the trial process. (is anyone?) (Well, besides the Fraternal Order of the Police?)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How about quitting trying to twist what I say?

You wrote what you wrote. You are responsible for the imprecise wording in your posts and your ridiculous claims of "fact" and your twisting of reason to come up with an "explanation" that absolves the police of their responsibilities.

Now you're pretending you didn't twist what I said.

 

[RavenSky]

Do you have a copy of the report? Where was the bolt, on the floor or on the door?

I am going by the announcement of the DA. A link was earlier in this thread. She said that an injury from a bolt that was in the back of the van (maybe "back door") showed evidence of movement in the van that should never be allowed to happen to a prisoner.

I'll do a quick glance for the link, but it was something posted in this thread.

this link quotes a source in teh ME office.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/

The sources quoted by the Washington-based station said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death was caused by a catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van while inside it, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van."

It is not as clearly stated in this quote. But I don't think even this one claims that only a single impact happened.

I agree that there doesn't seem to be an implication of a single impact with a bolt killed him, but I think there is an assumption in this thread that the bolt was in the back door. An assumption for which I have still not been able to find any news source stating explicitly "back door" of the van.

 

[laughing dog]

You wrote what you wrote. You are responsible for the imprecise wording in your posts and your ridiculous claims of "fact" and your twisting of reason to come up with an "explanation" that absolves the police of their responsibilities.

Now you're pretending you didn't twist what I said.

Yet another example of you confusing your assumptions with fact.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You wrote what you wrote. You are responsible for the imprecise wording in your posts and your ridiculous claims of "fact" and your twisting of reason to come up with an "explanation" that absolves the police of their responsibilities.

Now you're pretending you didn't twist what I said.

Please! This coming from the king of the reply to a single sentence of a five paragraph post.

 

[Trausti]

Page Croyder spent 21 years in the Baltimore state's attorneys office, most recently as a deputy state's attorney.

In fact, Ms. Mosby was so hasty it appears she locked up two completely innocent officers. She charged Freddie Gray’s arresting officers with “false imprisonment” because she said the knife that Gray had on him was legal. In fact, as The Sun reported, the Police Task Force found it to be illegal after all. It was Ms. Mosby who had no probable cause to lock the arresting officers up, an injustice she could have easily avoided by taking her time.

Whoops.

If I were a Baltimore police officer, I'd be looking for another job immediately. And as a Baltimore citizen, I may start looking for someplace else to live. When the police cannot depend upon the state's attorney to be as thorough, competent, non-political and fair with them as she is supposed to be with all citizens, none of us will be safe.

Ouch.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-freddie-gray-mosby-20150505-story.html

 

[Toni]

In fact, Ms. Mosby was so hasty it appears she locked up two completely innocent officers. She charged Freddie Gray’s arresting officers with “false imprisonment” because she said the knife that Gray had on him was legal. In fact, as The Sun reported, the Police Task Force found it to be illegal after all. It was Ms. Mosby who had no probable cause to lock the arresting officers up, an injustice she could have easily avoided by taking her time.

Whoops.

If I were a Baltimore police officer, I'd be looking for another job immediately. And as a Baltimore citizen, I may start looking for someplace else to live. When the police cannot depend upon the state's attorney to be as thorough, competent, non-political and fair with them as she is supposed to be with all citizens, none of us will be safe.

Ouch.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-freddie-gray-mosby-20150505-story.html

Just in case anybody missed it: the above is from an opinion piece.

 

[Trausti]

Whoops.

If I were a Baltimore police officer, I'd be looking for another job immediately. And as a Baltimore citizen, I may start looking for someplace else to live. When the police cannot depend upon the state's attorney to be as thorough, competent, non-political and fair with them as she is supposed to be with all citizens, none of us will be safe.

Ouch.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-freddie-gray-mosby-20150505-story.html

Just in case anybody missed it: the above is from an opinion piece.

Which is why I posted this but you cut it out:

Page Croyder spent 21 years in the Baltimore state's attorneys office, most recently as a deputy state's attorney.