Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

The long term threat of violence for Israelis is an awful thing. The suicide bombings were dreadful. And yes, Israel is unlikely to just lob weapons into Gaza like Hamas would. Most likely because Israel's weapons would be likely to reach the ground/target where as Hamas would merely be intercepted. Israel isn't looking for a fight, but those in power due to the fractured government aren't exactly looking for peace.

But we need to stop at this point. As your post didn't address my poat at all. There is no doubt Israelis have had to live with fear over a long period of time. That isn't justice. Of course, if some radical Zionist marches into Gaza and murders a Gazan, those be bad apples and rarely reported.

To stop it is to ask for another 10/7. Israel isn't willing to accept that.

And if a zionist marches into Gaza and starts killing it most certainly would be reported. It's just they cry wolf enough that it might not be noticed.

This is a rat race that ends when people stop killing. Justfying more killing because of past killing, instead of strategic gain for Israel security, is just green lighting senseless perpetual killing.

Destroying Hamas tunnels is gaining security for Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The last I heard, opinions about Hamas in Gaza were as divided as Americans' opinions about Biden. Congrats on allowing yourself to be bamboozled. I suppose all Americans are wealthy now too. Stereotypes sir. You seem to suggest that there is a lack of concern for Israeli civilians. Could you please clarify the source of your fervent and intense enthusiasm and conviction. Based on the comments in this thread, it seems everyone is in favor of ending Hamas. I haven't noticed anyone expressing support for Hamas here. Nor have I seen anyone post anything anti sematic. Did I miss something?

Nobody is openly supporting Hamas. However, many are blaming Israel for Hamas actions. That's indirect support for Hamas.

As previously mentioned, unless Israel is willing to accept Gaza as a hub of animosity, they must exercise extreme caution in their approach to Hamas. There are no straightforward solutions. In fact, any seemingly simple solution is likely the wrong one.

Israel knows Gaza will remain a hub of animosity. They're trying to minimize how much that animosity converts into dead Israelis.

 

[Gospel]

However, many are blaming Israel for Hamas actions.

Well those many, whoever or wherever they are are simply wrong.

Israel knows Gaza will remain a hub of animosity. They're trying to minimize how much that animosity converts into dead Israelis.

Children getting killed by the IDF is not going to work. Blaming Hamas for children getting killed by the IDF won't work either.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Maybe if Muslims stopped the violent attacks for a couple of generations Israelis would have a different cultural attitude.

I feel like MAGA would like a word here…

(speaking of 2 peaceful generations NOT resulting in a cessation of hate…)

Might you be a little less cryptic?

I see Hamas as similar to the Teaparty leadership encouraging hate and violence by lying to their supporters. And Gazans as MAGAts, because they believe the lies to the point of their own destruction.
Tom

(Edited to change “Israelis” to “Israeli Government” for accuracy.

Sorry. What I meant was that

Northerners in America have not been killing Southerners for lo, these 150 years (much more than 2 generations). And still the MAGAs despise the “Northern Coastal Elites” and call in death threats and harm While waving their giant Confederate flags.

So the idea that “if Muslims stopped violent attacks for 2 generations, Israelis would have a different cultural attitude,” does not appear supported by the US or many other histories.

Your argument applies more so in the other direction. It didn't start out with Jewish hate of Muslims, but it did start out with Muslim hate of Jews.

Israel is a porcupine. You leave them alone, they leave you alone. It's just the Muslim world keeps throwing cannon fodder at said porcupine and then pointing out how bloody it is.

Still, if you believe that to be a path forward, and maybe it is, maybe the Israeli Government could try not bulldozing Palestinian farmlad and building apartments on it in the West Bank and forcing the Palestinian landowners into refugee camps, or something.

Huh? It's the Muslims that are doing the forcing into refugee camps.

It’s no guarantee of safety in that route, but it is a possibility; and to claim that the Israeli Government are the ONLY victims here is to whitewash many years of actions that are harming peace.

Their actions are not harming peace because there was never a prospect of peace in the first place. Zero reduced to zero. The war in EastAsia is simply too valuable to the Muslim governments.

That’s something that I really don’t understand - the vehement claims that the Israeli Government has done NOTHING wrong and have NEVER agitated in a way that harms the peace process, and there fore have nothing to change.

That plumb baffles me.

Nobody has said they have done nothing wrong. It's just that people keep blaming Israel for things that are due to the actions of the Palestinians.

Israel has bowed to western pressure and tried to make peace. It has always ended badly for Israel, pushing their government more towards the hawk side. Yet we do nothing about trying to get the Palestinians to make peace--because there's nothing we can do. Searching for your keys (peace) under the streetlight (Israel) doesn't work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes!
Hamas kills Palestinians a lot!
Israel doesn't.
Israel doesn't kill Palestinians unless they have been put in harm's way by Islamic extremists.
Tom

Wait. You think Isreal doesn’t kill Palestinians “unless they have been put in ahrms way by Hamas”?

And the ones who have died in the refugee camps that Isreal told them to go to… ???

Really?

You think Hamas doesn't attack from within refugee camps???

Israel told the civilian population to get out of the way of the bombing of things (presumably tunnels) they wanted to hit. That doesn't mean Israel is going to not shoot at rocket launchers and the like in other areas.

 

[Gospel]

Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields to get away with killing civilians and the Israeli Government is using Hamas as human shields to get away with killing civilians.

 

[Gospel]

I'm not the kind of bigot that thinks I can fix a place like Gaza.
Tom

Well at least you know you're a bigot. I'll give you that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The long term threat of violence for Israelis is an awful thing. The suicide bombings were dreadful. And yes, Israel is unlikely to just lob weapons into Gaza like Hamas would. Most likely because Israel's weapons would be likely to reach the ground/target where as Hamas would merely be intercepted. Israel isn't looking for a fight, but those in power due to the fractured government aren't exactly looking for peace.

But we need to stop at this point. As your post didn't address my poat at all. There is no doubt Israelis have had to live with fear over a long period of time. That isn't justice. Of course, if some radical Zionist marches into Gaza and murders a Gazan, those be bad apples and rarely reported.

To stop it is to ask for another 10/7.

I'm pretty certain that stopping the response to look at the fallacy in their response to me will not impact Gaza or Israel much.

This is a rat race that ends when people stop killing. Justfying more killing because of past killing, instead of strategic gain for Israel security, is just green lighting senseless perpetual killing.

Destroying Hamas tunnels is gaining security for Israel.

Destroying the tunnels would help. How many more bombs do they need to destroy the tunnels?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For someone who isn't targeting civilians, the IDF does a damn good job of killing them in quantities that vastly outnumber Hamas victims. Right now the ration of Gazan civilian causalities to Isreali ones is between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.

I find the biased blindness of this accusation infuriating, myself.
There are two main categories of victims here. The Israeli victims of the terrorist attack on 10/7 and the Gazans used as human shields by the terrorists. Virtually every casualty is the predictable result of Hamas' violence and disregard for any human life at all.
Nor is this a new development. Islamic extremists have been operating this way for decades. Hamas is just the latest iteration of that.

I'd say that can be broken into many more divisions.
Victims:

• Israeli victims of 10/7 attack
• Gaza victims
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas infrastructure
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting low level Hamas fighters
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting high level Hamas officials
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting top level Hamas officials
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas officials responsible for 10/7 attack
  • IDF attack mistake
  • Hamas or local militia fuck up
  • Hamas or local militia intentional targeting of Gazans

The question to be asked is "Is the outcome worth the collateral cost of heightened extremism and recruitment?" IE, is the target valuable enough that'll it will overwhelm the potential radicalization of future Gazans to fight for Hamas (or whomever else) and its relative impact on Israeli security.

Just because collateral damage is a reality, doesn't mean it comes with no greater cost. Let's strap you in Gaza a young adult, spending the first 18 years of you life in Gaza between 2005 and 2023, and see how your worldview is impacted by the media vacuum and poverty.

Collateral damage has basically no effect on the threat posed by the terrorists. That's entirely a function of the money poured into the terrorism.

You need money, explosives, and people. The collateral damage helps supply the people.

While Gaza currently I believe has the highest rate of damage it is nowhere near the worst in terms of average rate.

Well, I guess I need to go back to college to be able to make sense of that mathematically. Also, none of that changes the logic behind what I said, 'is the collateral damage worth it?' Are they making enough of a difference to protect Israeli security.

And based on comments coming out from senior conservative people in the Israeli government, they are implying that this is about permanent displacement of Gazans, not tunnels.

 

[TV and credit cards]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ander-soleimanis-tomb-anniversary-2024-01-03/

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Read about that. Sounds oddly random.

 

[lpetrich]

From a month ago: One of the three Palestinian-American students shot in Vermont is paralyzed | Vermont | The Guardian - "Twenty-year-old Hisham Awartani paralyzed from the chest down after a bullet lodged in his spine, his family says"

However, "Tahseen Ali Ahmad, who attends Haverford College in Pennsylvania, and Kinnan Abdalhamid, who attends Trinity College in Connecticut, were expected to make a full recovery."

Titled link: More than 100 killed in 'terrorist attacks' near tomb of Iranian Guards' Soleimani | Reuters

• Iran vows to track down attackers after more than 100 killed
• Blasts target people commemorating commander killed by U.S.
• No claim of responsibility so far for the attacks
• Islamic State, other groups have claimed attacks in the past

...
In 2022, the Sunni Muslim militant group Islamic State claimed responsibility for a deadly attack on a Shi'ite shrine in Iran which killed 15 people.

Earlier attacks claimed by the group include deadly twin bombings in 2017 which targeted Iran's parliament and the tomb of the Islamic Republic's founder Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. Baluchi militants and ethnic Arab separatists have also staged attacks in Iran.

The Taliban promised to provide security to Afghans. New data shows threat from ISIS is growing | CNN

Qasim received a call in late March that his brother, an employee with Afghanistan’s Taliban government, had been seriously injured in a suicide bombing near the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kabul.

The 32-year-old rushed to the hospital with his family, but when they got there he was told by the doctors his brother was already dead.

The explosion hit a security checkpoint as government employees were leaving work for the day. It struck at the heart of what was, until the collapse of the former Afghan government in August 2021, the capital’s heavily fortified diplomatic enclave, known as the “Green Zone.” The attack was later claimed by Islamic State Khorasan, or ISIS-K — the group’s second strike on the ministry this year, as it focuses its firepower on high-profile targets, attempting to undermine the Taliban’s rule and erode public confidence in its assurances of security.

 

[Copernicus]

Destroying the tunnels would help. How many more bombs do they need to destroy the tunnels?

I think that a more important question before they blow up more tunnels would be which tunnels have surviving Israeli hostages being held by Hamas. The safety of all civilians--Palestinian and Israeli--should be the paramount concern, not blowing up tunnels.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The tunnels bother me a lot. The UN should be abandoning the tunnels. Using bombs at the surface is ridiculous.

 

[laughing dog]

Maybe if M

Nobody has said they have done nothing wrong. It's just that people keep blaming Israel for things that are due to the actions of the Palestinians.

People are holding the gov't of Israel responsible for its choices. You know, how some people do with criminals and the poor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suppose Israel offered to stop attacking Gaza if IDF personnel had access to all of Gaza. All of it, search and destroy, get rid of everything they consider a threat to Israelis.

I have heard an Israeli spokesman make that basic offer. It's no more realistic than Hamas's offer to stop killing Jews if Israel dissolves itself...

They're facing an overwhelming force and are being offered peace with no concessions other than disarmament. Any sane government would accept that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's evident that the Palestinian situation today is largely a result of Hamas gaining power through deceit. Once in power, the reality of their governance turned out to be disastrously different from what was promised, leaving the Palestinians trapped. With Hamas armed by Iran, the Palestinians found themselves oppressed not only by Israel but also by Hamas. There was a critical moment when Israel could have significantly supported a Palestinian uprising. However, instead of seizing this opportunity, their actions inadvertently helped maintain Hamas' hold on power. Take that however the fuck you want.

Deceit? Hamas was known to stand for war when they were elected. They might not have been elected on that basis, but the people knew what they were getting. And the support for the path of war remains very high.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup. They want dead civilians to parade before the world press. They don't want to die.

So why does Israel help them zchieve their gosl?

Because smashing Hamas as much as possible is more important. The more smashing, the longer before Hamas pulls another atrocity.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Suppose Israel offered to stop attacking Gaza if IDF personnel had access to all of Gaza. All of it, search and destroy, get rid of everything they consider a threat to Israelis.

I have heard an Israeli spokesman make that basic offer. It's no more realistic than Hamas's offer to stop killing Jews if Israel dissolves itself...

They're facing an overwhelming force and are being offered peace with no concessions other than disarmament. Any sane government would accept that.

Yeah, that is why Ukraine agreed to that with Russia. Ukraine disarms, and they get peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are those atrocities breeding anti-Muslim armies? No--because nobody is funding them.

Fa sho. The lack of prompt and suitable assistance has contributed to various issues that are now major concerns for European governments. This situation highlights a pattern where these governments excel in creating problems but falter in identifying effective solutions. The experiences of Israeli and Palestinian citizens stand as a stark testament to this dynamic. It seems European governments are fond of funding the wrong damn team.

Huh? There has been cooperation in hunting the terrorists (Boko Haram), and basically nothing at all when it's a state actor. What I'm saying is nobody is pouring money into anti-Muslim terrorist groups so the death tolls that add a zero or more to Gaza don't cause genocidal groups to spring up. Terrorism is a function of money, not of retaliation.