Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

Blood libel?

•  Blood libel
• Blood Libel at the Jewish Virtual Library
• Blood Libel | Holocaust Encyclopedia

That's the notion that Jews kill non-Jewish children to get their blood for matzo bread and the like.

Bertrand Russell, in "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish":

This myth-making faculty is often allied with cruelty. Ever since the Middle Ages, the Jews have been accused of practising ritual murder. There is not an iota of evidence for this accusation, and no sane person who has examined it believes it. Nevertheless it persists. I have met White Russians who were convinced of its truth, and among many Nazis it is accepted without question. Such myths give an excuse for the infliction of torture, and the unfounded belief in them is evidence of the unconscious desire to find some victim to persecute.

White Russians - Russians that fought the Bolshevik "Reds" and who often ended up leaving Russia.

Actually, Byelorusians, not Russians. They left their homeland, not Russia. It had been an occupied country that was incorporated into the Russian empire. They, like Poles and Ukrainians, were fighting for their independence after the collapse of the Russian empire. Trotsky's Red Army managed to reclaim much of that territory, although it was kicked out of Poland. Then Stalin pushed the borders of Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and Byelorussia west in order to expand Lebensraum for ethnic Russians after WWII. The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR) came out as the big ethnic winner in all of that.

 

[Harry Bosch]

This is heartbreaking.  2018–2019 Gaza border protests

The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return ... were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019, in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians. The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel. They protested against Israel's land, air and sea blockade of the Gaza Strip and the United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

The first demonstrations were organized by independent activists, but the initiative was soon endorsed by Hamas, the rulers of the Gaza Strip, as well as other major factions in Gaza. ...

Thirty thousand Palestinians participated in the first demonstration on 30 March. Larger protests took place on the following Fridays, 6 April, 13 April, 20 April, 27 April, 4 May, and 11 May — each of which involved at least 10,000 demonstrators — while smaller numbers attended activities during the week. ...

Most of the demonstrators demonstrated peacefully far from the border fence. Peter Cammack, a fellow with the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, argued that the march indicated a new trend in Palestinian society and Hamas, with a shift away from violence towards non-violent forms of protest. Nevertheless, groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials said the demonstrations were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.

Casualties:

• Palestinians: 223 killed, 9,204 injured
• Israelis: 0 or 1 killed, 4 or 11 wounded (6 soldiers, 5 civilians)

The greatest obstacle for peace between Israel and Palestinians is the so called "right of return". The Israel right wingers and Palestinians demanding it are killing peace. There is no universal right of return for anyone else. American Indians don't have it. Israelis Jews don't have it when they were kicked out Europe, Russia, and the mid east countries. Approximately 7 million Syrians have been evicted from their country in their crazy religious war, no one cares. There is no right of return in Asia, Africa or Europe. 600,000 Abzajerons (sp) were kicked out of their ancestorial homes last year, no one gave a damn.

Long term peace will only be obtained when there is a sovereign state for Palestinians and a sovereign state for Israelis and both sides quit demanding the right to take someone else's home.

 

[Gospel]

Long term peace will only be obtained when there is a sovereign state for Palestinians and a sovereign state for Israelis and both sides quit demanding the right to take someone else's home.

And they'll never do that until foreign nations quit meddling in their affairs. This whole debacle happened because a bunch of uppity Europeans created a country out of a piece of toilet paper, then campaigned for international sympathy along with a turd called special interests to support it. They've (or should I say we've) been using Jewish people as human shields to launch an agenda.

 

[lpetrich]

Bertrand Russell, in "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish":

This myth-making faculty is often allied with cruelty. Ever since the Middle Ages, the Jews have been accused of practising ritual murder. There is not an iota of evidence for this accusation, and no sane person who has examined it believes it. Nevertheless it persists. I have met White Russians who were convinced of its truth, and among many Nazis it is accepted without question. Such myths give an excuse for the infliction of torture, and the unfounded belief in them is evidence of the unconscious desire to find some victim to persecute.

White Russians - Russians that fought the Bolshevik "Reds" and who often ended up leaving Russia.

Actually, Byelorusians, not Russians. ...
[/QUOTE]
 White movement - "During the Russian Civil War, the White movement functioned as a big-tent political movement representing an array of political opinions in Russia united in their opposition to the Bolsheviks—from the republican-minded liberals and Kerenskyite social democrats on the left through monarchists and supporters of a united multinational Russia to the ultra-nationalist Black Hundreds on the right."

 

[lpetrich]

Bertrand Russell, in "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish":

This myth-making faculty is often allied with cruelty. Ever since the Middle Ages, the Jews have been accused of practising ritual murder. There is not an iota of evidence for this accusation, and no sane person who has examined it believes it. Nevertheless it persists. I have met White Russians who were convinced of its truth, and among many Nazis it is accepted without question. Such myths give an excuse for the infliction of torture, and the unfounded belief in them is evidence of the unconscious desire to find some victim to persecute.

White Russians - Russians that fought the Bolshevik "Reds" and who often ended up leaving Russia.

Actually, Byelorusians, not Russians. ...

 White movement - "During the Russian Civil War, the White movement functioned as a big-tent political movement representing an array of political opinions in Russia united in their opposition to the Bolsheviks—from the republican-minded liberals and Kerenskyite social democrats on the left through monarchists and supporters of a united multinational Russia to the ultra-nationalist Black Hundreds on the right."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Deceit? Hamas was known to stand for war when they were elected

Hamas campaigned on ending the occupation. Then, rather than end the occupation they became occupiers.

Which doesn't change the point. Both sides knew that a vote for Hamas was a vote for war.

They might not have been elected on that basis, but the people knew what they were getting.

The people voted for what they thought at the time was the lesser of two evils. Regarding Hamas' stance on conflict, at the time when polls were conducted (which is no longer the case), two-thirds of the populace expressed a desire for Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Because they didn't know how bad war would turn out.

And beware of "Israel's right to exist"--there were a lot of Palestinians that supported Israel's right to exist elsewhere. Just not in the occupied territory--the land from the river to the sea. Never mind that there is no other territory.

And the support for the path of war remains very high.

Yeah, I'm totally sold on the idea that said support remaining "very high" has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas murdering dissenters.

Hamas isn't in a position to murder many dissenters in the West Bank. And support for the massacre is higher in the West Bank than in Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.

Is it possible the UN was checking on the status of remaining hostages?

Hamas never let the Red Cross have any access to the hostages. Why would you expect the UN to have access?

Note, however, that the jobs of everyone working for the UN in Gaza hinge on the conflict continuing. Peace would end their jobs.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the US and Israel had been more strategic, they could have perceived the vote to oust Fatah, coupled with the Palestinian desire for Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, as an opportunity to gain trust with the Palestinian people, diminish Hamas' influence, and with many challenges ahead move towards a two state solution with the people of Israel and Palestine having done away with their corrupt governments. But the US is too busy indulging in its cuck fetish to put Israel in it's place where necessary.

You realize that Fatah actually won the election? Hamas made gains, they didn't get a majority.

It caused a bit of a civil war that ended up with Hamas in control of Gaza and Fatah in control of the West Bank.

And I note it's always about stopping Israel. Never about stopping the terrorists. Never about the terrorist paymasters.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The tunnels bother me a lot. The UN should be abandoning the tunnels. Using bombs at the surface is ridiculous.

Huh?

If the tunnels aren't that deep, what is a bomb achieving that can't be readily repaired? With deeper tunnels, are bombs going to reach them?

You don't just readily repair a collapsed tunnel. It pretty much has to be rebuilt. I don't know how deep the tunnels are but we keep seeing the characteristic pattern that elsewhere would say sinkholes over an underground tunnel where some liquid flowed. (Usually water, but examples exist where it was lava.) Natural cavities aren't so orderly as what we see in Gaza, though.

Israel is using delayed fusing--the bomb punches through the surface and detonates inside the tunnel.

If the tunnel is shallow enough. Also, how accurate does a bomb need to be to hit a 4 ft wide tunnel? How accurate the intel?

A quick search shows a CEP of half a meter for laser guidance. That's good enough most bombs will go into the tunnel--any miss in the tunnel direction is obviously still a hit and a miss to the sides will generally be close enough that the bomb will have broken the tunnel wall even if it didn't score a direct hit.

The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.

Who said the UN was in the tunnels?

Look at the deepest quote in this message. Note your words.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It seems to be overlooked by some that Hamas' initial acts of violence in Gaza were actually directed against Palestinian civilians. Given this reality, it's understandable why many in the U.S. might be puzzled by the question, 'Why don't the Palestinians revolt?

Edit: Why didn't the Jews revolt against the Nazi's during the Holocaust? See how that sounds?

Look at the numbers.

Jews were a small minority. The Gazans are a majority.

The real issue is that the Palestinians support the massacre. They aren't too fond of Hamas but approve of war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.

Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.

Sure, they would like the economy--but that doesn't mean they don't want war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.

Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.

Probably so. But the problem was that Israelis like going to bars after work; and terrorists were blowing them up. The wall has saved many lives (including Palestinian lives).

But you can't ignore the huge death toll from 10/7 and say "but we've saved lives". That is in the math now, that and the new math of Hamas just captures a bunch of hostages to prevent all out gridfire as a result of their latest atrocity. People do get that was the worst part of 10/7, right? Hamas hacked terrorism. Terrorism always adapts. So methods in which to prevent somethings, might actually evolve much worse things.

Which is why Israel is reacting far harder than it normally does. Hamas became a much bigger threat, Israel is doing far more to dismantle their infrastructure.

And as much as some people want to suggest all of these bombings and attacks by IDF have made a difference at all for Israel, Hamas got away with an atrocity. Sure, maybe a few higher ups have died, but not many, no where near what should be needed to account for the actions on 10/7. The victims of 10/7 have not seen justice... and the families of those taken hostage, are still living with a personal hell.

It's not about payback. It's about making it harder for a recurrence.

The wall didn't do fuck all, it was a cheap ass floodwall that appeared to work... until it failed spectacularly.

It did stop a lot of stuff. It just wasn't perfect. I rather suspect the end result of this is going to be Iron Beam permanently in a free-fire mode against anything near the border.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is heartbreaking.  2018–2019 Gaza border protests

The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return ... were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019, in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians. The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel. They protested against Israel's land, air and sea blockade of the Gaza Strip and the United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

The first demonstrations were organized by independent activists, but the initiative was soon endorsed by Hamas, the rulers of the Gaza Strip, as well as other major factions in Gaza. ...

Thirty thousand Palestinians participated in the first demonstration on 30 March. Larger protests took place on the following Fridays, 6 April, 13 April, 20 April, 27 April, 4 May, and 11 May — each of which involved at least 10,000 demonstrators — while smaller numbers attended activities during the week. ...

Most of the demonstrators demonstrated peacefully far from the border fence. Peter Cammack, a fellow with the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, argued that the march indicated a new trend in Palestinian society and Hamas, with a shift away from violence towards non-violent forms of protest. Nevertheless, groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials said the demonstrations were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.

Casualties:

• Palestinians: 223 killed, 9,204 injured
• Israelis: 0 or 1 killed, 4 or 11 wounded (6 soldiers, 5 civilians)

Note the Palestinian casualties are overcounted. Israel was blamed for any injuries/deaths at the time whether or not they were in any way connected.

And of course Hamas endorsed it. They like civilian actions that can be used as a cover for military things. This isn't a shift towards non-violent protest.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Long term peace will only be obtained when there is a sovereign state for Palestinians and a sovereign state for Israelis and both sides quit demanding the right to take someone else's home.

And they'll never do that until foreign nations quit meddling in their affairs. This whole debacle happened because a bunch of uppity Europeans created a country out of a piece of toilet paper, then campaigned for international sympathy along with a turd called special interests to support it. They've (or should I say we've) been using Jewish people as human shields to launch an agenda.

Disagree. That set the stage, but it was Muslim hatred that actually triggered it. The debacle continues because the war in EastAsia is too useful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's not very communicative. No way of knowing what it refers to.

 

[laughing dog]

The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.

Is it possible the UN was checking on the status of remaining hostages?

Hamas never let the Red Cross have any access to the hostages. Why would you expect the UN to have access?[/

Note, however, that the jobs of everyone working for the UN in Gaza hinge on the conflict continuing. Peace would end their jobs.

Peace would end Netanhayu’s job and his radical coalition’s power - something you don’t seem to think matters. Your selective invocation of a rent seeking explanation reflrcts on you more than anyone’s motivations.

 

[Shadowy Man]

That's not very communicative. No way of knowing what it refers to.

You not knowing what it refers to is basically what it refers to.

 

[lpetrich]

Casualties:

• Palestinians: 223 killed, 9,204 injured
• Israelis: 0 or 1 killed, 4 or 11 wounded (6 soldiers, 5 civilians)

Note the Palestinian casualties are overcounted. Israel was blamed for any injuries/deaths at the time whether or not they were in any way connected.

Evidence-free assertion.

 

[lpetrich]

South Africa: Application instituting proceedings and Request for the indication of provisional measures - 192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

The acts and omissions by Israel complained of by South Africa are genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group, that being the part of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip (‘Palestinians in Gaza’). The acts in question include killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. The acts are all attributable to Israel, which has failed to prevent genocide and is committing genocide in manifest violation of the Genocide Convention, and which has also violated and is continuing to violate its other fundamental obligations under the Genocide Convention, including by failing to prevent or punish the direct and public incitement to genocide by senior Israeli officials and others.

...
South Africa is highly cognisant of the fact that acts of genocide are distinct from other violations of international law sanctioned or perpetrated by the Israeli government and military in Gaza — including intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population, civilian objects and buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected; torture; the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare; and other war crimes and crimes against humanity — though there is often a close connection between all such acts.

Then describing how disproportionately murderous and destructive Israel's recent attack on the Gaza Strip has been/

Also also how disproportionately murderous and injurious Israel's response to the Great March of Return is. Like one Israeli soldier admitting that he shot “42 knees in one day”. Also shooting children and health workers and people with disabilities, despite lack of evidence that they posed an imminent threat.

Also the nastiness of Israeli settlers in the West Bank. "Palestinians in the West Bank are also subjected to routine violence by Israeli soldiers and armed settlers." and "Since 7 October 2023, a further 295 Palestinians, including 77 children, have been killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers, and a further 3,803, including 576 children, wounded — many seriously."

"57 hostages are reported to have been killed in Israeli bombardments of Gaza; a further three hostages are confirmed to have been shot dead by Israeli soldiers in Gaza." Some surviving hostages have stated that they feared being killed by Israeli bombs.

"As of 8 December 2023, only one rescue vehicle was reportedly operational in the whole of Gaza, with survivors forced to try to dig for survivors with their bare hands."

Palestinians in Gaza have been killed in their homes, in places where they sought shelter, in hospitals, in UNWRA schools, in churches, in mosques, and as they tried to find food and water for their families. They have been killed if they failed to evacuate, in the places to which they fled, and even while they attempted to flee along Israeli declared “safe routes”. Reports are multiplying of Israeli soldiers performing summary executions, including of multiple members of the same family — men, women and older people. One such account is the reported execution in Gaza City of at least 11 male members of the Annan family and their relatives — boys and men, said to have been separated out by Israeli soldiers and shot in front of their family — before the women and children were then attacked. There are also reports of unarmed people — including Israeli hostages — being shot dead on sight, despite posing no threat, including while waving white flags. Attacks on Palestinian homes and residential blocks account for a significant number of the dead, with Israel reportedly using Artificial Intelligence (‘AI’) to generate up to 100 bombing targets per day.