Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

In much of what is said about the IDF's motives above, the prevailing opinion seems to be that the Gazan civilians who are dying are just collateral damage--that Israel would really just like to target Hamas combatants without going through all the human shields that they throw up in front of them. However, we should not forget that the Netanyahu government has openly expressed its wish for Gaza to be cleansed of Palestinians, the idea being that they should be given a home in the Egyptian side of Gaza. Israel even offered to cancel Egypt's debt if they would sign on to the scheme. So trying to empty the northern half of Gaza of civilians would have the desirable effect of driving them closer to the Egyptian border. And continuing to bombard the south, even after framing it as a kind of "safe haven" from bombing in the north, puts further pressure on the civilian population to get the hell out of Gaza entirely, if they value their lives. So I don't see all of those civilian deaths as necessarily unintended or undesired, at least by the extremist faction in the Israeli government. They also just happen to help with the implementation of a policy goal. And a Gaza Strip emptied of Palestinians would pretty much leave the field open to continue gobbling up the West Bank with Israeli settlers.

 

[TomC]

I'm kinda saying that. In the sense that Hamas is the Gazan leadership.

Yes, they were the elected leadership, but then they forcefully maintained power beyond their term. Come on, aren't you aware of this?

Yes I am.
Do you understand why they are responsible for the bombing of Gaza as a result?
All the death and destruction they caused?
Tom

 

[jonatha]

I'm kinda saying that. In the sense that Hamas is the Gazan leadership.

Yes, they were the elected leadership, but then they forcefully maintained power beyond their term. Come on, aren't you aware of this?

Yes I am.
Do you understand why they are responsible for the bombing of Gaza as a result?
All the death and destruction they caused?
Tom

The basic problem with this approach is that it can be used to justify absolutely any action against Gaza by the IDF. ("Look what you made me do...")

 

[Rhea]

Maybe if Muslims stopped the violent attacks for a couple of generations Israelis would have a different cultural attitude.

I feel like MAGA would like a word here…

(speaking of 2 peaceful generations NOT resulting in a cessation of hate…)

Might you be a little less cryptic?

I see Hamas as similar to the Teaparty leadership encouraging hate and violence by lying to their supporters. And Gazans as MAGAts, because they believe the lies to the point of their own destruction.
Tom

Sorry. What I meant was that

Northerners in America have not been killing Southerners for lo, these 150 years (much more than 2 generations). And still the MAGAs despise the “Northern Coastal Elites” and call in death threats and harm While waving their giant Confederate flags.

So the idea that “if Muslims stopped violent attacks for 2 generations, Israelis would have a different cultural attitude,” does not appear supported by the US or many other histories.

Still, if you believe that to be a path forward, and maybe it is, maybe the Israelis could try not bulldozing Palestinian farmlad and building apartments on it in the West Bank and forcing the Palestinian landowners into refugee camps, or something.


It’s no guarantee of safety in that route, but it is a possibility; and to claim that the Israelis are the ONLY victims here is to whitewash many years of actions that are harming peace.

That’s something that I really don’t understand - the vehement claims that the Israelis have done NOTHING wrong and have NEVER agitated in a way that harms the peace process, and there fore have nothing to change.

That plumb baffles me.

You're referring to the stance of the Israeli government. The Israeli populace holds diverse views on handling this conflict. Many Israelis empathize with the Palestinians, but their ability to effect change is limited, especially with Hamas's actions contributing to the marginalization of the Palestinian people. Some folks just gobble everything up - hook, line, and sinker, and for good measure, they throw in the entire ocean floor as a chaser.

You are correct. My apologies. Thst should read “Israeli Government” in each instance.
I’ll edit it.

 

[TomC]

I'm kinda saying that. In the sense that Hamas is the Gazan leadership.

Yes, they were the elected leadership, but then they forcefully maintained power beyond their term. Come on, aren't you aware of this?

Yes I am.
Do you understand why they are responsible for the bombing of Gaza as a result?
All the death and destruction they caused?
Tom

The basic problem with this approach is that it can be used to justify absolutely any action against Gaza by the IDF. ("Look what you made me do...")

Yes, I do.
Hamas keeps going on with it.

Don't they?

Suppose Israel offered to stop attacking Gaza if IDF personnel had access to all of Gaza. All of it, search and destroy, get rid of everything they consider a threat to Israelis.

Do you believe that Hamas would care enough about Gazans to agree? To end the violence against Gazans, while ending the violence against Israelis?

I don't think Hamas would agree to that. They'd prefer that any number of Gazans die as long as they remain in power.
Tom

 

[jonatha]

Suppose Israel offered to stop attacking Gaza if IDF personnel had access to all of Gaza. All of it, search and destroy, get rid of everything they consider a threat to Israelis.

I have heard an Israeli spokesman make that basic offer. It's no more realistic than Hamas's offer to stop killing Jews if Israel dissolves itself...

 

[bilby]

Have you resurrected the extinct moa?

Yeah, I stripped down the carburettor, gave everything a thorough clean, and reassembled it, and since then it's cutting the grass very well.

 

[Gospel]

I'm kinda saying that. In the sense that Hamas is the Gazan leadership.

Yes, they were the elected leadership, but then they forcefully maintained power beyond their term. Come on, aren't you aware of this?

Yes I am.
Do you understand why they are responsible for the bombing of Gaza as a result?
All the death and destruction they caused?
Tom

I understand it Just as much as I'd underhand I'm accountable for the invasion of Iraq, recognizing them as misguided from the outset, I refrained from endorsing false narratives and echoing unfounded claims. It's liberating and rewarding. You should give it a try. I realized early on, even before reaching adulthood, that individuals should only be held accountable for their own actions, not those of others, and to avoid going down that easy street called jingoism. It's also beneficial to avoid inferring meanings that aren't explicitly stated.

 

[Gospel]

I'm kinda saying that. In the sense that Hamas is the Gazan leadership.

Yes, they were the elected leadership, but then they forcefully maintained power beyond their term. Come on, aren't you aware of this?

Yes I am.
Do you understand why they are responsible for the bombing of Gaza as a result?
All the death and destruction they caused?
Tom

The basic problem with this approach is that it can be used to justify absolutely any action against Gaza by the IDF. ("Look what you made me do...")

It's what Hamas is doing to both Israeli citizens and Palestinians whom they consider traitors. How some don't see the irony in arguments to the contrary is beyond me. Hamas is, de facto, calling for the death of everyone in Israel because [insert what a bunch of idiotic government bureaucrats did here] is proof their violent ideology is correct.

 

[Gospel]

It's evident that the Palestinian situation today is largely a result of Hamas gaining power through deceit. Once in power, the reality of their governance turned out to be disastrously different from what was promised, leaving the Palestinians trapped. With Hamas armed by Iran, the Palestinians found themselves oppressed not only by Israel but also by Hamas. There was a critical moment when Israel could have significantly supported a Palestinian uprising. However, instead of seizing this opportunity, their actions inadvertently helped maintain Hamas' hold on power. Take that however the fuck you want.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza | Human Rights Watch - December 18, 2023 - "Evidence Indicates Civilians Deliberately Denied Access to Food, Water"

But it's fine when Hamas does it? Besides, it's not a war crime anyway--siege is permitted in war. Where it becomes a war crime is if surrender is not permitted.

Like, for example, shooting people who are trying to surrender because you claim that any attempt at surrender is a trick?

Even to the degree that you can’t call shooting Israeli Hostages wrong?

That sounds exactly like not permitting surrender to the families of the dead Israeli hostages, doesn’t it?

Once again, the blame lies with the Palestinians. So many fake civilians that real ones are sometimes mistaken for more deception.

Nope. I will not blame the Palestinians for the IDF making it so that no surrender is possible.

You’ve just confirmed that you think the IDF is making it so that no surrender is possible, making this a war-crime.

In Ukraine they are taking surrenders from Russian troops even though they are obviously, definitely and unequivocally part of the enemy. Ukraine still manages to make surrender possible.

Once again, you fail to understand.

Russia doesn't engage in fake surrenders.

 

[Gospel]

The vote for Hamas into power was rally a vote to fire the corrupt leadership at that time. Palestinians were lied to. And now people are using that vote as a excuse to slaughter them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Secretary of State Clinton took office in 2009. That's after Israel became a right-wing nation. It is not relevant to whether the Israelis have been pushed right by the actions of the Palestinians unless you've got a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.

Why does everyone focus on the flux capacitor?? You'll find a listing for them on O'Reilly's website (admittedly, an easter egg), the tech that would be really useful is that Mr. Fusion. Far more efficient than thermodynamics allows for heat engines and the whole setup must have been made of room temperature superconductor to handle that much power without undergoing a RUD. (For scale--it's approximately half what a Merlin engine puts out.) Besides, if I were planning such a trip I would take a page from Indiana Jones and do it in an airplane. Preferably a bush plane, not the big thing they used.

Arafat and the PLO officially recognized everything on the Israel side of the 1967 borders as part of the State of Israel, that those lands would not be part of the Palestinian State, and agreed to make some land swaps so that the border could be somewhat adjusted. They explicitly and openly agreed to a land for peace deal and followed through on their end of it until the peace process stopped when the Israeli Prime Minister backing it was murdered.

I really think you should read up on the Oslo Accords and the history of its implementation.

Take your own advice. Start with the very name: "The Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip". "Interim" means "interim". The agreement was "for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338." The PLO was reserving the right to resume the armed struggle if the Israelis didn't meet their demands within five years. It should be noted that the Israelis and the Palestinians have very different understandings of what Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 dictate.

Quit paying attention to the inconvenient details!

According to Clinton the Camp David Summit failed because Arafat wouldn't budge on "right of return".

Well, if that was the sticking point, why are you saying the problem was Palestinians not agreeing to final borders?

The heck are you on about? Where the bejesus did I say the problem was Palestinians not agreeing to final borders?

The problem I'm talking about is Western leftists' double standard, constantly holding Israelis responsible for the wrongdoings they provoke Palestinians to commit but never holding Palestinians responsible for the wrongdoings they provoke Israelis to commit.

It's not a double standard. Rather, it's a matter of always blaming the side they perceive to have more power. The arguments are just a rationalization to support their predetermined conclusion.

And what exactly was Arafat proposing? For the Rights of Indigenous People to be acknowledged?

Are you under the impression that the Israelis and the Palestinians are playing charades as if they were Republicans and Democrats?

For a token return of a few thousand refugees? For compensation to be offered by the State of Israel to those who were deliberately targeted in Plan Dalet? That's not controversial to anyone who isn't determined to screw over people of other races, ethnicities, and religious faiths.

Where do you get this stuff? You're the one "taking history and flipping it on its head" here. It was the Israelis who proposed monetary compensation and the "token return of a few thousand refugees", if "token" and "a few" are what we're calling one hundred thousand Palestinians. What exactly was Arafat proposing? Arafat was exactly proposing that Israel accept the return of one hundred and fifty thousand refugees per year.

To Arafat and the other Palestinians delegated to talk to the Israelis, negotiations for a two-state solution appear to have always been a temporary measure, a strategy for getting the one-state solution of their dreams by gradual means. If they get Israel to agree to take in enough Palestinians, eventually Israel will have a Palestinian majority and democratically vote to give itself the power to ethnically cleanse the Jews. That's permanent land for temporary peace. When the Israeli voting public concluded that that was the best deal their leftist governments were going to be able to get from the Palestinian leadership, they stopped electing leftist governments.

No. When they determined that leftist governments would make concessions that brought no benefit to Israel they stopped electing leftist governments. Things like arming the Palestinian police--as if they were somehow a separate group from the terrorists. Israel found the weapons it had supplied being used against them.

Why are you making it sound like Arafat was being unreasonable?

Why are you making it about me? I'm reporting Bill Clinton's opinion of why the negotiations fell apart.

It has to be the fault of the Jews. If your facts say otherwise then get some new facts!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.

One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.

Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!

My English teacher said that a preposition is a word that fits into the blank in the sentence "The bird is <blank> the cage", like "in", "on" or "under".

I suggested that "eating" was therefore a preposition, and ended up <blank> detention.

I would also like to point out that in Yorkshire, "Next" is very definitely a preposition.

Plenty of prepositions won't fit that sentence. From Wikipedia I find "thenceforth". The bird is thenceforth the cage???? Well, if a sufficiently powerful wizard were to polymorph the bird into a cage... And can anyone explain The bird is notwithstanding the cage?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

link

Senior Hamas official (I have no idea what that term means) Saleh Arouri is allegedly targeted and killed in Israeli strike. IDF isn't talking.

At least six people died in the explosion, Lebanon’s state news agency reported. Hamas said Israel had carried out “cowardly assassinations” and that two leaders of Hamas’s elite Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades had also been killed.

Hamas' response is peculiar. Are they suggesting they prefer Israel target civilians?

Yup. They want dead civilians to parade before the world press. They don't want to die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For someone who isn't targeting civilians, the IDF does a damn good job of killing them in quantities that vastly outnumber Hamas victims. Right now the ration of Gazan civilian causalities to Isreali ones is between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.

I find the biased blindness of this accusation infuriating, myself.
There are two main categories of victims here. The Israeli victims of the terrorist attack on 10/7 and the Gazans used as human shields by the terrorists. Virtually every casualty is the predictable result of Hamas' violence and disregard for any human life at all.
Nor is this a new development. Islamic extremists have been operating this way for decades. Hamas is just the latest iteration of that.

I'd say that can be broken into many more divisions.
Victims:

• Israeli victims of 10/7 attack
• Gaza victims
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas infrastructure
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting low level Hamas fighters
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting high level Hamas officials
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting top level Hamas officials
  • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas officials responsible for 10/7 attack
  • IDF attack mistake
  • Hamas or local militia fuck up
  • Hamas or local militia intentional targeting of Gazans

The question to be asked is "Is the outcome worth the collateral cost of heightened extremism and recruitment?" IE, is the target valuable enough that'll it will overwhelm the potential radicalization of future Gazans to fight for Hamas (or whomever else) and its relative impact on Israeli security.

Just because collateral damage is a reality, doesn't mean it comes with no greater cost. Let's strap you in Gaza a young adult, spending the first 18 years of you life in Gaza between 2005 and 2023, and see how your worldview is impacted by the media vacuum and poverty.

Collateral damage has basically no effect on the threat posed by the terrorists. That's entirely a function of the money poured into the terrorism.

While Gaza currently I believe has the highest rate of damage it is nowhere near the worst in terms of average rate. Off the top of my head I can come up with three places in Africa with death tolls far above Gaza. Two of them are being inflicted by Muslims, the third I don't know. And there's another that I had to look up to confirm that it was far worse than Gaza. It's also Muslim.

Are those atrocities breeding anti-Muslim armies? No--because nobody is funding them.

 

[Copernicus]

It's evident that the Palestinian situation today is largely a result of Hamas gaining power through deceit. Once in power, the reality of their governance turned out to be disastrously different from what was promised, leaving the Palestinians trapped. With Hamas armed by Iran, the Palestinians found themselves oppressed not only by Israel but also by Hamas. There was a critical moment when Israel could have significantly supported a Palestinian uprising. However, instead of seizing this opportunity, their actions inadvertently helped maintain Hamas' hold on power. Take that however the fuck you want.

But I think it's very important to understand the role that Netanyahu's governments have played in strengthening the hold that Hamas held over the Gaza Strip. It is well known in Israel that support for Hamas rule was used by the right wing Likud coalitions to promote the establishment of settlements in the West Bank that the rest of the world held to be illegal settlements. The idea was to keep the Palestinian Authority confined to the West Bank and Hamas in charge of the Gaza Strip. Since they were rival factions within the Palestinian movement, that effectively rendered both of them powerless to join forces to oppose the insertion of more West Bank settlements. This blew up in Netanyahu's face on October 7, because Netanyahu considered Hamas too weak and inept to pose a real threat to Israel, regardless of their over-the-top threats. So Israel allowed Hamas to receive money and supplies from outside sources so that they could keep their chokehold on power, regardless of what the majority of those living in Gaza might have wanted. This is one reason why Netanyahu's popularity has tanked since October 7. He is being blamed for having brought this disaster on, and it looks unlikely that he could stay in power, if an election were held today.

 

[laughing dog]

Yup. They want dead civilians to parade before the world press. They don't want to die.

So why does Israel help them zchieve their gosl?

 

[Gospel]

Are those atrocities breeding anti-Muslim armies? No--because nobody is funding them.

Fa sho. The lack of prompt and suitable assistance has contributed to various issues that are now major concerns for European governments. This situation highlights a pattern where these governments excel in creating problems but falter in identifying effective solutions. The experiences of Israeli and Palestinian citizens stand as a stark testament to this dynamic. It seems European governments are fond of funding the wrong damn team.

 

[Gospel]

For instance, when Israel made the decision to withdraw all its citizens from Gaza, the U.S. could have backed those Israelis who were opposed to this move. Supporting the coexistence of Palestinians and Israeli citizens in the same area could have served as a powerful instrument for peace. While this approach would not have been without challenges, the choice to abandon the Palestinians was a significant misstep by the government.