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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Gospel said:
For instance, when Israel made the decision to withdraw all its citizens from Gaza, the U.S. could have backed those Israelis who were opposed to this move. Supporting the coexistence of Palestinians and Israeli citizens in the same area could have served as a powerful instrument for peace. While this approach would not have been without challenges, the choice to abandon the Palestinians was a significant misstep by the government.
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Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
However, many are blaming Israel for Hamas actions.
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Well those many, whoever or wherever they are are simply wrong.

Loren Pechtel said:
Israel knows Gaza will remain a hub of animosity. They're trying to minimize how much that animosity converts into dead Israelis.
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Children getting killed by the IDF is not going to work. Blaming Hamas for children getting killed by the IDF won't work either.
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What you are missing is that Israel has realized peace is impossible. They aren't looking for peace, they are looking to minimize the attacks on Israel without killing too many in the process. (They could end this pronto by nuking Tehran and announcing anyone else funding the terror will meet the same fate. I think everyone would agree that's far worse than the status quo, though.)
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
The tunnels bother me a lot. The UN should be abandoning the tunnels. Using bombs at the surface is ridiculous.
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Huh?

Israel is using delayed fusing--the bomb punches through the surface and detonates inside the tunnel. Some of the videos we have seen make it clear what's going on.

The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Deceit? Hamas was known to stand for war when they were elected
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Hamas campaigned on ending the occupation. Then, rather than end the occupation they became occupiers.

Loren Pechtel said:
They might not have been elected on that basis, but the people knew what they were getting.
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The people voted for what they thought at the time was the lesser of two evils. Regarding Hamas' stance on conflict, at the time when polls were conducted (which is no longer the case), two-thirds of the populace expressed a desire for Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Loren Pechtel said:
And the support for the path of war remains very high.
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Yeah, I'm totally sold on the idea that said support remaining "very high" has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas murdering dissenters.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Are those atrocities breeding anti-Muslim armies? No--because nobody is funding them.
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Fa sho. The lack of prompt and suitable assistance has contributed to various issues that are now major concerns for European governments. This situation highlights a pattern where these governments excel in creating problems but falter in identifying effective solutions. The experiences of Israeli and Palestinian citizens stand as a stark testament to this dynamic. It seems European governments are fond of funding the wrong damn team.
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Huh? There has been cooperation in hunting the terrorists (Boko Haram), and basically nothing at all when it's a state actor. What I'm saying is nobody is pouring money into anti-Muslim terrorist groups so the death tolls that add a zero or more to Gaza don't cause genocidal groups to spring up. Terrorism is a function of money, not of retaliation.
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And what I'm saying is, rather than helping to protect Palestinians from Hamas by supporting the Palestinian people, the US and Israel abandoned their neighbors because they thought (like you) they were all not worth the trouble. Now that Hamas has taken over when Palestinians demanded change, the US and Israel greet missiles in the sky with surprised Pikachu faces.

If the US and Israel had been more strategic, they could have perceived the vote to oust Fatah, coupled with the Palestinian desire for Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, as an opportunity to gain trust with the Palestinian people, diminish Hamas' influence, and with many challenges ahead move towards a two state solution with the people of Israel and Palestine having done away with their corrupt governments. But the US is too busy indulging in its cuck fetish to put Israel in it's place where necessary.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
The tunnels bother me a lot. The UN should be abandoning the tunnels. Using bombs at the surface is ridiculous.
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Huh?
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If the tunnels aren't that deep, what is a bomb achieving that can't be readily repaired? With deeper tunnels, are bombs going to reach them?
Loren Pechtel said:
Israel is using delayed fusing--the bomb punches through the surface and detonates inside the tunnel.
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If the tunnel is shallow enough. Also, how accurate does a bomb need to be to hit a 4 ft wide tunnel? How accurate the intel?
Loren Pechtel said:
The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.
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Who said the UN was in the tunnels?
 
It seems to be overlooked by some that Hamas' initial acts of violence in Gaza were actually directed against Palestinian civilians. Given this reality, it's understandable why many in the U.S. might be puzzled by the question, 'Why don't the Palestinians revolt?

Edit: Why didn't the Jews revolt against the Nazi's during the Holocaust? See how that sounds?
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.
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Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.
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Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.
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Probably so. But the problem was that Israelis like going to bars after work; and terrorists were blowing them up. The wall has saved many lives (including Palestinian lives).
 
Gospel said:
It seems to be overlooked by some that Hamas' initial acts of violence in Gaza were actually directed against Palestinian civilians. Given this reality, it's understandable why many in the U.S. might be puzzled by the question, 'Why don't the Palestinians revolt?

Edit: Why didn't the Jews revolt against the Nazi's during the Holocaust? See how that sounds?
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They actually targeted a pro-peace concert.
 
Here's what I call real anti-Semitism:
From Reuters:
A far-right Polish lawmaker used a fire extinguisher to put out Hanukkah candles in the country's parliament on Tuesday during an event with members of the Jewish community, provoking outrage and leading the speaker to exclude him from the sitting.

...
Afterwards Braun took to the podium in the chamber where he described Hanukkah as "satanic" and said he was restoring "normality".

Asked just after the incident if he was ashamed, Braun replied: "Those who take part in acts of satanic worship should be ashamed.
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Speaker Szymon Hołownia:
Holownia excluded Braun from the sitting of parliament and said he would inform prosecutors about his actions.

He later said that Braun would lose half of his salary for three months and all parliamentary expenses for six months.

"There will be no tolerance for racism, xenophobia, antisemitism ... as long as I am the speaker of parliament," Holownia told reporters.
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Harry Bosch said:
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.
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Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.
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Probably so. But the problem was that Israelis like going to bars after work; and terrorists were blowing them up. The wall has saved many lives (including Palestinian lives).
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But you can't ignore the huge death toll from 10/7 and say "but we've saved lives". That is in the math now, that and the new math of Hamas just captures a bunch of hostages to prevent all out gridfire as a result of their latest atrocity. People do get that was the worst part of 10/7, right? Hamas hacked terrorism. Terrorism always adapts. So methods in which to prevent somethings, might actually evolve much worse things.

And as much as some people want to suggest all of these bombings and attacks by IDF have made a difference at all for Israel, Hamas got away with an atrocity. Sure, maybe a few higher ups have died, but not many, no where near what should be needed to account for the actions on 10/7. The victims of 10/7 have not seen justice... and the families of those taken hostage, are still living with a personal hell.

The wall didn't do fuck all, it was a cheap ass floodwall that appeared to work... until it failed spectacularly.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Harry Bosch said:
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Coexistence? Israel pulled back to their wall because it was too hard to protect Jews otherwise.
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Bruh, Palestinians were sad to see them go. Markets were booming, and there was mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. I bet you my membership on this forum that if the threat of Hamas vanished and Palestinians were polled today and asked if they miss the economy and their Jewish friends, the polls would reflect 'heck yeah'.
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Probably so. But the problem was that Israelis like going to bars after work; and terrorists were blowing them up. The wall has saved many lives (including Palestinian lives).
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But you can't ignore the huge death toll from 10/7 and say "but we've saved lives". That is in the math now, that and the new math of Hamas just captures a bunch of hostages to prevent all out gridfire as a result of their latest atrocity. People do get that was the worst part of 10/7, right? Hamas hacked terrorism. Terrorism always adapts. So methods in which to prevent somethings, might actually evolve much worse things.

And as much as some people want to suggest all of these bombings and attacks by IDF have made a difference at all for Israel, Hamas got away with an atrocity. Sure, maybe a few higher ups have died, but not many, no where near what should be needed to account for the actions on 10/7. The victims of 10/7 have not seen justice... and the families of those taken hostage, are still living with a personal hell.

The wall didn't do fuck all, it was a cheap ass floodwall that appeared to work... until it failed spectacularly.
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I don’t disagree. But I would recommend to my Israeli friends to beef up defenses, respond quicker to attacks, and don’t overextend defensive resources on settlers in disputed areas not recognized by Israel.
 
This is heartbreaking. :(  2018–2019 Gaza border protests
The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return ... were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019, in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians. The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel. They protested against Israel's land, air and sea blockade of the Gaza Strip and the United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

The first demonstrations were organized by independent activists, but the initiative was soon endorsed by Hamas, the rulers of the Gaza Strip, as well as other major factions in Gaza. ...

Thirty thousand Palestinians participated in the first demonstration on 30 March. Larger protests took place on the following Fridays, 6 April, 13 April, 20 April, 27 April, 4 May, and 11 May — each of which involved at least 10,000 demonstrators — while smaller numbers attended activities during the week. ...

Most of the demonstrators demonstrated peacefully far from the border fence. Peter Cammack, a fellow with the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, argued that the march indicated a new trend in Palestinian society and Hamas, with a shift away from violence towards non-violent forms of protest. Nevertheless, groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials said the demonstrations were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.
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Casualties:
  • Palestinians: 223 killed, 9,204 injured
  • Israelis: 0 or 1 killed, 4 or 11 wounded (6 soldiers, 5 civilians)
 
South Africa files genocide case against Israel at World Court | Reuters
South Africa asked the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on Friday for an urgent order declaring that Israel was in breach of its obligations under the 1948 Genocide Convention in its crackdown against the Palestinian group Hamas in Gaza.

The ICJ, sometimes known as the World Court, is the United Nations venue for resolving disputes between states. Israel's foreign ministry said in a reaction that the suit was "baseless."

South Africa's filing alleged Israel was violating its obligations under the treaty, drafted in the wake of the Holocaust, which makes it a crime to attempt to destroy a people in whole or in part.

It asked the court to issue provisional, or short-term, measures ordering Israel to stop its military campaign in Gaza, which it said were "necessary in this case to protect against further, severe and irreparable harm to the rights of the Palestinian people."
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Israel to fight South Africa's Gaza genocide claim in court
Israel will fight South Africa's claim that it is committing "genocidal" acts in Gaza at the International Court of Justice, an Israeli spokesman has said.

"History will judge you, and it will judge you without mercy," Eylon Levy said, addressing South African leaders.

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Following its application to the ICJ, South Africa's presidency said that the country was obliged "to prevent genocide from occurring".

The 84-page document states that the "acts and omissions by Israel" are "genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group".

South African government lawyers are preparing for the case to be heard on 11 and 12 January, Clayson Monyela, a spokesperson for South Africa's Department of International Relations and Cooperation, said on X.

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Israeli intended to fight the case, Eylon Levy said, "to dispel South Africa's absurd blood libel".

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Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu angrily rejected South Africa's allegations when it filed the lawsuit, saying "No, South Africa, it is not we who have come to perpetrate genocide, it is Hamas.

"It would murder all of us if it could. In contrast, the IDF [Israeli army] is acting as morally as possible."
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Suppressing the majority in Gaza, especially while they were already being oppressed by a minority within Gaza, was an extraordinarily unwise decision for any government leading an intelligent and civilized nation to make.
 
Blood libel?
That's the notion that Jews kill non-Jewish children to get their blood for matzo bread and the like.

Bertrand Russell, in "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish":
This myth-making faculty is often allied with cruelty. Ever since the Middle Ages, the Jews have been accused of practising ritual murder. There is not an iota of evidence for this accusation, and no sane person who has examined it believes it. Nevertheless it persists. I have met White Russians who were convinced of its truth, and among many Nazis it is accepted without question. Such myths give an excuse for the infliction of torture, and the unfounded belief in them is evidence of the unconscious desire to find some victim to persecute.
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White Russians - Russians that fought the Bolshevik "Reds" and who often ended up leaving Russia.
 
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