Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Swammerdami]

Those indiscriminately blaming ordinary Palestinians because they chose Hamas to lead them should keep in mind that there's about a 50-50 chance Americans will choose Trump this November.

 

[laughing dog]

A 17 year old is a child, regardless of their behavior.

Exactly.
Which is why Hamas forcing them into militant violence is so abhorrent.

But you can't point out that kind of child abuse when Palestinians do it, because that makes you racist.
Tom

How that is relevant to the IDF killing civilians because....?

Because IDF doesn't target civilians, children or otherwise, the way Hamas does.
Hamas also uses human shields, including children, which is why so many Gazan children are getting killed.

That's how it's relevant.
Tom

The IDF not targeting civiluans is irrelevant to the fact they kill lots of them: IDF kills 5 to 10 tines as many, depending on the estimates. Making excuses for their disproportionate response reinforces that fact.

The reason so many Gazan children are killed by IDF bombs is because the IDF drops bombs on them,

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yet, it seems we are expected to ignore the killing of women and children on the grounds that women and children have been killed? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaking mostly for myself,

I'm not ignoring the deaths of anyone. Not Muslim or Jew, not men, women, children. But if you don't identify the background reasons they have died, you can't prevent future episodes.

I see the main reason for Gazans and Israelis civilian casualties as violent Islamicist leaders. Not just Hamas, but mainly. And even more so, their international backers. The people who provided the resources to build a big military installation, but not basic infrastructure like water and power.

And I don't know how to distinguish between the Gazans who knew about the military infrastructure being built next to or under civilian infrastructures like apartment buildings or houses of worship. But I cannot believe that only Hamas knew about it.
So I don't have any clear way to distinguish between Hamas and their supporters, Gazan or foreign.
Tom

Of course they all knew about it. It was the worst kept secret. Everyone knew about it. Everyone. Israel and USA had been saying since the moment Hammas took power for the first time in Gaza.

They removed many of the orchsrds (Gazas main income) and replaced it with military installations.

I think the only reason the Palestinians keep supporting these ghastly and barbaric Islamists might be because they are the least bad option for them. Abbas is a non starter. At least with Hammas they got functioning hospitals and schools.

I sympathise with the situation for the Palestinians. It sucks. Their desperation is exploited by other Muslims to threaten Israel. But they refuse to accept being partners with Isael, (which would be the obvious thing to do). Israel is the best functioning government of the Middle East.

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

 

[barbos]

Those indiscriminately blaming ordinary Palestinians because they chose Hamas to lead them should keep in mind that there's about a 50-50 chance Americans will choose Trump this November.

There is a ~100% chance that americans will choose someone horrible.

 

[Gospel]

I'm with barbos on that, knowing the lesser evil crowd will be on my ass.

 

[Arctish]

Yet, it seems we are expected to ignore the killing of women and children on the grounds that women and children have been killed? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaking mostly for myself,

I'm not ignoring the deaths of anyone. Not Muslim or Jew, not men, women, children. But if you don't identify the background reasons they have died, you can't prevent future episodes.

I see the main reason for Gazans and Israelis civilian casualties as violent Islamicist leaders. Not just Hamas, but mainly. And even more so, their international backers. The people who provided the resources to build a big military installation, but not basic infrastructure like water and power.

And I don't know how to distinguish between the Gazans who knew about the military infrastructure being built next to or under civilian infrastructures like apartment buildings or houses of worship. But I cannot believe that only Hamas knew about it.
So I don't have any clear way to distinguish between Hamas and their supporters, Gazan or foreign.
Tom

Of course they all knew about it. It was the worst kept secret. Everyone knew about it. Everyone. Israel and USA had been saying since the moment Hammas took power for the first time in Gaza.

They removed many of the orchsrds (Gazas main income) and replaced it with military installations.

Oh, really?

Everyone except the Israelis could see military installations being built where there used to be orchards. Which is weird considering the Israelis have all those observation points built into the containment wall being patrolled 24/7 by IDF soldiers. And yet the Israelis failed to do anything about the deadly peril even though they kill people in Gaza via artillery, tank fire, and drone strikes regularly.

I think the only reason the Palestinians keep supporting these ghastly and barbaric Islamists might be because they are the least bad option for them. Abbas is a non starter. At least with Hammas they got functioning hospitals and schools.

I sympathise with the situation for the Palestinians. It sucks. Their desperation is exploited by other Muslims to threaten Israel. But they refuse to accept being partners with Isael, (which would be the obvious thing to do). Israel is the best functioning government of the Middle East.

What is your evidence they "refuse" to be partners with Israel?

The Oslo Accords were all about being partners with Israel. So are the offers the PA has repeatedly made ever since. Heck, even Hamas' willingness to recognize the 1967 borders in exchange for Israel fucking off is acceptance of partnership in a peace deal.

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

Let's try this:

"There's just something about Jews that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Germany's problem. But it is. It's like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?"

^That sounds awfully racist, doesn't it? Do you want to rephrase part of your post, or are you sticking with the condescending tone and bigoted wording?

 

[Gospel]

UN warns Gaza is now ‘uninhabitable’ as war continues | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

As Hamas wants. They chose the path of massacre knowing what would happen. Blame them.

That's so daft. If a group anticipates that a certain action will provoke an international reaction against their adversary, thus advancing their cause, they view this as a strategic success. In the context of groups like Hamas, their understanding of 'blame' is different. They perceive actions that lead Israel to respond in a way that garners international criticism as beneficial for their objectives. It's a tactical victory for their cause. If one of them read your post they'd click the like button.

You're evading the point.

Yes, it's beneficial to their objective. They deliberately slaughtered civilians and deliberately set up a situation where there own civilians were going to die. You fail to understand the Nuremberg-level evil in this.

I'm not avoiding the point & I'm also not failing to understand the evil. My point from the beginning has been that Hamas desired this conflict and the Israeli government, led by Zionists, is playing into their hands. Your post seems to just reiterate the obvious, implying that Hamas doesn't want to be blamed. However, the concept of blame is viewed differently by them than you might expect. In their perspective, blame is actually positive. They welcome it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yet, it seems we are expected to ignore the killing of women and children on the grounds that women and children have been killed? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaking mostly for myself,

I'm not ignoring the deaths of anyone. Not Muslim or Jew, not men, women, children. But if you don't identify the background reasons they have died, you can't prevent future episodes.

I see the main reason for Gazans and Israelis civilian casualties as violent Islamicist leaders. Not just Hamas, but mainly. And even more so, their international backers. The people who provided the resources to build a big military installation, but not basic infrastructure like water and power.

And I don't know how to distinguish between the Gazans who knew about the military infrastructure being built next to or under civilian infrastructures like apartment buildings or houses of worship. But I cannot believe that only Hamas knew about it.
So I don't have any clear way to distinguish between Hamas and their supporters, Gazan or foreign.
Tom

Of course they all knew about it. It was the worst kept secret. Everyone knew about it. Everyone. Israel and USA had been saying since the moment Hammas took power for the first time in Gaza.

They removed many of the orchsrds (Gazas main income) and replaced it with military installations.

Oh, really?

Everyone except the Israelis could see military installations being built where there used to be orchards. Which is weird considering the Israelis have all those observation points built into the containment wall being patrolled 24/7 by IDF soldiers. And yet the Israelis failed to do anything about the deadly peril even though they kill people in Gaza via artillery, tank fire, and drone strikes regularly.

Why do you think they built the wall? They could see what was happening. The IDF has historically been very gentle in how they handle the Palestinians. They let the Palestinians get away with the most awful stuff all the time. The Palestinians are the worst neighbours. IDF only gets involved to stop the most egregrious Palestinian offences. But mostly they have left the Palestinians alone, even though it's been obvious all the time what Hammas has been planning. That's why the Israelis are so angry with Netanyahu for his failure 7/10. They knew an attack like this would happen. The IDF had planned for it. Yet when it came, couldn't catch them in time.

I think the only reason the Palestinians keep supporting these ghastly and barbaric Islamists might be because they are the least bad option for them. Abbas is a non starter. At least with Hammas they got functioning hospitals and schools.

I sympathise with the situation for the Palestinians. It sucks. Their desperation is exploited by other Muslims to threaten Israel. But they refuse to accept being partners with Isael, (which would be the obvious thing to do). Israel is the best functioning government of the Middle East.

What is your evidence they "refuse" to be partners with Israel?

Hammas and Islamic Jihad has wide popularity in Palestine. There's seemingly zero political will among the Palestinians to cooperate with Israel. Any movement to bridge the divide, are all Israeli/Jewish initiatives. The Jews are trying so hard to make friends, all the time. If there was any Palestinian interest in living in peace we'd seen some tangible result by now. They just keep going on about getting occupied land back. Which is not realistic, nor fair for the Jews.

The Oslo Accords were all about being partners with Israel. So are the offers the PA has repeatedly made ever since. Heck, even Hamas' willingness to recognize the 1967 borders in exchange for Israel fucking off is acceptance of partnership in a peace deal.

PLO was just a vehicle with which Yasser Arafat could scam the international community. The Palestinians never cared about him. He certainly never cared about the Palestinian people. He was always a joke. He's the same kind of guy as Abbas. Arafat cared about Arafat. Abbas cares about Abbas. Nobody cares about the Palestinians. Nobody. All their leaders continually fuck them over. Oddly enough, the Palestinians best friend is Israel. They're continually... so nice to the Palestinians.

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

Let's try this:

"There's just something about Jews that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Germany's problem. But it is. It's like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?"

^That sounds awfully racist, doesn't it? Do you want to rephrase part of your post, or are you sticking with the condescending tone and bigoted wording?

There's nothing wrong about the wording, nor is it bigoted or racist. It's just a description of the Middle East seems to be (not) working. Can you come up with an example of a Muslim country that is working? They're all fucked. Yes, some of it is the fault of a colonial heritage and the CIA (fucking shit up, Iran for example). But that can't explain all of the problems that we get around Muslim communities. There just seems to be something about Islam that is not conducive to having functioning liberal democracies. No, I can't explain it either. I'm just pointing out the data. Turkey was somewhat fine as long as secularism was trendy. But the moment Islam became the Zeitgeist, it was fucked again.

I find it extremly tiring discussing with people completely poisoned by American wokisms. How about being less hung up about what naughty words people use, and instead care about solving problems together? Wokes do not have the monopoly on deciding which words are bad or which can't be used in civilised conversations. It's just a distraction and gets us nowhere.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A 17 year old is a child, regardless of their behavior.

Exactly.
Which is why Hamas forcing them into militant violence is so abhorrent.

But you can't point out that kind of child abuse when Palestinians do it, because that makes you racist.
Tom

How that is relevant to the IDF killing civilians because....?

Because IDF doesn't target civilians, children or otherwise, the way Hamas does.
Hamas also uses human shields, including children, which is why so many Gazan children are getting killed.

That's how it's relevant.
Tom

The killing of minors in Gaza helps Hamas convinced young males to murder others and themselves. It isn't like the Palestinians have access to much news/media/etc... in Gaza.

The part that bothers me the most is what appears to be the complete lack of tactical gain for the Israelis in their actions, unless, they are indeed looking to permanently displace the Gazans, which is looking more and more like the case. Israeli soldiers are dying for what gain? How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

 

[Gospel]

Can you come up with an example of a Muslim country that is working?

Saudi Arabia. What do I win?

 

[Gospel]

How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

Come on man!! You know that destroying Hamas means Hezbollah is defeated! Stop playing around. You also know that destroying Gaza means Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan just vanishes off the world atlas as well so quit the nonsense!

 

[DrZoidberg]

A 17 year old is a child, regardless of their behavior.

Exactly.
Which is why Hamas forcing them into militant violence is so abhorrent.

But you can't point out that kind of child abuse when Palestinians do it, because that makes you racist.
Tom

How that is relevant to the IDF killing civilians because....?

Because IDF doesn't target civilians, children or otherwise, the way Hamas does.
Hamas also uses human shields, including children, which is why so many Gazan children are getting killed.

That's how it's relevant.
Tom

The killing of minors in Gaza helps Hamas convinced young males to murder others and themselves. It isn't like the Palestinians have access to much news/media/etc... in Gaza.

The part that bothers me the most is what appears to be the complete lack of tactical gain for the Israelis in their actions, unless, they are indeed looking to permanently displace the Gazans, which is looking more and more like the case. Israeli soldiers are dying for what gain? How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

Stop being such a tool for Hammas. The Palestinians have smart phones. They know everything you know.

Israel are completely open about what their plans are. They will take over handling the security in Gaza. To do this they must first neutralise it's fighting capacity. Israel will let the Palstinians run their own affairs. They just won't have an army anymore. At this point, I hope we all can agree that the Palestinians can't be trusted to have sharp objects? They keep attacking Israel. It's not an acceptable behaviour for any sovereign state. Israel has had an angel's patience with their nonsense. It just has to stop. And now Israel is stopping it. Well done Israel.

 

[Gospel]

Regrettably, I must admit that Israel's actions have not led to a resolution but rather exacerbated the situation. It's a misconception to think that these developments represent a victory for Israel or enhance their security; such a belief is disconnected from reality. Only thing your post is missing is a mission accomplished banner.

 

[Swammerdami]

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

This comment borders on bigotry. In Kazakhstan, for example, Muslims outnumber Christians 11 million to 4 million; this country is noted for religious freedom and tolerance. Montenegro is a country that is 19% Muslim, and the major religious dispute seems to be between two brands of Christianity!

The comment is especially inappropriate given the huge abuse Israel has heaped on the Palestinians. Whatever the original causes of conflict, by now most Gazans are more worried about survival more than religion.

 

[Gospel]

But you can't point out that kind of child abuse when Palestinians do it, because that makes you racist.

Buddy, I was just talking about children being exploited to transport ammunition through tunnels hinting at other roles they are forced or coerced into. Like digging these tunnels. This isn't about racism. What makes it racist is when people talk about Gaza's children as if they are all involved in this way.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because IDF doesn't target civilians, children or otherwise, the way Hamas does.
Hamas also uses human shields, including children, which is why so many Gazan children are getting killed.

That's how it's relevant.
Tom

The killing of minors in Gaza helps Hamas convinced young males to murder others and themselves. It isn't like the Palestinians have access to much news/media/etc... in Gaza.

The part that bothers me the most is what appears to be the complete lack of tactical gain for the Israelis in their actions, unless, they are indeed looking to permanently displace the Gazans, which is looking more and more like the case. Israeli soldiers are dying for what gain? How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

The buildings are blown up, the lack of access to utilities was real, and people are dying. It doesn't matter if it is 25,000 or 2,500. It is high enough for Hamas to use as propaganda.

Stop being such a tool for Hammas. The Palestinians have smart phones. They know everything you know.

As soon as you stop being a tool of Netanyahu who has used the blood of his soldiers to help wash away the failure that was his lack of protecting Israel from real threats while he was busy transitioning his leadership into a dictatorship.

Israel are completely open about what their plans are. They will take over handling the security in Gaza.

Actually, they've sent mixed signals here. They've indicated anything between, their military will be allowed to do whatever it wants to, let's displace the Gazans. Their actions (and your words) point to the latter. If the Palestinians can't be "trusted to have sharp objects", what other than an iron fisted military state or permanent displacement would work to ensure Israeli security?

To do this they must first neutralise it's fighting capacity.

Neutralize is a pipe dream without managing the Iran and others financial side of things.

Israel will let the Palstinians run their own affairs.

How? Gaza is being razed. The Arabs aren't rebuilding it, the Israelis wouldn't for the Palestinians, and the Palestinians can't afford it.

They just won't have an army anymore. At this point, I hope we all can agree that the Palestinians can't be trusted to have sharp objects? They keep attacking Israel. It's not an acceptable behaviour for any sovereign state. Israel has had an angel's patience with their nonsense. It just has to stop. And now Israel is stopping it. Well done Israel.

But Israel isn't "stopping it". The use of bombs, missiles, bullets don't equate success. Destroying tunnels doesn't equate success. Hamas can't be defeated like this.

 

[ZiprHead]

The UN has called for a cease fire.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And the Arabs just love to use the Palestinians as their meek little pawns of pawns. Radical Iranian leadership can't have peace because they need Israel as a foil. Radical Israeli leadership want it all (something that seems ridiculously impossible). When radicals run both sides of the show, nothing good will happen... and it gets exhausting watching people make excuses for condoning future violence.

(Emphasis added)
And here's where you get it wrong. So long as radicals run either side nothing good will happen. Israel didn't used to be radical, they have been pushed that way by every attempt to be good backfiring. The route to peace is for Iran and proxies to quit poking the porcupine.

Wasn't Israel more radical back in the day? It isn't as if the US and Israel have been warm and fuzzy since inception of the state.

And as far back as I can remember, the far-right has been running things since shortly after Netanyahu stoked fires that helped precipitate the assassination of Rabin, by the... far-right. We'll never know how the Oslo Accords could have functioned, had Netanyahu not sought to displace them.

 

[TomC]

The reason so many Gazan children are killed by IDF bombs is because the IDF drops bombs on them,

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.
The difference is that Gazans target civilians, while Israelis do not.
Tom
ETA ~Israel has more and better bombs, for sure. But everyone in Gaza knew that in the lead up to Oct 7. Gazans chose the terrorist attack anyway.~

 

[bilby]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.