Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh, really?

Everyone except the Israelis could see military installations being built where there used to be orchards. Which is weird considering the Israelis have all those observation points built into the containment wall being patrolled 24/7 by IDF soldiers. And yet the Israelis failed to do anything about the deadly peril even though they kill people in Gaza via artillery, tank fire, and drone strikes regularly.

1) They have only been hitting when the fire from Gaza became too intense. Most attacks draw no response.

2) When they do hit they hit various Hamas military targets. But the obvious things are generally low value--training areas, etc.

The Oslo Accords were all about being partners with Israel. So are the offers the PA has repeatedly made ever since. Heck, even Hamas' willingness to recognize the 1967 borders in exchange for Israel fucking off is acceptance of partnership in a peace deal.

You have repeatedly been shown the error of this position.

Oslo was an exercise in can-kicking the important issues while giving the Palestinians a very front-loaded agreement in the short term.

And where are you getting Hamas recognizing 67 borders? That was Arafat--he would accept 67 borders and right of return. Both sides know that that would mean the destruction of Israel and that it's a non-starter. You pretend it would be a token but it would not.

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

Let's try this:

"There's just something about Jews that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Germany's problem. But it is. It's like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?"

^That sounds awfully racist, doesn't it? Do you want to rephrase part of your post, or are you sticking with the condescending tone and bigoted wording?

"Jews" are a widespread group from various backgrounds. Gazans have pretty much been subjected to radicalization from birth. It's not that there is any inherent failing, just the effects of a lifetime of radicalization.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

UN warns Gaza is now ‘uninhabitable’ as war continues | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

As Hamas wants. They chose the path of massacre knowing what would happen. Blame them.

That's so daft. If a group anticipates that a certain action will provoke an international reaction against their adversary, thus advancing their cause, they view this as a strategic success. In the context of groups like Hamas, their understanding of 'blame' is different. They perceive actions that lead Israel to respond in a way that garners international criticism as beneficial for their objectives. It's a tactical victory for their cause. If one of them read your post they'd click the like button.

You're evading the point.

Yes, it's beneficial to their objective. They deliberately slaughtered civilians and deliberately set up a situation where there own civilians were going to die. You fail to understand the Nuremberg-level evil in this.

I'm not avoiding the point & I'm also not failing to understand the evil. My point from the beginning has been that Hamas desired this conflict and the Israeli government, led by Zionists, is playing into their hands. Your post seems to just reiterate the obvious, implying that Hamas doesn't want to be blamed. However, the concept of blame is viewed differently by them than you might expect. In their perspective, blame is actually positive. They welcome it.

You complain about Israel playing into their hands--but you offer no other effective means of protecting their citizens. You keep focusing on tiny things to blame Israel for and ignore Iran pumping the money into conflict.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you think they built the wall? They could see what was happening. The IDF has historically been very gentle in how they handle the Palestinians. They let the Palestinians get away with the most awful stuff all the time. The Palestinians are the worst neighbours. IDF only gets involved to stop the most egregrious Palestinian offences. But mostly they have left the Palestinians alone, even though it's been obvious all the time what Hammas has been planning. That's why the Israelis are so angry with Netanyahu for his failure 7/10. They knew an attack like this would happen. The IDF had planned for it. Yet when it came, couldn't catch them in time.

I would say Pakistan is about as bad a neighbor--and that's from a large but minority part of their country. If they ever got control Pakistan would be throwing a lot more shit at India and egg on a war.

Hammas and Islamic Jihad has wide popularity in Palestine. There's seemingly zero political will among the Palestinians to cooperate with Israel. Any movement to bridge the divide, are all Israeli/Jewish initiatives. The Jews are trying so hard to make friends, all the time. If there was any Palestinian interest in living in peace we'd seen some tangible result by now. They just keep going on about getting occupied land back. Which is not realistic, nor fair for the Jews.

Disagree--while I agree with the popularity it would be impossible for there to be a Palestinian peace movement. That would just get the people involved dead.

The Oslo Accords were all about being partners with Israel. So are the offers the PA has repeatedly made ever since. Heck, even Hamas' willingness to recognize the 1967 borders in exchange for Israel fucking off is acceptance of partnership in a peace deal.

PLO was just a vehicle with which Yasser Arafat could scam the international community. The Palestinians never cared about him. He certainly never cared about the Palestinian people. He was always a joke. He's the same kind of guy as Abbas. Arafat cared about Arafat. Abbas cares about Abbas. Nobody cares about the Palestinians. Nobody. All their leaders continually fuck them over. Oddly enough, the Palestinians best friend is Israel. They're continually... so nice to the Palestinians.

Dictators never care about their people. The only question is how much they loot--and that's fundamentally a factor of how long they expect to be able to loot. (A dictator who loots too much finds the loot drying up. Short term advantage, long term disadvantage.)

There's nothing wrong about the wording, nor is it bigoted or racist. It's just a description of the Middle East seems to be (not) working. Can you come up with an example of a Muslim country that is working? They're all fucked. Yes, some of it is the fault of a colonial heritage and the CIA (fucking shit up, Iran for example). But that can't explain all of the problems that we get around Muslim communities. There just seems to be something about Islam that is not conducive to having functioning liberal democracies. No, I can't explain it either. I'm just pointing out the data. Turkey was somewhat fine as long as secularism was trendy. But the moment Islam became the Zeitgeist, it was fucked again.

While the CIA played a role I think it's minor. Radical Islam is pretty much the same everywhere. The CIA didn't make them bad. They're the worst because they have oil money to be bad with--means, not motive.

I find it extremly tiring discussing with people completely poisoned by American wokisms. How about being less hung up about what naughty words people use, and instead care about solving problems together? Wokes do not have the monopoly on deciding which words are bad or which can't be used in civilised conversations. It's just a distraction and gets us nowhere.

I don't think this is a case of wokeism. Rather, it's not seeing that we are referring to what they have been trained to be rather than referring to any inherent property.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The killing of minors in Gaza helps Hamas convinced young males to murder others and themselves. It isn't like the Palestinians have access to much news/media/etc... in Gaza.

The part that bothers me the most is what appears to be the complete lack of tactical gain for the Israelis in their actions, unless, they are indeed looking to permanently displace the Gazans, which is looking more and more like the case. Israeli soldiers are dying for what gain? How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

While Israel isn't talking about it's targets from what we see they keep hitting tunnels. Hitting tunnels hampers Hamas' ability to attack Israel. Furthermore, they've killed about 1/3 of Hamas, that's going to take a long time to recover. Israel perfectly well knows there is no permanent solution, it's about making it be as long as possible before they attack again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can you come up with an example of a Muslim country that is working?

Saudi Arabia. What do I win?

Working?!

No. It's a mess propped up by oil money. Most work is performed by foreigners, many who are little better than slaves. So long as the oil money flows they can buy most of what they can't actually do.

 

[Arctish]

Link to the evidence that massacring Jews was common, or admit you can't find any.

Here is a distressing list of massacres that occurred in in British Mandate before the 14/05/48. It does not sort between victims, just lists them.

And clear evidence of why I say Wikipedia is untrustworthy.

Clear evidence you do not read with comprehension.

The list is of massacres and killings in Palestine that occurred during the British Mandate. It says so right at the top. It includes battles like the one at Tel Hai. Even if you missed the header you could have figured it out if you'd bothered to think about what it was showing you, or remembered anything about our discussion of Joseph Trumpeldor and the nice Lion of Judah statue at his memorial.

2/17/48, calls the responsible party "Jewish settlers" but the description is "57 Arabs killed while taking part in attack on Jewish settlements Tirat Tzvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein HaNatziv". Really now, blaming people for defending themselves? Yeah, if you read the description it's clear but if you're just counting up numbers you'll miss that. That makes me question how accurate the rest of the table is.

Questioning a site's accuracy is a good thing.

Questioning leads to doing your own research.

Doing your own research leads to greater understanding, especially if you find good sources of information.

If you do find a source of information you think is a good one and want to pass along what it says,

link to it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

Fundamentally, it comes down to report what Hamas says or don't have anything to report. And the latter is intolerable to a news organization.

 

[bilby]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom

If they were untargeted, they were by definition not launched at anybody.

But according to this guy, they weren't untargeted.

The difference is that Gazans target civilians, while Israelis do not.

So, your thesis is that Gazans target civillians with untargeted bombs.

Which seems lacking in consistency and coherence, as theses go.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

This comment borders on bigotry. In Kazakhstan, for example, Muslims outnumber Christians 11 million to 4 million; this country is noted for religious freedom and tolerance. Montenegro is a country that is 19% Muslim, and the major religious dispute seems to be between two brands of Christianity!

Kazakhstan is not a well functioning liberal democracy. It's a brutal dictatorship and kleptocracy. I agree, if you take away everyone's freedom then Muslims seem to get along with the others. Not really proof of anything though.

Balkan Muslims are culturally Christian. They're all decendents of the turncoats who kissed Ottoman boot when the Ottomans were in control., and wanted a position of power. Ottoman's typically used Christians as higher administrators. Muslims had the power, but Christians did the actual admistering. A clever division of power system. For those who don't know, the Ottoman empire was a secular empire, with the thinnest wafer of Islam laid on top. They just didn't get involved in local religious issues, other than to get rid of the odd Muslim Jihadi fanatic. Turkey today is a decendent of this brand of secular Islam. So any Christian land the Ottoman's ruled got very little Islam shoved down their throats. Unfortunately Turkey of late has started to import Egyptian "Muslim Brotherhood"-style Islam. Much a product of (the rediculous ideas) of Sayyid Qutb (this idiot's ideas is also directly responsible for Al Qaeda and ISIS). And now Turkey sucks. Anyway... Balkan Islam is quite different from Middle-Eastern Islam. It's basically Christianity with different hats.

The comment is especially inappropriate given the huge abuse Israel has heaped on the Palestinians. Whatever the original causes of conflict, by now most Gazans are more worried about survival more than religion.

Because Hammas, as a tactic, is using Gazans are human shields. They're on purpose make it hard for the IDF to tell fighters apart from Gazan civilians. They're one of the most despicable organisations ever to have existed. Yeah, it sucks for the Palestinians. I find it inapropriate that you're blaming this on IDF. They're just doing what they need to do to neutralise Hammas.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

Fundamentally, it comes down to report what Hamas says or don't have anything to report. And the latter is intolerable to a news organization.

They could publish Israel's numbers. As far as I am aware they've always made a point of sharing accurate numbers (as far as they know). Israel has always been transparent and honest, throughout their dealings with the Palestinians. If you pay attention Israel's numbers always seem to line up with CIA's numbers. CIA gathers data indipendentaly.

The problem for the reporting, is that the Palestinian authority is hopelessly corrupt. Which means that no numbers in their official records are reliable. Gaza is in practice run by Hammas and Islamic Jihad. The offical government, "Palestinian Authority" doesn't do anything, other than to embezzle public funds. Since Hammas and Islamic Jihad aren't officially part of the goverment there's no transparency. They have no official records that can be verified. Most likely these numbers don't even exist. I doubt Hammas has the ability to accurate report on the dead, other than to count corpses. Something that cannot be done until after the war, and then it'll take months. The numbers they are reporting can at best be what they feel must be true, and then padded for propaganda purposes.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hammas and Islamic Jihad has wide popularity in Palestine. There's seemingly zero political will among the Palestinians to cooperate with Israel. Any movement to bridge the divide, are all Israeli/Jewish initiatives. The Jews are trying so hard to make friends, all the time. If there was any Palestinian interest in living in peace we'd seen some tangible result by now. They just keep going on about getting occupied land back. Which is not realistic, nor fair for the Jews.

This sounds like trolling.

The Jews (but not the Israelis?) are trying so hard to make friends but asking them to give back the land they stole is unfair ???

When Israel was founded every country surrounding Israel confiscated all Jewish lands and kicked out their Jews. They came to Israel, Where else were they supposed to go? At the same time, Arab propaganda told the Palestinians they were now going to be murdered (they weren't). So they fled. Israel temporarily settled the Jewish refugees in the now empty Palestinian homes.

And later the Palestinians tried to come back. Israel said that they will get their homes back when Jews get their property back in Jordan and Syria. This was happening at the same time as there was a series of Arab - Israeli wars... because Muslims objected to a non-Muslim state in the Middle-East.

Later the Israeli government suggested that perhaps the Palestinians can be settled on the Jewish land that had been confiscated by Jordan and Syria. I think also Egypt. Nobody was interested. The surrounding Muslim countries thought it was nice to have a desperate Muslim population caught within the borders of Israel, that they could exploit to cause trouble for Israel. And this is still the situation.

Yes, it's unfair to give back the confiscated lands to the Palestinians. You just don't seem to be aware of how Israel has been treated by it's Arab neighbours. It's not good.

 

[Swammerdami]

The comment is especially inappropriate given the huge abuse Israel has heaped on the Palestinians. Whatever the original causes of conflict, by now most Gazans are more worried about survival more than religion.

Because Hammas, as a tactic, is using Gazans are human shields. They're on purpose make it hard for the IDF to tell fighters apart from Gazan civilians. They're one of the most despicable organisations ever to have existed. Yeah, it sucks for the Palestinians. I find it inapropriate that you're blaming this on IDF. They're just doing what they need to do to neutralise Hammas.

Write on the blackboard fifty times: Two wrongs don't make a right. Nobody is claiming that Hamas is not despicable. We are just aware that effects have causes.

But first tell us where you stand on the matter of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, condemned throughout the world even by many Israelis. Are these settlements intended to combat terrorism? To the contrary, they provoke hatred and terrorism.

One Infidel asserts that the settlements are NOT illegal, that the legal status of the West Bank is some sort of "no man's land" where Israelis are entitled to seize land -- I dunno why, might makes right I guess -- and evict Palestinians. Do YOU agree with that Infidel? Are Palestinians not entitled to begrudge these settlements and the apartheid rules under which they now live because of some legality arising decades before they were born?

Or do you support the illegal settlements because of the allegations in the following song?

 

[Arctish]

Hammas and Islamic Jihad has wide popularity in Palestine. There's seemingly zero political will among the Palestinians to cooperate with Israel. Any movement to bridge the divide, are all Israeli/Jewish initiatives. The Jews are trying so hard to make friends, all the time. If there was any Palestinian interest in living in peace we'd seen some tangible result by now. They just keep going on about getting occupied land back. Which is not realistic, nor fair for the Jews.

This sounds like trolling.

The Jews (but not the Israelis?) are trying so hard to make friends but asking them to give back the land they stole is unfair ???

When Israel was founded every country surrounding Israel confiscated all Jewish lands and kicked out their Jews. They came to Israel, Where else were they supposed to go? At the same time, Arab propaganda told the Palestinians they were now going to be murdered (they weren't). So they fled. Israel temporarily settled the Jewish refugees in the now empty Palestinian homes.

And later the Palestinians tried to come back. Israel said that they will get their homes back when Jews get their property back in Jordan and Syria. This was happening at the same time as there was a series of Arab - Israeli wars... because Muslims objected to a non-Muslim state in the Middle-East.

Later the Israeli government suggested that perhaps the Palestinians can be settled on the Jewish land that had been confiscated by Jordan and Syria. I think also Egypt. Nobody was interested. The surrounding Muslim countries thought it was nice to have a desperate Muslim population caught within the borders of Israel, that they could exploit to cause trouble for Israel. And this is still the situation.

Yes, it's unfair to give back the confiscated lands to the Palestinians. You just don't seem to be aware of how Israel has been treated by it's Arab neighbours. It's not good.

First of all, you just gave us the Hollywood screenplay version of events, not the actual history. But let's take it at face value for now.

How about, instead of rewarding robbers by letting them keep all the stuff they stole, the robbers have to give the stolen stuff back and make restitution for the harm they did.

That sounds fair, right?

See, that way, the assholes who made <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> homeless and destitute don't benefit from their assholery any longer than they already have. They have to at least try to make amends. Justice might never be fully served but at least the victims of injustice get something resembling it.

Also, denying justice to <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> because some other racial/ethnic/religious group were assholes to another racial/ethnic/religious community, or even to the same one, doesn't lessen the injustice; it just prolongs it.

Jews who were mistreated in Bulgaria shouldn't have to wait for justice until after the Animists who were mistreated in Mali are compensated by the people who mistreated them. Bulgaria should compensate its victims because it victimized them. It should not continue to scheme to hold onto its ill-gotten gains. And it most certainly should not victimize even more people by continuing to carry out its campaign of mistreatment while the world waits for the Mali bandits to have a change of heart.

 

[Swammerdami]

It's not racist, "Palestinian" isn't a race.

In part BECAUSE the notion of gene-based human races is discredited, dictionaries agree that discrimination against ETHNIC groups can be called "racist." And

ethnic: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background.

 

[Gospel]

but you offer no other effective means of protecting their citizens.

Yes I did.

Can you come up with an example of a Muslim country that is working?

Saudi Arabia. What do I win?

Working?!

No. It's a mess propped up by oil money. Most work is performed by foreigners, many who are little better than slaves. So long as the oil money flows they can buy most of what they can't actually do.

The oil money is working.

 

[Gospel]

You keep focusing on tiny things to blame Israel for and ignore Iran pumping the money into conflict.

You must have a really hard time reading. I've repeatedly mentioned Iran supporting Hamas amongst other things.

 

[jonatha]

Return the hostages, we'll stop bombing you.

For two whole months...

The offer is return the hostages for a return to status quo ante. If Hamas continues to attack they'll eventually be slapped down again.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/22/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-hostages

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hammas and Islamic Jihad has wide popularity in Palestine. There's seemingly zero political will among the Palestinians to cooperate with Israel. Any movement to bridge the divide, are all Israeli/Jewish initiatives. The Jews are trying so hard to make friends, all the time. If there was any Palestinian interest in living in peace we'd seen some tangible result by now. They just keep going on about getting occupied land back. Which is not realistic, nor fair for the Jews.

This sounds like trolling.

The Jews (but not the Israelis?) are trying so hard to make friends but asking them to give back the land they stole is unfair ???

When Israel was founded every country surrounding Israel confiscated all Jewish lands and kicked out their Jews. They came to Israel, Where else were they supposed to go? At the same time, Arab propaganda told the Palestinians they were now going to be murdered (they weren't). So they fled. Israel temporarily settled the Jewish refugees in the now empty Palestinian homes.

And later the Palestinians tried to come back. Israel said that they will get their homes back when Jews get their property back in Jordan and Syria. This was happening at the same time as there was a series of Arab - Israeli wars... because Muslims objected to a non-Muslim state in the Middle-East.

Later the Israeli government suggested that perhaps the Palestinians can be settled on the Jewish land that had been confiscated by Jordan and Syria. I think also Egypt. Nobody was interested. The surrounding Muslim countries thought it was nice to have a desperate Muslim population caught within the borders of Israel, that they could exploit to cause trouble for Israel. And this is still the situation.

Yes, it's unfair to give back the confiscated lands to the Palestinians. You just don't seem to be aware of how Israel has been treated by it's Arab neighbours. It's not good.

First of all, you just gave us the Hollywood screenplay version of events, not the actual history. But let's take it at face value for now.

How about, instead of rewarding robbers by letting them keep all the stuff they stole, the robbers have to give the stolen stuff back and make restitution for the harm they did.

That sounds fair, right?

See, that way, the assholes who made <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> homeless and destitute don't benefit from their assholery any longer than they already have. They have to at least try to make amends. Justice might never be fully served but at least the victims of injustice get something resembling it.

Yes. That would be fair. That's just not the way the world works. Muslims don't seem to be able to listen to reason. It seems to be a feature of the religion. I'm not saying it's inevitable. But that is a strong Muslim trend. Wherever Islam is strong, diplomacy often dies.

What we in the west do wrong is that we see all the Muslims as one unit and we equate them. But they're very different. They also have low solidarity between the various groups.

We can't play into their (various Muslim groups in the Middle-East) bullshit rhetoric. It's better to take them at their words and treat them as if they're honest. If they claim to act as a unit and use that to justify keeping Jewish lands, then Jews should treat them as one unit. Even if they know they're not.

Also, denying justice to <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> because some other racial/ethnic/religious group were assholes to another racial/ethnic/religious community, or even to the same one, doesn't lessen the injustice; it just prolongs it.

Jews who were mistreated in Bulgaria shouldn't have to wait for justice until after the Animists who were mistreated in Mali are compensated by the people who mistreated them. Bulgaria should compensate its victims because it victimized them. It should not continue to scheme to hold onto its ill-gotten gains. And it most certainly should not victimize even more people by continuing to carry out its campaign of mistreatment while the world waits for the Mali bandits to have a change of heart.

Yes, funny

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The killing of minors in Gaza helps Hamas convinced young males to murder others and themselves. It isn't like the Palestinians have access to much news/media/etc... in Gaza.

The part that bothers me the most is what appears to be the complete lack of tactical gain for the Israelis in their actions, unless, they are indeed looking to permanently displace the Gazans, which is looking more and more like the case. Israeli soldiers are dying for what gain? How much safer is Israel today than on October 1st?

While Israel isn't talking about it's targets from what we see they keep hitting tunnels.

As a reminder, it is January... 3 months post the massacre. So either Hamas has so many tunnels it will be impossible to reduce the tunnel infrastructure to any real way that would impede Hamas or they are targeting "tunnels" and Netanyahu is continuing to use the military to create noise to distract from his failures.

Furthermore, they've killed about 1/3 of Hamas, that's going to take a long time to recover.

With this offensive? I can't imagine it'd take too long to begin with. It isn't like Hamas has an arduous 4 year study program that must be completed before they give some young male a weapon.

Israel perfectly well knows there is no permanent solution, it's about making it be as long as possible before they attack again.

Their actions really do feel like they are going with the permanent occupation of Gaza.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom

If they were untargeted, they were by definition not launched at anybody.

But according to this guy, they weren't untargeted.

The difference is that Gazans target civilians, while Israelis do not.

So, your thesis is that Gazans target civillians with untargeted bombs.

Which seems lacking in consistency and coherence, as theses go.

It would be more accurate to say, Hamas tried to lob dumb rockets towards populated areas. Their dumb rockets rarely do crap, even if they hit the ground before being intercepted. It was the actual massacre that mattered. The dumb rockets were a smokescreen.