TomC
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Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom
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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel
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Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom
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Ok I'm going out of pocket on this so take it easy like Sunday morning on me.
The IDF's aggressive bombing is a reaction to the indiscriminate assaults by Hamas, benefiting both parties. Hamas aims to gain Arab world support against Israel through these actions, while Israel uses them as justification to increase control over Palestine. Gazans generally understand the improbability of achieving a favorable outcome from the conflict. There is a widespread belief that Hamas, along with nations like Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, and even Saudi Arabia, lack true commitment to the Palestinian cause (in other words AINT NOBODY GIVES A CRAP ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS). Regarding the aid from Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran; one is seen as engaging in proxy wars, and the other, an ally of the U.S., is improving its relationship with Israel. If Saudi Arabia were truly invested, they could potentially mediate, leveraging their position to improve relations with both Iran (through China) and Israel (through the US) for the benefit of Palestinians and themselves. They could transform Palestine into a cultural tourism hub, with Jerusalem as a neutral global capital.
But that's a pipe dream.
Ok, I'm back in pocket again. By out of pocket I mean speaking frankly/wildly with no sources to back up my claims. I mean I do it all the time but this one is different. Trust me
laughing dog
Contributor
So it is revenge.
Your pointless "whataboutism" makes a distinction without an practical difference. Hamas (not Gazans) target civilians. The IDF allegedly does not target civilians but manages to kill 5 to 10 as many civilians as Hamas. Now, it may make you feel better that the IDF does not "intend" to kill 5 to 10 times as many civilians as Hamas does, but I am fairly certain the IDF's intent does not make those dead any less dead. Nor does it make any difference to their families. Nor does it reduce its effect on the cycle of revenge both sides carry out.
Your persistent conflation of Gazan with Hamas is consistent with the views of a bigoted Zionist. Your persistent iimplication that the Gazan civilian population (not Hamas) chose the Oct. 7 atrocity is also consistent with the view of bigoted Zionists. And the implication that means the Gazan civilian population deserves what is occuring reeks of gloating.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
For the same reason the authorities in Rome built a wall around the Rome Ghetto when they forced the Jews of Rome to live there: to control the movements and economic opportunities of an unwanted ethno-religious community, and to exploit them for the benefit of the preferred religious and racial demographic.
Non-Jewish Palestinians were forced into Gaza when their homes and property in Ashkelon and the surrounding area were seized by Zionists and turned over to immigrants from Europe. The newly created border was patrolled by the IDF and eventually a permanent, fortified barrier was built.
Meanwhile, Palestinian villages and cultural sites were destroyed to erase the indigenous Palestinian people's history and prevent their return.
"We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish, state here... Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of the Arab villages, and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exists; not only do the books not exist [but] the Arab villages are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul, Gvat in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Haneifs, and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tell Shaman. There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
— Moshe Dayan, Haaretz, 4 April 1969 <link>
Where are you getting your information?
Seriously, it's like everything you know about the conflict comes straight from some Fox News talking head.
The IDF has not historically been very gentle, unless you think shooting civilians doing things like enjoying a picnic or planting olive trees or even just sitting in a garden at home is a gentle way to treat unarmed civilians going about their lives.
I could go on for pages just listing instances where the IDF has been anything but gentle. The evidence of mistreatment of Palestinians is overwhelming.
This sounds like trolling.
The Jews (but not the Israelis?) are trying so hard to make friends but asking them to give back the land they stole is unfair ???
Enjoy your goat.
laughing dog
Contributor
Do you have a source for that?
Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom
TomC
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What source would you accept?Do you have a source for that?
Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom
Tom
laughing dog
Contributor
Just provide one instead of stalling.What source would you accept?Do you have a source for that?
Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom
Tom
It was the norm for the treatment of Jews in Muslim lands. That's the "peaceful coexistence" you want to return to.
There's no reason to put such a restriction on it. We don't have a lot of data points because the Muslims certainly aren't going to document it and they were the ones in charge.
The problem is you assume everything is as the terrorists say it is.
And you're mixing up "valid target" with "human shield". And if I remember correctly those "soccer players" were shooting an anti-tank missile. Against most anti-tank missiles the response is to put as much fire as possible as quickly as possible on where it came from because your best defense is to hit the guy guiding it. (And this is one of the reasons the Javelin is so potent--it's fire and forget, the shooter can get off the X as soon as the missile clears the tube, they don't have to stick around behind a smoke trail that screams "Shoot me!")
No. I question the automatic assignment of non-combatant status.
Which doesn't change the reality.
Anyway, we have a point of reference as to how accurately Israel is shooting. Hezbollah is reporting dead combatants.
Israel firing in south Lebanon kills over 200 since start of Gaza war
The number of people killed by Israeli fire into south Lebanon since the start of the war in Gaza has risen to more than 200, according to an AFP tally. Since the outbreak of war between Hamas and Israel on October 7, the Lebanese-Israeli...
87% of those killed are combatants.
And a reason to question the reports out of Gaza:
He says the IDF is shooting at them everywhere. But let's consider the facts:
1) You really think the IDF is going to single out someone in front of a reporter's camera to shoot??
2) Note the location. The IDF is not within rifle range of the location, even with a sniper rifle and that was a burst of fire. The shooter is pretty obviously Hamas or the like. But the world laps it up as wanton IDF killing of civilians.
The devil is in the details.
1) Note the specified timeframe. Specifically to exclude all of those escaping from Europe. That's going to skew the population more Muslim.
2) And nobody denies that overall the Muslims were a majority. Give the land to the majority, it goes to the Muslims. What the partition did differently is look at it piece by piece rather than as a whole. Give each chunk to the side that was most numerous in that chunk. Think of blue cities in red states. The Senators are Republican but some of the House of Representatives are Democrats. Same population, two ways of counting it.
I disagree with the formation of Israel. It was basically the last colonial act. However, I do not believe we should undo it. Nor do I think it's possible--the Jews are going to perceive such an attempt as an attempted genocide.
Knowing their actions will result in war doesn't make their actions right or wrong.
And the ones that were reduced to penniless beggars were the Jews. Most Muslim departures were before the fighting broke out and they took their stuff with them. Then when they wouldn't agree to not continue to fight they weren't allowed to return. It's the Jews who were expelled that lost everything.
You asked for evidence of massacring Jews and I was pointing out that I had already provided what you were asking for in a later post. You then walked that back to restrict it sufficiently that data would likely be hard to find. Yes, that was Algeria--but note that the tone is about how horrific it was but not that it was an uncommon event. The reporter was writing about something normal. Think plane crash vs alien spacecraft crash.
The offer is return the hostages for a return to status quo ante. If Hamas continues to attack they'll eventually be slapped down again.
The idea of Jerusalem as an open city was rejected by the Palestinians.
And at this point it would be rejected by Israel--they aren't going to trust their safety to a third party, especially given how the UN has behaved in Lebanon. They were supposed to keep Hezbollah from rearming--but they're willfully blind to the totally obvious.
And while I don't think His Flatulence should have moved the embassy I also don't think it's relevant. No peace move can counter the billions Iran is spending on war.
Willful blindness.
It always has been a call for genocide.
They pretended so for western consumption.
And don't trust Wikipedia only politically sensitive issue. They have two severe problems:
1) They are far more interested in a majority opinion than in facts. Sorry, you don't get to vote on the truth.
2) They are vulnerable to mass efforts to manipulate the "facts" and thus are increasingly coming under the control of the disinformation crowd. Same like Wikileaks soon became a tool of Moscow.
Actual authority comes from the money. Popular opinion means little in a dictatorship.
It's not racist, "Palestinian" isn't a race.
And it's because they have been under the control of radicalizers for a lifetime. Any group treated the way they have been is going to behave like wild animals. The only hope for reform is to quit throwing gas on the fire (supplying money for terror.)
Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't get it.
The Palestinians have never actually acknowledged Israel's right to exist. Rather, the majority used to accept Israel's existence elsewhere, unaware that there was no elsewhere.
And while they aren't unanimous Hamas supporters the 10/7 massacre enjoys widespread support. The thing is, they know what their leaders tell them, little more. In Arab lands one of the reasons to support 10/7 is to protect the Al Asqa Mosque. Never mind that the actual threat to it was from Hamas. (Israel shot down a Hamas rocket that would have hit the mosque. And, yes, they are very good at predicting where an inbound will land. They have years of practice in narrowing down the area where the sirens go off.)
The point is that it's irrelevant in the big picture. You're focusing on mice and ignoring the Iranian elephant.
We are not ignoring it. We are saying it's not a reason to change course. They knew what was going to happen and still support 10/7. If the Palestinian population considers it an acceptable price then who are we to tell them it's not?
That sort of stuff can't be hidden from the locals. But that doesn't mean the people actually support it.
Much more important to me is that the majority consider 10/7 a good thing. They have to know an ass-whooping was going to follow.
It's taught as part of their normal schooling there. Not full combat training, but that attacking Israel is the right thing to do and that they should aid the effort.
And clear evidence of why I say Wikipedia is untrustworthy.
2/17/48, calls the responsible party "Jewish settlers" but the description is "57 Arabs killed while taking part in attack on Jewish settlements Tirat Tzvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein HaNatziv". Really now, blaming people for defending themselves? Yeah, if you read the description it's clear but if you're just counting up numbers you'll miss that. That makes me question how accurate the rest of the table is.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
Link to your sources, Loren.
Show us that you know which Proposal we're talking about, the date it was submitted, and to whom.
I believe you are bullshitting. Prove me wrong here.
Show us the Proposal.
The rest of your post is just more bullshit and Zionist dogma, and attempts to shift the conversation away from Israel and Palestine so you can include things that happened on different continents at different times. For example:
The Palestinians who were reduced to penniless beggars by Zionist terrorists carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Palestine were Jews?
Do tell. And link to your sources.
Also, most Muslim departures happened before "the fighting" broke out? Do you mean the riots in the 1920s, the terrorist bombings and shootings of the 1930s, or shortly before April 2, 1948 when Plan Dalet was enacted?
Link to wherever you got that information, too.
Also please link to the source of information that Palestinians were offered the chance to return to their homes. And who exactly was pushing for it? I already know Ben Gurion and Sharett were 100% opposed. I'm sure Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir had plenty to say about undoing all the hard work the Irgun and Lehi terrorists had done to ethnically cleanse the land of non-Jews so a Jewish State could be formed. Who was it that wanted to bring the non-Jews back and had the political capital to make that offer?