Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

That's just not the way the world works. Muslims don't seem to be able to listen to reason. It seems to be a feature of the religion. I'm not saying it's inevitable. But that is a strong Muslim trend. Wherever Islam is strong, diplomacy often dies.

What we in the west do wrong is that we see all the Muslims as one unit and we equate them. But they're very different. They also have low solidarity between the various groups.

And yet you seem to be doing it in your first paragraph.

No, I didnt

Um - Muslims don't seem to be able to listen to reason. is treating Muslims as one unit.

 

[laughing dog]

Your pointless "whataboutism" makes a distinction without an practical difference. Hamas (not Gazans) target civilians. The IDF allegedly does not target civilians but manages to kill 5 to 10 as many civilians as Hamas. Now, it may make you feel better that the IDF does not "intend" to kill 5 to 10 times as many civilians as Hamas does, but I am fairly certain the IDF's intent does not make those dead any less dead. Nor does it make any difference to their families. Nor does it reduce its effect on the cycle of revenge both sides carry out.

1) It's not whataboutism. They knew the force disparity when they attacked. They knew what would follow and chose it. That means they consider the 1,200 dead Israelis more important than the ~20,000 dead Palestinians.

2) We don't know how many of those were killed by Israel. In more limited exchanges it tends to be about 1/4 of the dead were killed by rockets that fell short. AFIAK no such analysis yet exists for this fighting. We do, however, have multiple incidents that only make sense if it's Hamas killing people for propaganda purposes or to make them stay put and act as human shields.

3) A lot of them are dead because they were being used as human shields.

4) Cycle of revenge is Palestinian propaganda. Israel isn't after revenge, they are after reducing future attacks. History has repeatedly shown that the only way to do that is to smash Hamas equipment and organization. Quit attacking Israel, they'll quit shooting back. It's always the Palestinians breaking the ceasefires. It's just attacks from Hamas are not news so if you're not paying attention it looks like Israel attacking out of the blue.

Thank for proving the perfect example of kneejerk apologia for the IDF. The Gazan civilians are dead because the IDF dropped bombs on them. Agreement with IDF tactics does not negate the laws of physics or cause and effect. Your argument tacitly assumes that the IDF had no choice but to drop bombs which is ridiculous assumption.

Your persistent conflation of Gazan with Hamas is consistent with the views of a bigoted Zionist. Your persistent iimplication that the Gazan civilian population (not Hamas) chose the Oct. 7 atrocity is also consistent with the view of bigoted Zionists. And the implication that means the Gazan civilian population deserves what is occuring reeks of gloating.

The Gazan civilian population says 10/7 was a good thing. We are just repeating what they said. And "deserves" is the wrong word--they attacked knowing what would happen. Thus they consider it a favorable rate of exchange. In other words, Palestinian lives are of little value in the mind of the Palestinians.

Applauding something after the fact does not mean approval before the fact. Your ability to twist reason must be very tiring.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course they all knew about it. It was the worst kept secret. Everyone knew about it. Everyone. Israel and USA had been saying since the moment Hammas took power for the first time in Gaza.

They removed many of the orchsrds (Gazas main income) and replaced it with military installations.

Oh, really?

Everyone except the Israelis could see military installations being built where there used to be orchards. Which is weird considering the Israelis have all those observation points built into the containment wall being patrolled 24/7 by IDF soldiers. And yet the Israelis failed to do anything about the deadly peril even though they kill people in Gaza via artillery, tank fire, and drone strikes regularly.

Why do you think they built the wall?

For the same reason the authorities in Rome built a wall around the Rome Ghetto when they forced the Jews of Rome to live there: to control the movements and economic opportunities of an unwanted ethno-religious community, and to exploit them for the benefit of the preferred religious and racial demographic.

Explain, then, why many chunks of the wall are built to block small arms fire, not merely people.

And explain why Egypt was even more aggressive about wall-building.

And Israel doesn't block commerce in peaceful goods across the border. Military goods are not permitted, dual use stuff only with regulation that obviously proved inadequate so I expect it to get a lot stricter.

Non-Jewish Palestinians were forced into Gaza when their homes and property in Ashkelon and the surrounding area were seized by Zionists and turned over to immigrants from Europe. The newly created border was patrolled by the IDF and eventually a permanent, fortified barrier was built.

You realize that most of the Palestinians left of their own accord before the 1948 war? They were getting out of the way of the war they knew was coming and they backed the wrong horse. The ones that stayed are fully a part of Israel now.

They could see what was happening. The IDF has historically been very gentle in how they handle the Palestinians. They let the Palestinians get away with the most awful stuff all the time. The Palestinians are the worst neighbours. IDF only gets involved to stop the most egregrious Palestinian offences. But mostly they have left the Palestinians alone, even though it's been obvious all the time what Hammas has been planning. That's why the Israelis are so angry with Netanyahu for his failure 7/10. They knew an attack like this would happen. The IDF had planned for it. Yet when it came, couldn't catch them in time.

Where are you getting your information?

Seriously, it's like everything you know about the conflict comes straight from some Fox News talking head.

I'm sure you know my opinion of Faux Noise.

Remember, when this started I was surprised only by the scale, not by what happened? I'm not Israeli, just someone who has been paying a bit of attention to what's actually going on. It's the people who swallowed the Palestinian propaganda that were shocked. Most events aren't out of the blue. When they shock that's a pretty good indication that one's understanding of the situation is wrong.

Of course Hamas was going to attack, the only question was when. And hostages are prized above all else. And massacres if that's not possible. Israel perfectly well knew this, but the world won't let them go around disrupting attacks that haven't happened yet. They have to watch and only react once the attack starts--and obviously they let their guard down a bit too much.

The IDF has not historically been very gentle, unless you think shooting civilians doing things like enjoying a picnic or planting olive trees or even just sitting in a garden at home is a gentle way to treat unarmed civilians going about their lives.

HRW is not a credible organization. Let's look at your first piece of garbage:

“Month after month, Israeli forces have wounded and killed unarmed Palestinians who did nothing but cross an invisible, shifting line that Israel has drawn inside Gaza’s perimeter,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “It’s appalling that soldiers have shot men, women, and children apparently for simply crossing a line.”

Both sides know where it was. Those weren't innocent civilians, those were people deliberately probing Israel's border response. (Admittedly, sometimes as unwitting pawns--but an unwitting pawn is still a de facto combatant.) And Hamas accomplished what it wanted, the engagement point shifted to actually trying to cross the border fence. This let "civilians" come up to the fence and plant charges.

And your second one isn't so innocent, either:

Sadil was sitting in the garden of her family’s home, opposite the Zahra neighborhood north of Jenin refugee camp, and used her phone to record Israeli military vehicles on a street near her home. As an armored Israeli military vehicle passed near her house, an Israeli soldier opened the vehicle’s back door and fired two bullets at Sadil.

Once again, we have a recon element, not a civilian.

If all you can produce about mistreatment of civilians doesn't actually involve civilians that says a lot about how weak your position is. And it says a lot about that site's credibility when they claim civilian status when they clearly had evidence to the contrary.

The Jews (but not the Israelis?) are trying so hard to make friends but asking them to give back the land they stole is unfair ???

You are asking the Jews to commit suicide.

 

[TomC]

Thank for proving the perfect example of kneejerk apologia for the IDF. The Gazan civilians are dead because the IDF dropped bombs on them. Agreement with IDF tactics does not negate the laws of physics.

Your knee-jerk apologia for terrorism is astounding.
IDF bombed Gaza because Gazans violently attacked Israel. That's why.

It's not because1948. It's not because Muslims are systemically bigoted against Jews. It's because Gazans launched a huge terrorist attack, on October 7th, and IDF is expected to prevent a recurrence of that threat.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom

Do you have a source for that?

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

 

[TomC]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

 

[bilby]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

You realize basically any such image out of Gaza is done by Hamas, very often staged by Hamas. And sometimes not even real. (AI goofs have been seen.) Never take them at face value.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should not believe that there are both chickens and rubble in Gaza, because the photograph of them was probably staged by a propagandist? To what possible purpose?

Seriously, you should seek psychological help, if this is your response to my tongue in cheek post about the (nonexistent) Gazan Air Force. Your paranoia is off the charts.

 

[TomC]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

You realize basically any such image out of Gaza is done by Hamas, very often staged by Hamas. And sometimes not even real. (AI goofs have been seen.) Never take them at face value.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should not believe that there are both chickens and rubble in Gaza, because the photograph of them was probably staged by a propagandist? To what possible purpose?

Seriously, you should seek pahychological help, if this is your response to my tongue in cheek post about the (nonexistent) Gazan Air Force. Your paranoia is off the charts.

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

Someone needs a refresher course in reading comprehension. I asked for source for the number of bombs. So far, it seems you pulled that number out of your ass.

 

[laughing dog]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

Last I knew, Gazans had launched over a thousand untargeted bombs at Israelis on October 7.
Tom

Do you have a source for that?

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Perhaps you have a source for the number of projectiles launched by Hamas on Oct. 7. If you do, would you please present it. If not, stop derailing the thread with bullshit accusations of derailment.

 

[TomC]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

No, I need a source for the number of bombs. So far, it seems you pulled that number out of your ass.

Do you, or do you not, believe that over 1000 missiles were launched from Gaza into Israel on October 7th?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

No, I need a source for the number of bombs. So far, it seems you pulled that number out of your ass.

Do you, or do you not, believe that over 1000 missiles were launched from Gaza into Israel on October 7th?
Tom

What I believe is not relevant. I asked for a source about a claim of fact. Apparently you don't have one.

 

[TomC]

What I believe is not relevant. I asked for a source about a claim of fact. Apparently you don't have one.

I would have trouble coming up with a clear source for Trump's presidency.
Or tomorrow's sunrise in the east.

But you can go on dodging around Gazan violence because you need a source that you can dismiss.
Tom

 

[TomC]

"The military said some 9,500 missiles, rockets and drones were fired at Israel from Gaza and other fronts since Oct. 7, and 2,000 of them had been shot down by air defences designed to ignore projectiles on a course to land harmlessly in open areas."
This is snippet from Reuters, early December."
If you still aren't sure what to believe, Google it yourself.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

No argument? Just call them anti-Semites.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

No argument? Just call them anti-Semites.

 

[TomC]

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

No argument? Just call them anti-Semites.

Argue against what?
Even bilby claimed he didn't mean it.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

No argument? Just call them anti-Semites.

Argue against what?
Even bilby claimed he didn't mean it.
Tom

bibly did no such thing. What bilby said is Hamas doesn't have an air force and the claim still stands. Lauren then went on a rampage about how the images of chickens might be faked.

 

[bilby]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

You realize basically any such image out of Gaza is done by Hamas, very often staged by Hamas. And sometimes not even real. (AI goofs have been seen.) Never take them at face value.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should not believe that there are both chickens and rubble in Gaza, because the photograph of them was probably staged by a propagandist? To what possible purpose?

Seriously, you should seek pahychological help, if this is your response to my tongue in cheek post about the (nonexistent) Gazan Air Force. Your paranoia is off the charts.

Given what I see as so much vicious hypocrisy and poor information I see from the anti-Semites on this thread, your tongue-in-cheek comment just looked like more of the same.
Tom

Yeah, I'm an anti-Semite.

Half of my family are Jewish; I grew up surrounded by Jewish traditions and culture; I was at school before I even realised that Jews were supposedly different from gentiles.

When I first learned about the rise of Nazi Germany, and the teacher said that people were being abused just for looking Jewish, I was genuinely confused, because I couldn't see how Jewish people looked different from everybody else. I mean, you can see who takes after his mother or his father in appearance; But the idea that Jewishness was a visible characteristic astonished me.

But sure, if I am not a wholehearted backer of everything Bibi Netanyahu does, I must be anti-Semitic.

 

[TomC]

No argument? Just call them anti-Semites.

And to repeat something I've said before. I dislike confusing "anti-Semitism with anti-Jewish bigotry, under most circumstances. The Palestinians are nearly as Semitic as Jews.

But people defending Islamic violence against Jews are causing more damage to the Palestinians than the Zionists. Zionists will respond to violent attacks with more violence. And not proportional to the deaths and destruction caused by the Islamist terrorists. It will be proportional to the ongoing threat of more Islamic violence.
Tom