Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Unsurprisingly you have it wrong. Making a pass can involve assault which makes it illegal.

"Making a pass" usually does not mean an assault. If lpetrich wanted to mean an assault he would have said so.

 

[laughing dog]

Unsurprisingly you have it wrong. Making a pass can involve assault which makes it illegal.

"Making a pass" usually does not mean an assault.

It didn't, but it can mean it now. And "can" means it has the potential, not that it is necessarily so. Besides, you claimed "Making "a pass" is neither an assault nor in any way "illegal.

If lpetrich wanted to mean an assault he would have said so.

I didn't realize that you were a mind reader.

 

[Derec]

Typical Houndian derail by hair splitting that contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.

 

[laughing dog]

Typical Houndian derail by hair splitting that contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.

The above response is a perfect example of the irony-impaired or from those who have little regard for those who receive unwanted sexual advances or the Palestinians.

 

[Arctish]

There just something about Muslims that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Israels problem. But it is. Its like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?

Let's try this:

"There's just something about Jews that make them hard to cooperate with. They seem unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society. And that shouldn't be Germany's problem. But it is. It's like an abusive relationship where one side refuses to go to therapy. Who's fault and responsibility is that?"

^That sounds awfully racist, doesn't it? Do you want to rephrase part of your post, or are you sticking with the condescending tone and bigoted wording?

Okay, let me see if I've got this straight. It's awfully racist and bigoted for DrZ to accuse Muslims in general of being hard to cooperate with on account of some particular Muslims having been unable to cope with being in a minority position in a society? Do I have that right?

...
Yes, it's unfair to give back the confiscated lands to the Palestinians. You just don't seem to be aware of how Israel has been treated by it's Arab neighbours. It's not good.

First of all, you just gave us the Hollywood screenplay version of events, not the actual history. But let's take it at face value for now.

How about, instead of rewarding robbers by letting them keep all the stuff they stole, the robbers have to give the stolen stuff back and make restitution for the harm they did.

That sounds fair, right?

See, that way, the assholes who made <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> homeless and destitute don't benefit from their assholery any longer than they already have. They have to at least try to make amends. Justice might never be fully served but at least the victims of injustice get something resembling it. ...

Okay, let me see if I've got this straight. Israelis in general are robbers and assholes who stole stuff and did harm and made some other ethnic group homeless and destitute. And you deduced this from them being born into a country founded by some particular Israelis who were robbers and assholes and are long dead. Do I have that right?

So either this means you're racist and bigoted against Israelis, or else this means it's racist and bigoted to blame innocent people for the actions of completely different guilty people if their ethnicity is high on the progressive stack but not racist and bigoted to do it if their ethnicity is low on the progressive stack.

Outgroups are like children. It's different when they're yours.

It appears that I haven't been wordy enough.

Armed militant Zionists who murdered people and stole their stuff are robbers and assholes. People who received that obviously stolen property weren't necessarily robbers but may have been complicit in the robbery. They may have lionized the assholes, and sanitized and mythologized the campaign of murder and terrorism into a story they could tell their children without shame. They may have been assholes themselves but they might also have been victims of other murderous assholes and robbers. They might have been desperate for shelter and sympathetic to others who had similarly suffered. They might have willingly given the houses back to the other victims if it had been possible for them to do so. Not everyone who received stolen property was happy about how it came to be theirs. They should not be conflated with people who think "might makes right" and "to the biggest murderous assholes go the spoils".

Israelis who supported the Irgun and Lehi terrorists, who supported terrorists like Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir and their protege Benjamin Netanyahu, and who support the on-going theft of land and resources in the West Bank, are part of the problem, not its solution.

Israelis who want a just and fair society that respects the rights of everyone regardless of their religious or tribal affiliation aren't necessarily part of the solution, but they are necessary for it to become reality. Nothing will change if they just passively drift along, benefitting from the assholery of others and complaining about criticism of Israeli policies that rob Palestinians of their homeland and their human rights.

If you need me to be more wordy and talk about the differences between militant murderous Zionists, passive philosophical Zionists, Muslim Israelis, Arab Jews, and other communities of people in Israel and Palestine, or if you need me to devise a system of timestamps to make it less confusing when history is brought into a discussion of current events, I might give it a go later tonight.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Pretty good article from a West Bank resident who is tired of the conflict:

MSN

www.msn.com

I think that he nailed it in that in his opinion, Hamas will always reject a two state solution because "... it means you would get a promise for a [Palestinian] state, yet you are required to recognize the legitimacy of the other state, which is the Zionist entity... We will not give up on our right to Palestine in its entirety, from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea." Yes, the current far right leaders of Israel also reject the two state solution. But there won't be a true peace there until two state is implemented.

 

[Arctish]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

No.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc. are where violent bigots gather to plan and commit acts designed to force their opponents to comply with their desires. Just like Zionist terrorists who devised and implemented Plan Dalet. Just like the KKK keeping Black Americans separate and subjugated. Just like the Cossacks carrying out pogroms in Ukraine, the Spanish enslaving Taino in the Caribbean, and every other group who used violence to force others into submission throughout history.

There are many political parties that believe strongly in their vision of how the world should be, but when they cross the line into murder or welcome murderers into their midst they've lost all legitimacy in my view.

I think Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza because it is killing thousands of unarmed civilians. Their deaths won't make Israel any safer, it will rightfully turn more and more people against Israel.

So what is Israel supposed to do when invaders enter their land? You say Israel can defend itself but complain when they do. How else are the perpetrators to be found and punished?

Israeli defense forces are supposed to defend Israelis under attack. The police are supposed to detain people suspected of committing, or being about to commit, crimes. What they are not supposed to do is kill unarmed civilians, or detain them for years on end without charge, especially when those civilians aren't even in Israel.

In no way have I ever argued that Israelis are supposed to allow themselves to be killed when murderous assholes attack them. What I have argued against is the blatant double standard that lauds Israelis and vilifies non-Israelis who are doing the exact same thing.

I think Israel needs to not only stop building settlements, it needs to relocate the settlers and offer the empty housing to the Palestinians it made refugees when Zionists and the IDF destroyed their homes.

The Israeli settlements need to stop.

I think Israel should never stop wanting the hostages back, and not expect the Palestinians to stop wanting their people back either.

I think Israel should release everyone it is holding in administrative detention, i.e. prisoners who have never been charged with any crime, much less convicted, and should allow an impartial international panel to review the evidence and court proceedings of any non-Israeli who was convicted of a crime. There are credible allegations of torture and suppression of evidence when it comes to Palestinians accused of being enemy combatants. I think it's important for people to believe that justice, not vengeance, is being served.

An impartial international panel? Do let us know when you have created one. Let's get Hamas/Hezbollah etc. allow their actions to be examined by said same impartial panel.

Yes, let's.

I doubt Hamas has any evidence it can use to justify the on-going detention of the Israelis they are keeping prisoner. If my suspicions are correct, we can condemn them freely. And if Israel can't produce evidence to justify its detention of Palestinians, we can condemn that, too.

I don't know the details of the peace plan de jure, but I doubt it's so sweet that every asshole in Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can.

And for how long must Israel turn the other cheek?

Do you think the peace plan de jure requires Israel to allow Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. to raid Israel, attack it with rocket fire, and permit the killing of Jews? Or is this just extremist rhetoric intended to discredit the very notion of peace between Israel and the people of Palestine?

I do think a good deal would make the less fanatic back off, and the more pragmatic relent entirely. However, I also believe a sweet deal, or even any deal that allows a Palestinian State for be established on Palestine, would inspire fanatic Zionists to murder anyone who supports it, even Jews. They did it before and I expect they will do it again. Likewise for any deal that grants full and equal rights to Palestinians in a One State solution.

The challenge is to stand up to violent racist bigots and not let them be the driving force in society. Moderates are at a disadvantage when it comes to what they're willing to do to win that fight, but there is strength in numbers. I truly believe that moderates outnumber the murderous assholes in Israel and the Occupied Territories and that someday they will prevail.

I agree that violent, racist bigots must be stood up too. But thinking kind thoughts and sprinkling fairy dust over everyone will not achieve that. Sometimes battles must be fought as a last resort.

And some battles must be fought when the bloodletting that led to the battle is still fresh.

Netanyahu and the murderous Zionist zealots who first encouraged and then allowed the murder of Yitzhak Rabin to go unpunished, should have been voted out of the government years ago. But they're still in power, and the threat to any Israeli backing a genuine peace plan is still present.

Hardcore bigots and those who benefit from the fighting, the US included, are keeping this conflict alive. IMO if we want to call ourselves moral persons then we must oppose them. And we must not be afraid to criticize when we feel it's warranted.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Justice, fairness, respect, and upholding the rights of all persons equally is the only thing that has ever resolved conflicts like the one going on in Israel and Palestine. The sooner we apply one single standard when we judge the rightness or wrongness of a person's or nation's acts, the better for everyone.

A single standard only works when all parties agree o abide by it. If one or more parties do not then it is much harder. Israel is more likely to agree to that than Hamas/Hezbollah etc. It is the implementation where the issues will arise.

IMO bombing civilians who have gathered together to seek shelter, or to get a hot meal, or to enjoy a music festival, is utterly immoral no matter who did it to whom. The perpetrators must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box, and those who have chosen diplomacy and negotiation instead of terrorism and brutality must be supported.

How will you defeat the perpetrators on the ground unless you go at get them?

What part of "they must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box" do you not understand?

I wish the fighting to end but I cannot see how a resolution is possible when one side is dedicated to the destruction of the other. River to the sea means in the eyes of Hamas/Hezbollah/ Islamic Jihad etc. that Israel cannot exist. The Jews will never be safe whilst they do not have a land of their own.

Jews will never be safe as long as people think someone being Jewish, or not being Jewish, is a reason to target them for abuse, mistreatment, and ignoring their human rights. A person's safety isn't a matter of them having their own state. It's a matter of what they State they live in does to them or for them, and why.

Israel can be a secular State where everyone is treated equally regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. (One State solution). Or it can be a racist religious ethno-state where the State decrees where you can live, what roads you can drive on, which communities you can enter and whether or not you have to leave by sundown (Two State solution). Or it can try to wipe out the Palestinian people altogether either through rigorous ethnic cleansing or genocide, and have all of Palestine become part of the State of Israel without the indigenous Palestinian population being brought in as well (Rogue State solution).

I prefer the One State solution for reasons having to do with living in a peaceful mixed race, mixed religion, mixed cultural heritage place in the world.

The Two State solution can work if both states have enough arable land, access to vital resources, and freedom to chart their own course without sabotage from the other. It won't be easy to achieve but it can be done.

The Rogue State solution gets a hard No! from me.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Everybody here who is pro-Palestine, why aren't you condemning Hammas for not cooperating with IDF to protect civilians? Hammas is doing it as hard as possible for IDF to avoid hurting civilians. How are you ok with that? Where's your compassion for the Palestinian civilians? It has to be possible for civilians to be left out of an armed conflict. Why are you ok with Hammas using civilians as human shields? The western support for Hammas is just mindboggling.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Pretty good article from a West Bank resident who is tired of the conflict:

MSN

www.msn.com

I think that he nailed it in that in his opinion, Hamas will always reject a two state solution because "... it means you would get a promise for a [Palestinian] state, yet you are required to recognize the legitimacy of the other state, which is the Zionist entity... We will not give up on our right to Palestine in its entirety, from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea." Yes, the current far right leaders of Israel also reject the two state solution. But there won't be a true peace there until two state is implemented.

A two-state is a non-starter if one of the two states has made a solemn promise to perpetually fight until victory. I think Israel has shown that they will respect it. While the Palestinians have not. So the only fair solution is to disolve the two state solution and let Israel handle security from now on. They'll still allow Palestinian autonomy. But it will need to be done with adult supervision. The Palestinians obvoiusly can't be trusted to completely run their own show. I think that's been well established by this point.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But Hammas and the Israeli government are qualitatively different. Israel is accountable and responsible. Hammas gives no fucks about anything. They respect no rules and have no morals.

Hamas** is accountable and responsible to those who bankroll it,

Yes, which is Iran. The Palestinians do get money from elsewhere. There's a lot of people who give money to the Palestinian people. But since the money tends to be given to Hammas and Islamic Jihad, that donated money mostly goes to rockets, rather than anything useful.

just as the Israelis are. Israel certainly doesn't feel accountable to the UN, and the Likud government believes that it can even ignore the US administration, even though it depends on their support.

Nah. The people who wield actual power in the world tend to be well informed. I think the only way to be pro-Hamas is to have swallowed dumb propaganda. You won't get actual power if you are naive enough to fall for the Palestinian bullshit.

The pro-palestinian voices in the west is just noise. I think it's unlikely to have an impact. All governments must be aware that they need to back Israel now. Anything else is unworkable. But politicians are politicians. They can think and do different things

** Pedantic note on spelling: the food "hummus" is spelled with a double m, because the word is pronounced with a geminate /mm/. There is also a word hammas in Finnish and Estonian that means "tooth". The organization name Hamas is spelled with a single m in Arabic (حماس), Hebrew (חמאס), English, Danish, and every other script I know. Apparently, it stands for the acronym of "Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyya", which mean "Islamic Resistance Movement".

Cool. Thanks

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[DrZoidberg]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

I'm guilty of making the same kind of assumptions (assumption regarding Hungary in another thread). As Americans in a two party system, we are more used to a united government and cabinet.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

It is news relevant to the thread. For what reason are you attacking me? Are you doing that to change the subject? It is very clear that I always point out most things in life are multi-variate and each variables is most often a continuum or spectrum. Ergo, I would never claim all or most Israelis are fascist right-wingers who are trying to settle Gaza. But contrary to your point, it makes no sense to pretend these people have zero impact, though. When extremists settle, there is a ripple effect of impacts and those impacts are not unbiased and indifferent by different interests. Being aware of current events such as this as they relate to Israel and Gaza keep us aware of the different possible futures of the conflict. Trying to shut me down shuts down pathways of thinking.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole.

Your objections to observing reality are obscene. This is relevant, because these calls are getting louder and louder, and not merely from a couple radicals out in the corners.

Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

And these radicals actually do have a say, so your objection is ridiculous. Israeli military actions have been supportive of an Israeli civilian permanent occupation.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

To be clear, Israel doesn't actually have a government right now. Netanyahu is in charge based on a special agreement that only exists because of the necessity of having a leader post the 10/7 massacre.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

I'm guilty of making the same kind of assumptions (assumption regarding Hungary in another thread). As Americans in a two party system, we are more used to a united government and cabinet.

Being ignorant of Israel, I needed to look it up, but it appears a "Minister" is a mix between a "Secretary" in the Biden Admin and being the Chair of a Senate Committee (please correct me if I'm mistaken). Having 11 of those in support of this is not insignificant. Especially if it includes the guy who is Minister of National Security.

Zoidberg wants to pretend these are just radicals... but these people are the base of Netanyahu's power structure in Israel (and also part of his Coalition 'Government'). This isn't some GOP'er State Rep in Idaho type politician.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Did you post this as a way to spread the lie that the the majority of the Israeli government wants the Palestinians to leave. What was your goal with making the post?

I'm guilty of making the same kind of assumptions (assumption regarding Hungary in another thread). As Americans in a two party system, we are more used to a united government and cabinet.

Absolutely. Do note that 11 out of 37 cabinet ministers did attend. That's 30%. An analogy to Nazis in Sweden is incongruent with that level of executive or social influence. A better analogy might be to the anti-immigrant movement in Sweden, though both analogies might also be apples to oranges. Since analogies are imperfect, it might be better to just observe the event happened without analogies for now.

 

[TomC]

Zoidberg wants to pretend these are just radicals... but these people are the base of Netanyahu's power structure in Israel (and also part of his Coalition 'Government'). This isn't some GOP'er State Rep in Idaho type politician.

Lots of times, radicalized opinions get blown out of proportion. But this doesn't seem like one. Hamas' behavior, from arming for and launching the terrorist attack of Oct 7, to holding hostages today, are boosting the political clout of these "let's just take over Gaza" people.

I cannot imagine Gazans leadership and their supporters not realizing this last summer. They did what they did anyway.

Apparently, Netanyahu is on his way out. He wasn't hard edged enough to prevent the attack. Who do you suppose is likely to replace him? Hamas did them a huge favor.

The bitter old curmudgeonly cynic in me can't help but wonder. Was Netanyahu setting up his successors to be even more militaristic? He's in his late 70s. He wasn't going to be there long anyway. Was he and Likud giving the Gazans enough rope to hang themselves?
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Netanyahu is a radical fool. I give him no more credit than he deserves... much like how W was caught flat footed by the al Qaeda attack, despite how much of a significance al Qaeda was given in the Clinton Admin. That they take advantage of it, well, that is old school tyranny. Netanyahu never wanted peace.

I can't speak to what Hamas is thinking. Clearly they knew they were going "too far" because they took a lot of hostages, as the otherwise "salt the earth" targeted Mossad response would have been quite something. I'd imagine Mossad would have decapitated the top of Hamas, not the bottom as the IDF is doing now, making it appear a permanent civilian occupation is underway. But overall, this attack was never going to make things easier for any party, except the perpetual war folks, which is the only justification I can think they had... that they wanted to create a larger scale military conflict. Which sucks for the Gazans because even if Israel lost, the Gazans would lose everything still. But the arseholes in Iran would be happy.

 

[laughing dog]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Why did you post this?

Again... Israel has proportional representation. If some Israelis are extremists, some extremists will be in Knesset. It does not reflect Israel as a whole. Sweden is the same. We have actual Nazis in parliament. Somehow, they have had absolutely zero impact on Swedish policy.

Netanhyu's coalition depends on the extremists. Which is why Israel turns a blind eye to settler violence in the West Bank and why Israel is taking such a hard line in Gaza.

Right now, the extremists hold sway in the Israeli gov't because of the voting population's votes. Stop pretending otherwise.