Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[lpetrich]

DrZoidberg, if you made a pass at a woman and she snipped off some cherished bits with garden shears, would she be justified in doing so by claiming that you wanted to rape her?

You used that stupid analogy before. You are using it again, even though I showed why it's not a good analogy.

Making "a pass" is neither an assault nor in any way illegal.

Unsurprisingly you have it wrong. Making a pass can involve assault which makes it illegal.

A woman may fear that a man who makes a pass at her would move on to raping her if she does not appreciate that pass.

 

[lpetrich]

Or tent cities nearby. I think that Israel ought to offer the Gazan civilians citizenship and the opportunity to return to their ancestral homes in exchange for supporting Israel against Hamas. That would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish ethnostate, but that's a small price to pay for fighting Hamas. Giving sovereignty over the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority would also be good.

That's completely unrealistic and would be a capitulation to Hamas in practice.

How is that "unrealistic" and a "capitulation to Hamas"?

As far as Israel ceasing to be a Jewish state - there are about a dozen or so Arab states, and nobody is opposed to them existing. Why is the Left so offended at the existence of a single Jewish state that they want it to become an Arab state as well?

Stupid argument. As if an ethnicity has an absolute right to having a nation-state, and having one with total disregard for any other people who may be living among them.

That's also like saying that you have no right to complain about anything in the US because you can always move to the numerous other former British or US colonies or even Britain itself.  Anglosphere

If you hate to have to learn any language other than English, you can stick to the numerous places where there are large numbers of English speakers:  English-speaking world

 

[lpetrich]

Everybody here who is pro-Palestine, why aren't you condemning Hammas for not cooperating with IDF to protect civilians? ...

Do you know what I think about Hamas?

I think that Israeli and Hamas leaders ought to share jail cells. Like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ismail Haniyeh. Also Israeli snipers who shoot civilians and Hamas rocketeers. They deserve each other.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Everybody here who is pro-Palestine, why aren't you condemning Hammas for not cooperating with IDF to protect civilians? ...

Do you know what I think about Hamas?

I think that Israeli and Hamas leaders ought to share jail cells. Like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ismail Haniyeh. Also Israeli snipers who shoot civilians and Hamas rocketeers. They deserve each other.

I think you're just being "there's two sides to every story" coward. If you need more evidence what despicable animals Hamas is, check this out. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. Ie, using sick and wounded Palestinians as human shields. And you think these sides are even remotely equal in crime?

Share Message - Israeli forces kill three Palestinian militants in West Bank hospital raid

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid

CCTV captures undercover forces disguised as medics and nurses in the hospital with weapons raised.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Swammerdami]

I think you're just being "there's two sides to every story" coward. If you need more evidence what despicable animals Hamas is, check this out. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. Ie, using sick and wounded Palestinians as human shields. And you think these sides are even remotely equal in crime?

Three (or six or nineteen) wrongs do not make a right -- we learned that in 2nd grade -- and that's true even when one of the wrongs is vewy vewy vewy wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

When one side is doing wrong, that does not mean their victim/opponent is doing right.

Pointing out that the IDF’s tactics are disproportionate or criminal does mot mean Hamas is justified or innocent. It means that many more thousands of innocent civilians are being killed by IDF munitions than by Hamas terrorists.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Everybody here who is pro-Palestine, why aren't you condemning Hammas for not cooperating with IDF to protect civilians? ...

Do you know what I think about Hamas?

I think that Israeli and Hamas leaders ought to share jail cells. Like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ismail Haniyeh. Also Israeli snipers who shoot civilians and Hamas rocketeers. They deserve each other.

If you need more evidence what despicable animals Hamas is, check this out. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. Ie, using sick and wounded Palestinians as human shields. And you think these sides are even remotely equal in crime?

Wasn't one of them being treated in said hospital (or maybe that was the line from their former employer)? Also, the people dressed as staff in the image were IDF, not Hamas / whatever that other group is.

CCTV footage showed members of an undercover unit disguised as medics and other civilians making their way through a corridor with rifles raised.

Those three better have been pretty important to justify that type of attack.

 

[Copernicus]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

 

[DrZoidberg]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields. I think the blood of those civilians are on Hamas. If you see it any other way you're just letting yourself be manipulated, and will further encourage Hamas to behave like this.

 

[Copernicus]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields. I think the blood of those civilians are on Hamas. If you see it any other way you're just letting yourself be manipulated, and will further encourage Hamas to behave like this.

There are a lot of Israelis who take position (3), too, so perhaps it is you who is being manipulated. What you are saying here is that killing human shields is almost always permissible, which is exactly what contravenes international law. There are certain exceptions to the rules regarding "proportionality", but there is no carte blanche to simply bomb hospitals, crowded neighborhoods, and schools because they are suspected of harboring terrorists. Defenders of (1) typically fall back on the claim that all of those locations targeted by the IDF are all covered by the "military target" loophole. In other words, they feel they have an excuse to simply ignore the restriction on proportionality.

 

[laughing dog]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Hamas is going to act like it does no matter how many civilians get killed. Unless Hamas is completely wiped out, they will regroup and recruit and this cycle will continue.

At best, Israel is just postponing the next vicious terrorist attack with their own vicious attack. Except maybe next time, both sides will escalate the damage.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Bullshit. Stop trying to defend mass murders. Its despicable IMHO

Hamas is going to act like it does no matter how many civilians get killed. Unless Hamas is completely wiped out, they will regroup and recruit and this cycle will continue.

At best, Israel is just postponing the next vicious terrorist attack with their own vicious attack. Except maybe next time, both sides will escalate the damage.

I don’t think so. If Israel takes over defence of Gaza, Hamas can no longer divert tax money to weapons. Instead, perhaps, tax money can be used to build the economy. Something no Palestinian leaders have so far have had any interest in.

Israel is just defending itself. Hamas needs to go.

 

[laughing dog]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Bullshit. Stop trying to defend mass murders. Its despicable IMHO

I am not defending Hamas. Please produce a single sentence of mine that you imagine defends Hamas's terrorism.

Ironically, you defend mass killers (see you defense below). No matter how you try to spin it, the IDF is much more prolific in killing innocents than Hamas, and they are not even trying!

Hamas is going to act like it does no matter how many civilians get killed. Unless Hamas is completely wiped out, they will regroup and recruit and this cycle will continue.

At best, Israel is just postponing the next vicious terrorist attack with their own vicious attack. Except maybe next time, both sides will escalate the damage.

I don’t think so. If Israel takes over defence of Gaza, Hamas can no longer divert tax money to weapons. Instead, perhaps, tax money can be used to build the economy. Something no Palestinian leaders have so far have had any interest in.

Your analysis ignores over 70 years of history there. It is as naive as thinking Hamas or Zionist extremists will simply come together and sing Kumbayya.

Israel is just defending itself. Hamas needs to go.

Killing civilians is not defending oneself. If it were, Hamas's actions on Oct. 7 would not terrorism, but self defense.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Bullshit. Stop trying to defend mass murders. Its despicable IMHO

I am not defending Hamas. Please produce a single sentence of mine that you imagine defends Hamas's terrorism.

Ironically, you defend mass killers (see you defense below). No matter how you try to spin it, the IDF is much more prolific in killing innocents than Hamas, and they are not even trying!

Because you put the blame on the civilian casualities on IDF. That's why I think you are defending Hamas

Hamas is going to act like it does no matter how many civilians get killed. Unless Hamas is completely wiped out, they will regroup and recruit and this cycle will continue.

At best, Israel is just postponing the next vicious terrorist attack with their own vicious attack. Except maybe next time, both sides will escalate the damage.

I don’t think so. If Israel takes over defence of Gaza, Hamas can no longer divert tax money to weapons. Instead, perhaps, tax money can be used to build the economy. Something no Palestinian leaders have so far have had any interest in.

Your analysis ignores over 70 years of history there. It is as naive as thinking Hamas or Zionist extremists will simply come together and sing Kumbayya.

At least Zionist extremists aren't able to influence Israeli policy or actions by the IDF. That puts Israel well above the Palestinian Authority.

The main problem with PA is that its a failed state. Its dysfunction has been exploited by Islamists. And its not getting better with time. Something needs to change.
 

Israel is just defending itself. Hamas needs to go.

Killing civilians is not defending oneself. If it were, Hamas's actions on Oct. 7 would not terrorism, but self defense.

Hamas could stop using civilians as human shields. The IDF has never behaved in that way. Using hospitals as army staging posts is so low.

 

[lpetrich]

I think that Israeli and Hamas leaders ought to share jail cells. Like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ismail Haniyeh. Also Israeli snipers who shoot civilians and Hamas rocketeers. They deserve each other.

I think you're just being "there's two sides to every story" coward.

No I'm not. I'm pointing out the nature of those actions.

If you need more evidence what despicable animals Hamas is, check this out. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. Ie, using sick and wounded Palestinians as human shields. And you think these sides are even remotely equal in crime?

Share Message - Israeli forces kill three Palestinian militants in West Bank hospital raid

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid

CCTV captures undercover forces disguised as medics and nurses in the hospital with weapons raised.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's Israel that is acting like terrorist "human animals" here. What Israel ought to have done is get the Palestinian Authority to extradite them to Israel so that they can face trial for their alleged terrorist crimes. Israel has numerous Palestinians detained in its jails without specifying what they are supposed to be guilty of. They ought to face trial, and public trial with all the evidence exposed in full public view.

If Israel has such a super good case against them, then it will win nearly every case, and everybody will be able to see how justified Israel is in winning those cases. Acting as if it has something to hide won't do anything for it.

 

[lpetrich]

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Bullshit. Stop trying to defend mass murders. Its despicable IMHO

After you.

 

[lpetrich]

Hitler's Threats Against the Jews (1941-1945)
Adolf Hitler - Wikiquote
Speech to the Reichstag, 1939 Jan 30: "Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevizing of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

29 April 1945 - Adolf Hitler - Last Political Testament

In his bunker in Berlin, on April 29, 1945, Adolf Hitler decreed his "last political testament".

"Since 1914, when as a volunteer, I made my modest contribution in the World War which was forced upon the Reich, over thirty years have passed." - referring to the Great War, later renamed World War I. Overreacting to some terrorism is not exactly a forced response.

It is untrue that I or anybody else in Germany wanted war in 1939. It was desired and instigated exclusively by those international statesmen who were either of Jewish origin or working for Jewish interests. I have made so many offers for the reduction and elimination of armaments, which posterity cannot explain away for all eternity, that the responsibility for the outbreak of this war cannot rest on me. Furthermore, I never desired that after the first terrible World War a second war should arise against England or even against America. Centuries may pass, but out of the ruins of our cities and monuments of art there will arise anew the hatred for the people who alone are ultimately responsible: International Jewry and its helpers!

What a load of Stierscheisse.

But I left no doubt about the fact that if the peoples of Europe were again only regarded as so many packages of stock shares by these international money and finance conspirators, then that race, too, which is the truly guilty party in this murderous struggle would also have to be held to account: the Jews!

More and more. He ended with

Above all, I charge the leadership of the nation and their followers with the strict observance of the racial laws and with merciless resistance against the universal poisoners of all peoples, international Jewry.

The next day he committed suicide.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems that there are three basic positions in this debate:

1) Israel is justified in killing innocent Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
2) Hamas is justified in killing innocent Israelis to destroy Israel.
3) Neither Hamas nor Israel is justified in killing innocent people to destroy the other.

Nobody here is defending (2). Some defend (1) and others defend (3). Those who defend (1) often portray the defenders of (3) as defenders of (2).

I don’t think anyone has defended 1 either. Innocent Palestinians are getting killed because Hamas is on purpose using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That is a falsehood. Innocent Palenstinians are getting killed because the IDF is bombing and shooting them. The fact you feel the IDF is justified does not change the reality that innocent Palestinians are directly killed because of IDF choices and actions.

The persistent elision over over that reality by the defenders strongly suggests that the IDF is justified in killing innocent civilians.

Bullshit. Stop trying to defend mass murders. Its despicable IMHO

Why are you continually demeaning people who you are opposed to in this thread?

Hamas is going to act like it does no matter how many civilians get killed. Unless Hamas is completely wiped out, they will regroup and recruit and this cycle will continue.

At best, Israel is just postponing the next vicious terrorist attack with their own vicious attack. Except maybe next time, both sides will escalate the damage.

I don’t think so. If Israel takes over defence of Gaza, Hamas can no longer divert tax money to weapons. Instead, perhaps, tax money can be used to build the economy. Something no Palestinian leaders have so far have had any interest in.

Israel is just defending itself. Hamas needs to go.

How does Israel providing defense of Gaza make Hamas disappear? The idea that an Israeli presence makes it impossible for Hamas to adapt is just really naïve. Terrorists always adapt.

Additionally, Israel has said nothing about providing the defense in Gaza, but instead having military dominion in Gaza, ie, they go as they please, but they aren't the police.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Hamas could stop using civilians as human shields. The IDF has never behaved in that way. Using hospitals as army staging posts is so low.

is the IDF obligated to shoot through human shields? You seem to imply that the killing of human shields is justified.

They are innocent civilians by definition of “human shields” otherwise you would refer to them as “combatants”.

on the scale of turn the other cheek to carpet bomb Gaza, there is a line somewhere for acceptable response. It seems different people have different opinions on where to draw that line, including Israelis and their government.

I certainly can’t tell you a good way to fully eradicate Hamas without killing their human shields, but then again I am no expert in war, politics or fighting terrorism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hamas could stop using civilians as human shields. The IDF has never behaved in that way. Using hospitals as army staging posts is so low.

is the IDF obligated to shoot through human shields? You seem to imply that the killing of human shields is justified.

What? What kind of fucked up logic is that?

They are innocent civilians by definition of “human shields” otherwise you would refer to them as “combatants”.

Hamas certainly does their best to make their fighters look like civilians. Something the International press rarely mention. The result is of course that civilians are sometimes targetted by mistake, and that all civilians (of fightable age) have to be treated as potential combatants.

on the scale of turn the other cheek to carpet bomb Gaza, there is a line somewhere for acceptable response. It seems different people have different opinions on where to draw that line, including Israelis and their government.

I certainly can’t tell you a good way to fully eradicate Hamas without killing their human shields, but then again I am no expert in war, politics or fighting terrorism.

The IDF are not going to crawl through the maze of tunnels Hammas has built all over Gaza. That would be suicide. This was all along Hamas' not-so-secret plan. To provoke Israel to respond and then kill them in the tunnels. Hamas has prepared for this for 20 years. Israeli intelligence obviously know everything there is to know about the tunnels.

Anyone who has allowed Hamas to build a tunnel under their house, I think, has made their house a legitimate military target. Which is most of Gaza. I have no problem with Israel bombing. I think it probably is the only viable solution. They’re also pumping sea water into the tunnels to flood them.