Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Then what's your plan? You seem to think peace is possible. How do you propose it can be acheived?

Right now, peace is not possible because there is too much distrust, fear, and hate. Peace is going to take a very long because it requires trust and real courage. Real courage is not terrorism ir killing civilians by yhe thousands, it is turning the other cheek when necessary which, in turn, requires trust.[

You want Israel to turn the other cheek but what of Hamas? Are they to turn the other cheek too?

If they do that they'll stop getting money from Iran. They wouldn't want that. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people. They care about the money. The main problem in this conflict that is that the Palestinian side is led by people who don't have the best interest of the Palestinian people at heart. And since the Palestinians are very supportive of Hamas, there doesn't seem to be any possibility to fix this.

Islamic Jihad (also Funded by Iran) are Islamist fanatics. The second most popular group among Palestinians. And the Palestinian Authority, who are in nominal control, are kleptocratic bandits who only care about getting rich. They also don't give a fuck about the Palestinian people.

So the main problem for the individual Palestinians is that there is no viable horse to back if they want peace. A Palestine average Joe who wants a job and wants to be able to raise a family, needs to ally himself to one of these parasitic organisations to be able to just survive. That guarantees continued conflict.

It is funny how you keep switching back and forth between "Palestinians are very supporting of Hamas" (it is their fault!) and Palestinians have "no viable horse to back if they want peace" (they have no control). Admittedly, it is hard to parse just how Palestinians stand on this as they aren't provided much of anything to express and emote. But your post just feels so weaselly to justify whatever point you are making at the second.

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

I'm pretty much of the mindset that there simply is no solution. Hamas' attack on October 7th was a bridge to peace being lit on fire. Hamas wasn't particularly trustworthy to begin with, but now they can be trusted to never accept peace. Peace also can't be had without Iran's approval. And Iran doesn't want it. Discord is very good for them for partisan reasons.

Israel could drop no more bombs and there will be no peace. Israel can drop millions more bombs and there will be no peace. Giving the Palestinians their state, probably doesn't end in peace either, but it would at least provide an opening for it, but it would have to include the exclusion of Hamas. And without Saudi support for it, that isn't happening.

 

[TomC]

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

You'd think that some of the gazillions of people clutching their pearls over the suffering of Gazans some multi national task force could be organized that includes Israelis.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

 

[TomC]

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel.

Which is fomenting peace.
And they know it.
That will require neutralizing Islamic terrorists like Hamas. Gazans and the international community have shown no interest in that. That's why Israel is stuck bombing Gaza.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

And it isn't just about which side turns the other cheek. Violence is self-perpetuating, so one side has to stop first.

If Palestinians were to stop their attacks, Israel would have no reason to retaliate in self-defense.
If Israel were to stop defending itself, Hamas and other terrorist groups would continue attacking because their goal is destruction of Israel. They have said so themselves.
Let's stop pretending the two sides in this conflict are in any way equivalent.

I agree. Hamas is a terrorist organization that Israel allowed to rule over the Gaza Strip for years. Israel is a government that claims to abide by international law. Israel's defense forces are vastly superior to Hamas, and they essentially control the entire Gaza Strip, especially the humanitarian aid that ordinary Gazans depend on to survive. Israel has destroyed the lives of far more innocent people, roughly half of the casualties being children. Let's stop pretending that the two sides are in any way equivalent.

The US can tell Israel to turn the other cheek, and Israel has to listen.

It would be absolutely wrong to demand Israel "turn the other cheek" after >1000 Israelis were brutally murdered and >200 kidnapped by Islamic fanatics of Hamas. You would not be demanding that kind of mindless self-sacrifice of any other country or people.
Should Ukrainians "turn the other cheek" in face of Russian aggression?

"Turning the other cheek" an inappropriate metaphor for what is actually required here--that Israel show restraint and stop killing so many non-combatants. The noteworthy point in your response above is that you make zero mention of the numbers of Palestinians killed or held in Israeli prisons without trial. The civilian population of the Gaza Strip has suffered far worse than Israel did in the October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas, but you totally ignore that fact. As for bringing Ukraine into this, that's you once again trying to treat the two sides as equivalent. Let's stop pretending that there is some kind of symmetry and proportionality here.

The reason Biden is in trouble with his base of support

By "base" you mean the left wing radicals and the Arabs/Muslims mostly in Michigan?

No, I mean that a large portion of his base sees the Israeli reaction to October 7 as unnecessarily brutal and inhumane. Biden has not done nearly enough to get Israel to show restraint. It is also true that many Israelis share that perception. The Likud government in Israel is extremely unpopular now, and there are demonstrations by people who want to prioritize getting the hostages back over playing whack-a-mole with Hamas and killing large numbers of innocent people while doing so.

is that he refuses to reign in Israel's bloody revenge on the Palestinian population living in Gaza.

The problem is that the pro-Palestinian leftists and the Islamic groups do not want Israel to defend itself at all. There was a rally cheering Palestinian "resistance" a day after the bloody terrorist attack by Hamas.
...
This is the "base" that you think Biden should kowtow to.
Note, there was a ceasefire on 10/6, and Hamas broke it.

This is February 2024, not October 2023. It's long past the time to reduce the level of retaliation and attend to the needs of the civilian population in Gaza. You act as if the only opposition to what Israel is doing is from extremists who support Hamas--an obvious and blatant distortion of reality. Israel has been roundly condemned for its behavior around the world, not just by pro-Palestinian leftists and Islamic groups.

To do so would have a negative impact on his chances of getting reelected.

If he had acquiesced to the demand by the Israel haters he would not deserve to get reelected.

That is certainly one extreme perspective on his problem. Biden is trying to hold a very diverse political coalition together in an election year, and the progressive wing of his party are very unhappy with his failure to get Israel to stop making the violence worse in the Middle East. The last thing we need is to get pulled into a war there, and we are on the brink of doing that.

 

[laughing dog]

I would add that the IDF is no longer engaging in the defense of Israel. There is no danger of an immediate attack from Gaza. Continued bombing and killing at this point has little or nothing to do with defense and everything to do with revenge.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel.

Which is fomenting peace.
And they know it.

Who is they? Netanyahu wouldn't give a fuck. Some other leader could.

That will require neutralizing Islamic terrorists like Hamas. Gazans and the international community have shown no interest in that.

Peace isn't possible because radicals in Israel want Gaza, radicals in Iran want strife. Radicals are in power in both nations. Hamas is close to a red herring. An ironic foil used by Netanyahu and Iran to justify what shit they want.

That's why Israel is stuck bombing Gaza.

Netanyahu is stuck bombing Gaza because his dictatorship attempt blinded him to a massive attack. What are they even bombing these days?

 

[lpetrich]

Biden issues order targeting Israeli settlers who attack West Bank Palestinians : NPR

President Biden issued an executive order on Thursday targeting Israeli settlers in the West Bank who have been attacking Palestinians in the occupied territory.

The order named four people and will lay the groundwork for financial sanctions against settlers who carry out violent assaults, which have increased since Hamas launched an attack on Israel three months ago, triggering a full-scale war in Gaza.

The order will not target U.S. citizens, who make up a significant number of the settler community. The Biden administration had issued an order late last year imposing travel bans on Israeli settlers who had attacked Palestinians.

Better late than never.

 

[lpetrich]

 International recognition of the State of Palestine - partial

Top UK diplomat says Britain could recognize Palestinian state | AP News

Foreign Secretary David Cameron, speaking to The Associated Press during a visit Thursday to Lebanon intended to tamp down regional tensions, said no recognition could come while Hamas remained in Gaza, but that it could take place while Israeli negotiations with Palestinian leaders were continuing.

U.K. recognition of an independent state of Palestine, including in the United Nations, “can’t come at the start of the process, but it doesn’t have to be the very end of the process,” said Cameron, a former British prime minister.

State Department reviewing options for recognition of Palestinian state

For decades, U.S. policy has been to oppose the recognition of Palestine as a state both bilaterally and in UN institutions and to stress Palestinian statehood should only be achieved through direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

But that is changing.

The Biden administration is linking possible normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia to the creation of a pathway for the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of its post-war strategy.

...
Saudi officials have publicly and privately made clear since Oct. 7 that any potential normalization agreement with Israel would be conditioned on the creation of an "irrevocable" pathway toward a Palestinian state.

Some inside the Biden administration are now thinking recognition of a Palestinian state should possibly be the first step in negotiations to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict instead of the last, the senior U.S. official said.

Options:

• Bilaterally recognizing the state of Palestine.
• Not using its veto to block the UN Security Council from admitting Palestine as a full UN member state.
• Encouraging other countries to recognize Palestine.

They also considered what a demilitarized Palestinian state might be like.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

The Palestinians are home. Where are they supposed to go?

Any Muslim majority country is Hellbent on destroying Israel. So that’s not an option.

 

[Harry Bosch]

 International recognition of the State of Palestine - partial

Top UK diplomat says Britain could recognize Palestinian state | AP News

Foreign Secretary David Cameron, speaking to The Associated Press during a visit Thursday to Lebanon intended to tamp down regional tensions, said no recognition could come while Hamas remained in Gaza, but that it could take place while Israeli negotiations with Palestinian leaders were continuing.

U.K. recognition of an independent state of Palestine, including in the United Nations, “can’t come at the start of the process, but it doesn’t have to be the very end of the process,” said Cameron, a former British prime minister.

State Department reviewing options for recognition of Palestinian state

For decades, U.S. policy has been to oppose the recognition of Palestine as a state both bilaterally and in UN institutions and to stress Palestinian statehood should only be achieved through direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

But that is changing.

The Biden administration is linking possible normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia to the creation of a pathway for the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of its post-war strategy.

...
Saudi officials have publicly and privately made clear since Oct. 7 that any potential normalization agreement with Israel would be conditioned on the creation of an "irrevocable" pathway toward a Palestinian state.

Some inside the Biden administration are now thinking recognition of a Palestinian state should possibly be the first step in negotiations to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict instead of the last, the senior U.S. official said.

Options:

• Bilaterally recognizing the state of Palestine.
• Not using its veto to block the UN Security Council from admitting Palestine as a full UN member state.
• Encouraging other countries to recognize Palestine.

They also considered what a demilitarized Palestinian state might be like.

You are assuming that the Palestinians want a state for their own?

 

[Arctish]

 International recognition of the State of Palestine - partial

Top UK diplomat says Britain could recognize Palestinian state | AP News

Foreign Secretary David Cameron, speaking to The Associated Press during a visit Thursday to Lebanon intended to tamp down regional tensions, said no recognition could come while Hamas remained in Gaza, but that it could take place while Israeli negotiations with Palestinian leaders were continuing.

U.K. recognition of an independent state of Palestine, including in the United Nations, “can’t come at the start of the process, but it doesn’t have to be the very end of the process,” said Cameron, a former British prime minister.

State Department reviewing options for recognition of Palestinian state

For decades, U.S. policy has been to oppose the recognition of Palestine as a state both bilaterally and in UN institutions and to stress Palestinian statehood should only be achieved through direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

But that is changing.

The Biden administration is linking possible normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia to the creation of a pathway for the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of its post-war strategy.

...
Saudi officials have publicly and privately made clear since Oct. 7 that any potential normalization agreement with Israel would be conditioned on the creation of an "irrevocable" pathway toward a Palestinian state.

Some inside the Biden administration are now thinking recognition of a Palestinian state should possibly be the first step in negotiations to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict instead of the last, the senior U.S. official said.

Options:

• Bilaterally recognizing the state of Palestine.
• Not using its veto to block the UN Security Council from admitting Palestine as a full UN member state.
• Encouraging other countries to recognize Palestine.

They also considered what a demilitarized Palestinian state might be like.

You are assuming that the Palestinians want a state for their own?

It's a reasonable assumption considering how much effort they've been putting into getting one.

 

[Copernicus]

Several people here have been trying to portray the opposition to Israel's conduct as "pro-Palestinian" extremists who favor Hamas. However, this AP/Norc poll reveals that about half of the American public believes that:

Half believe Israel’s military response in Gaza has gone too far​

The poll also shows that a large majority of the Democrats are of that opinion, underscoring the problem that Biden faces in an election year.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Several people here have been trying to portray the opposition to Israel's conduct as "pro-Palestinian" extremists who favor Hamas. However, this AP/Norc poll reveals that about half of the American public believes that:

Half believe Israel’s military response in Gaza has gone too far​

The poll also shows that a large majority of the Democrats are of that opinion, underscoring the problem that Biden faces in an election year.

Well, that's not surprising to me. Biden believes that Israel has gone a little too far.

 

[Copernicus]

Several people here have been trying to portray the opposition to Israel's conduct as "pro-Palestinian" extremists who favor Hamas. However, this AP/Norc poll reveals that about half of the American public believes that:

Half believe Israel’s military response in Gaza has gone too far​

The poll also shows that a large majority of the Democrats are of that opinion, underscoring the problem that Biden faces in an election year.

Well, that's not surprising to me. Biden believes that Israel has gone a little too far.

Right. His problem is that he is in a position to do something about it, and he hasn't made a dent in getting Israel to show more restraint. Quite the opposite, in fact. And now we are risking an even wider expansion of the war in that region because of our military retaliation against the Iran-linked attack on our base in Jordan. It isn't clear whether more chaos will help or hurt him.

 

[laughing dog]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

The Palestinians are home. Where are they supposed to go?

Any Muslim majority country is Hellbent on destroying Israel. So that’s not an option.

Oman is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Indonesia is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Neither is Bangladesh, Azerbejan or Brunei. That is just a sample of Muslim majority countries.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Several people here have been trying to portray the opposition to Israel's conduct as "pro-Palestinian" extremists who favor Hamas. However, this AP/Norc poll reveals that about half of the American public believes that:

Half believe Israel’s military response in Gaza has gone too far​

The poll also shows that a large majority of the Democrats are of that opinion, underscoring the problem that Biden faces in an election year.

Well, that's not surprising to me. Biden believes that Israel has gone a little too far.

Israel was given a blank check... and it expired a month plus ago.

 

[Arctish]

Several people here have been trying to portray the opposition to Israel's conduct as "pro-Palestinian" extremists who favor Hamas. However, this AP/Norc poll reveals that about half of the American public believes that:

Half believe Israel’s military response in Gaza has gone too far​

The poll also shows that a large majority of the Democrats are of that opinion, underscoring the problem that Biden faces in an election year.

Well, that's not surprising to me. Biden believes that Israel has gone a little too far.

Israel was given a blank check... and it expired a month plus ago.

I think it's analogous to George W Bush getting a blank check after the terrorist attacks on 9/11 and using it to invade Iraq along with Afghanistan. He saw an opportunity to do something he had wanted to do all along and jumped on it.

Netanyahu and the hardcore right wingers who support him want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and hand it over to Jewish Zionist settlers. The October attack in Israel was their opportunity to murder and smash their way toward achieving that goal.