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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Explain, then, why many chunks of the wall are built to block small arms fire, not merely people.

Explain why it's ok for those walls to be built on land that doesn't belong to Israel? Don't bother, I know your answer. Hamas.
1) Whataboutism is basically admitting the claim.

2) The area I'm talking about is facing the West Bank, not Gaza. It's not about Hamas!

And explain why Egypt was even more aggressive about wall-building.

The purpose of their wall is to block operatives from groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda from entering Egypt. Irrespective of how effective it may or may not be, its situated on the Egyptian side of the border. ;)
Once again, you are ignoring the important part.

And Israel doesn't block commerce in peaceful goods across the border. Military goods are not permitted, dual use stuff only with regulation that obviously proved inadequate so I expect it to get a lot stricter.

Imagine if China, or even Russia, had the power to dictate what enters the U.S. – it's unlikely you'd be comfortable with any nation exerting as much influence over American imports as Israel does over goods entering Gaza. This control is a significant issue. But but but Hamas, right?!
Once again, you're not addressing the issue.
 
Let me ask this.
Netanyahu's polling numbers are in the toilet, as far as I know. He's almost certainly going to be replaced in the next election.

Which do you think is more likely to replace him? A peacenik accomodationist, or a more effective war monger?

Supposing it's a more hardened military dude, maybe an IDF general or something, could we all agree that Hamas helped elect an IDF general?
Tom

His popularity has significantly declined in the polls, because the Israeli population has better discernment than stupid American's that have been trained to dogmatically support everything the Israeli government does.
His popularity is in the trash because he's not hawkish enough to keep the Israelis safe.
 
And some people choose to overlook the fact that Hamas targets civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, because it helps them sleep at night.
Tom

Well golly gee. I wonder who those people are? You don't even have to leave IIDB to find them. Kindly do a search for a post that supports your claim sir.
We don't know that it's to help them sleep better but why else would people blame Israel for the massacre?
 
And some people choose to overlook the fact that Hamas targets civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, because it helps them sleep at night.
Tom

Well golly gee. I wonder who those people are? You don't even have to leave IIDB to find them. Kindly do a search for a post that supports your claim sir.
We don't know that it's to help them sleep better but why else would people blame Israel for the massacre?
So only poor people are responsible for their choices?
 
The Israeli Jews seem capable of this kind of pragmatism. The Muslims seem unable to.

That's quite surprising. Given that Jordan is a Muslim nation, with a significant Palestinian population as well, and has a peaceful relationship with Israel. :rolleyes:

Edit: Egypt is a Muslim country btw.
They aren't being paid for terror.
 
Granted, but if you've been closely following the situation, it's clear that Israel has continuously engaged in actions against the Palestinians, not allowing enough respite for forgiveness.
It's also clear that near all the Israeli actions are a response to a violent assault by Islamic people. It's the Islamic terrorists who refuse to allow enough respite for forgiveness.
Tom
There isn't even any need for Israeli forgiveness. Stop poking them, they'll stop poking back.

Note that it often doesn't look that way--because the news rarely reports the terrorist pokes at Israel. They only get passing mention when Israel finally shoots back.
 

That is incorrect. Most of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Balfour Declaration were descendants of the ancient Canaanites. The DNA evidence is compelling and substantial. There's also anecdotal evidence.

About 10 years ago I came across an article from the Jerusalem Post about an amateur historian who was researching the Jewish Palestinian connection. His findings indicate that at the time of the founding of the State of Israel approx. 60% of Palestinians had Jewish grandmothers or great-grandmothers on their mother's side. He also found evidence the 'Arabs' of the Negev were descendants of Jews who were converted at gunpoint by the Mamluks. He believed that was the reason why their embrace of Islam was tepid at best. I'll see if I can find that article again.
That would be a good article to look at. The figures would not surprise me.

I would like a one state solution to work but the hatred is too strong. A two state would be best but the issues with that might be intractable too.
 
Moving forward, another strategy for Israel, following their ineffective approach with Hamas, could be to reconsider the idea of Jordan assuming control over the West Bank, this time including the Gaza Strip in the arrangement. Jordan has historically maintained relative peace at the holy sites, allowing both Christian and Muslim for the most part safe access to Jerusalem. Perhaps this model could be extended to manage the West Bank and Gaza, benefiting Palestinians and Israel as a whole. For this to happen, Israel would need to cease its settlement activities.
And you think Jordan would want that???

And "settlement activities" is propaganda. When Israel built their wall that was a de-facto freeze of any expansion.
 
Moving forward, another strategy for Israel, following their ineffective approach with Hamas, could be to reconsider the idea of Jordan assuming control over the West Bank, this time including the Gaza Strip in the arrangement. Jordan has historically maintained relative peace at the holy sites, allowing both Christian and Muslim for the most part safe access to Jerusalem. Perhaps this model could be extended to manage the West Bank and Gaza, benefiting Palestinians and Israel as a whole. For this to happen, Israel would need to cease its settlement activities.
And you think Jordan would want that???

And "settlement activities" is propaganda. When Israel built their wall that was a de-facto freeze of any expansion.
Somehow the settlers in the West Bank or Netanahyu didn’t get that memo.
 
First of all, you just gave us the Hollywood screenplay version of events, not the actual history. But let's take it at face value for now.

How about, instead of rewarding robbers by letting them keep all the stuff they stole, the robbers have to give the stolen stuff back and make restitution for the harm they did.

That sounds fair, right?

See, that way, the assholes who made <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> homeless and destitute don't benefit from their assholery any longer than they already have. They have to at least try to make amends. Justice might never be fully served but at least the victims of injustice get something resembling it. ...
:consternation1:
Okay, let me see if I've got this straight. Israelis in general are robbers and assholes who stole stuff and did harm and made some other ethnic group homeless and destitute. And you deduced this from them being born into a country founded by some particular Israelis who were robbers and assholes and are long dead. Do I have that right?
...
It appears that I haven't been wordy enough.

Armed militant Zionists who murdered people and stole their stuff are robbers and assholes. People who received that obviously stolen property weren't necessarily robbers but may have been complicit in the robbery. They may have lionized the assholes, and sanitized and mythologized the campaign of murder and terrorism into a story they could tell their children without shame.
That's really what you're going with, is it? Lionizing, sanitizing and mythologizing makes people complicit in crimes that happened long before they were born? So then pretty much the entire Mongolian population is complicit in the crimes of Genghis Khan? And pretty much the entire Palestinian population is complicit in the crimes* of a hundred years of Palestinian terrorists? No, it doesn't work that way. People do not become magically complicit in crimes before they were born no matter how much patriotic bull they got spoon fed growing up.

(* Or is this another of those asymmetrical apologetics where Palestinian crimes are always Israelis' fault for provoking them but Israeli crimes are never Palestinians' fault for provoking them?)

They may have been assholes themselves but they might also have been victims of other murderous assholes and robbers. They might have been desperate for shelter and sympathetic to others who had similarly suffered. They might have willingly given the houses back to the other victims if it had been possible for them to do so. Not everyone who received stolen property was happy about how it came to be theirs. They should not be conflated with people who think "might makes right" and "to the biggest murderous assholes go the spoils".
Right. People should not be conflated with people who aren't them. The robbers already got rewarded and now they're dead so no redistribution now or ever is going to change how rewarded they were or make them give back any stolen stuff. Therefore...

That means when you wrote:

"How about, instead of rewarding robbers by letting them keep all the stuff they stole, the robbers have to give the stolen stuff back and make restitution for the harm they did. That sounds fair, right?"​

the policy you were actually advocating would more accurately have been written up like this:

"How about, instead of rewarding non-robbers by leaving them alone, the non-robbers have to give away the stolen stuff to the descendants of people who were driven off before the non-robbers were even born and make restitution for the harm they didn't do. That sounds fair, right?".​

Right, that sounds fair. So your argument implies it was fair for the Palestinians to have to give their land away in 1948 to the descendants of its earlier owners, driven off into the Jewish Diaspora before the Palestinians were even born. Thank goodness that's all finally settled. She little thinks how eloquently she has pleaded her rival's cause!

If you need me to be more wordy and talk about the differences between militant murderous Zionists, passive philosophical Zionists, Muslim Israelis, Arab Jews, and other communities of people in Israel and Palestine, or if you need me to devise a system of timestamps to make it less confusing when history is brought into a discussion of current events, I might give it a go later tonight.
I don't need you to be more wordy or re-timestamp history. What I need from you are thoughtful answers to cross-examination questions, and an end to libeling your outgroup as "assholes who made <insert racial/ethnic/religious designation here> homeless and destitute", and for you to judge everyone's moral obligations by the same standard regardless of their ethnicity.
 
How about your thoughts? Do you have any suggestions instead of simply opposing others' ideas without offering a solid argument as to why they wouldn't be effective?
The problem will continue so long as the money for terror continues.
 
The executive order itself: Federal Register :: Imposing Certain Sanctions on Persons Undermining Peace, Security, and Stability in the West Bank
West Bank: Biden sanctions Israeli settlers accused of attacking Palestinians | AP News
President Joe Biden on Thursday issued an executive order that targets Israeli settlers in the West Bank who have been accused of attacking Palestinians and Israeli peace activists in the occupied territory, imposing financial sanctions and visa bans in an initial round against four individuals.

Those settlers were involved in acts of violence, as well as threats and attempts to destroy or seize Palestinian property, according to the order. The penalties aim to block the four from using the U.S. financial system and bar American citizens from dealing with them. U.S. officials said they were evaluating whether to punish others involved in attacks that have intensified during the Israel-Hamas war.
Biden issues order targeting Israeli settlers who attack West Bank Palestinians : NPR
The order named four people and will lay the groundwork for financial sanctions against settlers who carry out violent assaults, which have increased since Hamas launched an attack on Israel three months ago, triggering a full-scale war in Gaza.

The order will not target U.S. citizens, who make up a significant number of the settler community. The Biden administration had issued an order late last year imposing travel bans on Israeli settlers who had attacked Palestinians.

While only four people are named, the order marks the first time that the U.S. has targeted Israeli settlers with the threat of frozen assets and bank accounts in an attempt to rein in settler attacks on Palestinians living in the West Bank, which Palestinians see as the central plank of a future Palestinian state.

"This violence poses a grave threat to peace, security, and stability in the West Bank, Israel, and the Middle East region, and threatens the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States," White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan said in a statement.
Finally the Biden Admin showing that it's something other than Benjamin Netanyahu's toy poodle. Not much, but it's a start.
 
You don’t need to spend a lot of time there to get the vibe. Plenty of street vendors in Cairo sell Mein Kampf along side with the Islamic works.

In 2021, a French publisher reissued Mein Kampf. In 2016, Mein Kampf was a best seller in Germany. Are France and Germany “hellbent on the destruction of Israel”?

Just stop. You trying to sweep Islamic antisemitism under the rug is distastfull.

People in the middle East have little historical reasons to care about Nazism. It was a squabble between their colonial overlords. If they read it its because of its antisemitic content.
Stop shifting the goal posts. I have not denied anti-semitism in the least. You are the one who brought up sales of Mein Kampf as an indication of rampant anti-semitism. Using your standard, then Germany and France are rampantly anti-semitic.

Lol. While your goal posts are on wheels.

DrZoidberg said:
You are living in a fantasy world.
I suppose it is a fantasy world to expect you to actually provide evidence to support your claim about how any Muslim majority country is hellbent on the destruction of Israel.

DrZoidberg said:
The good news is that Islam is mostly just posturing and empty talk. Muslims are extremely bad at going through with their threats. Its just that there's a billion of them. So it's still a problem
You are rebutting your own claim about any Muslim majority country being hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

I don’t think I do.
No, you don't feel that you do. Empty talk is not evidence of "hell bent on destroying Israel". Empty threats are just that - empty. Anyone who is hellbent on doing something, actually ACTS.

Politics is the art of the possible. It doesn't matter how much you want something, if you know that acting for it will fail, or cost more than it's worth. The countries around Israel are playing nice because being friends with USA is valuable. Iran is an example of a country on USA's naughty list. So they are free to act as they see fit.

I think you are naive.

As an aside, well adjusted people do not prattle "crazy antisemitic stuff". Nor do they go prattle crazy Islamphobic stuff.

The most Islamophobic people I know grew up in the middle East. There's little that can create a more searing hatred of Islam than growing up in an Islamic country.

It is true that my Jewish ex wife has searing hatred of Judaism (after living in Israel). But her hatred is based on theology rather than Israeli policy. She hates all religion equally. But it's certainly not common among expat Israeli Jews. They tend to be fond of Judaism. Jews in general seems to like Judaism even when they're atheists. The fact that Judaism is so accommodating and inclusive of atheistic Jews should tell you everything you need to know on the qualitative differences between Islam and Judaism
I have no idea what brought on that prattle except another shifting of the goal post.

But you keep doing you and slandering millions of Muslims with your bigoted nonsense.

It's not slander if it's true.

I think it was Gospel who did the postmodern trick of replacing my use of the word "Muslim" with "Jew" and implied by it that I was a racist. As wokes so often do, to prove a point. But modern Judaism and modern Islam are very different. You can't treat them as the same religion. A Jewish extremist is less of a problem than a Muslim extremist. Jewish extremists are a nuisance. Muslim extremists are dangerous.
 

That is incorrect. Most of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Balfour Declaration were descendants of the ancient Canaanites. The DNA evidence is compelling and substantial. There's also anecdotal evidence.

About 10 years ago I came across an article from the Jerusalem Post about an amateur historian who was researching the Jewish Palestinian connection. His findings indicate that at the time of the founding of the State of Israel approx. 60% of Palestinians had Jewish grandmothers or great-grandmothers on their mother's side. He also found evidence the 'Arabs' of the Negev were descendants of Jews who were converted at gunpoint by the Mamluks. He believed that was the reason why their embrace of Islam was tepid at best. I'll see if I can find that article again.
That would be a good article to look at. The figures would not surprise me.

I would like a one state solution to work but the hatred is too strong. A two state would be best but the issues with that might be intractable too.
Found it. There may have been another article I posted around that time that had the 60% figure. This one cites higher numbers:

The Lost Palestinian Jews
 
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