Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

The Palestinians are home. Where are they supposed to go?

Any Muslim majority country is Hellbent on destroying Israel. So that’s not an option.

Oman is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Indonesia is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Neither is Bangladesh, Azerbejan or Brunei. That is just a sample of Muslim majority countries.

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

Just because a countries leader isn’t actively attacking Israel doesn’t mean its rhetoric isn't anti-Israel. Because they have to be, because Muslims I'm general is very anti-Israel. Their people would get annoyed

 

[Arctish]

It's interesting how all European immigrants have to do is say "this is our country now" and people accept their claim to lands outside Europe without a quibble, while indigenous people say "this is our country" about the land where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years and the same folks pretend to be stone deaf.

What made the European Zionist claim that Israel existed stronger than the Palestinian claim that it didn't? The Palestinians outnumbered the Europeans by a 3-1 margin, and as the indigenous people of the region had a much stronger claim to the land than the new arrivals.

 

[laughing dog]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

The Palestinians are home. Where are they supposed to go?

Any Muslim majority country is Hellbent on destroying Israel. So that’s not an option.

Oman is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Indonesia is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Neither is Bangladesh, Azerbejan or Brunei. That is just a sample of Muslim majority countries.

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

Just because a countries leader isn’t actively attacking Israel doesn’t mean its rhetoric isn't anti-Israel. Because they have to be, because Muslims I'm general is very anti-Israel. Their people would get annoyed

You think wrong. Israel was founded over 70 years ago. Egypt has been at peace with Israel for years . They co- operate on some issues.

If a country was “hell bent” on destroying Israel, there would be massive visible evidence of such a desire. I mentioned 5 majority Muslim countries (a small sample). You should easily be able to produce tangible evidence to support your assertion for at least one (although your hand waved belief requires evidence for 5).

Being anti-Israel does not necessarily mean wanting its destruction, let alone being hell bent on its destruction.

 

[bilby]

...Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel....

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

By that reasoning, Germany is hellbent on the destruction of Poland and Belgium.

Do you think that's really the case?

 

[TomC]

...Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel....

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

By that reasoning, Germany is hellbent on the destruction of Poland and Belgium.

Do you think that's really the case?

Germany has changed radically since they invaded Poland. I do not see a similar radical shift in Egypt.

I don't think the Egyptian government is hell bent on destroying Israel anymore. They've gotten their butts kicked enough. I'm not sure that's true of Egyptians as a whole.

Nevertheless, I'd definitely prefer Egyptian military forces were heavily involved in an international peace keeping contingent in Gaza. Not just them, but a leading role.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

...Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel....

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

By that reasoning, Germany is hellbent on the destruction of Poland and Belgium.

Do you think that's really the case?

Germany has changed radically since they invaded Poland. I do not see a similar radical shift in Egypt.

I don't think the Egyptian government is hell bent on destroying Israel anymore. They've gotten their butts kicked enough. I'm not sure that's true of Egyptians as a whole.

Nevertheless, I'd definitely prefer Egyptian military forces were heavily involved in an international peace keeping contingent in Gaza. Not just them, but a leading role.
Tom

After the Egyptian revolution, led by the liberal middle-class of Cairo, there was an election. The people, overwhelmingly voted for the Muslim Brotherhood. It turned out that the Egyptian population at large are fantatical Islamists. This is a common feature of Muslim majority countries.

Then that same liberal middle-class who ousted Mubarak, begged Al Sisi to use the army and take over, to make it go back to how it was under Mubarak. And that’s what we got now.

The government of Egypt understands that attacking Israel is unwise. Egypt has a tourist economy. Turists are easily spooked. But the people of Egypt clearly have extremely strong opinion about spreading Islamofascism over the world.

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad, (the second biggest organisation in Gaza and the West bank) are Muslim Brotherhood, and as such part of the same organisation as that which was voted into power.

Islamism was once born in Egypt (Sayyid Qutb). Its extremely strong there. I recommend Karen Armstrong's "The Battle for God". The movements that became Al Qaeda and ISIS both come from Egypt. Even the idea of Islsm as the main unifying force against western oppression and colonialism was born in Egypt (in the 1870's).

Islam didn't used to be like this. Like all religion it morphs and changes depending on the the context.

The problem with the main identity of Islam as seen as a reactionary force against westernism is that (just like all fascism and utopian movements) there's no need to ever self reflect and think about how you can be a better person. You can blame all your problems on an external force. That's where modern Islam seems to be stuck. The Islamic countries have had self rule for almost a century now. They still just blame the West for all their problems. While unable to manage runaway corruption.

In the Egyptian election the people of Egypt was certainly clear on that the solution to all their problems was to have more Islam.

So basically, the Egyptian government aren't hellbent on destroying Israel, but its people are. There's no way the Egyptian government could afford to be pro-Israel or even defending Israels right to exist. If they did that it'd be another revolution in no time

 

[DrZoidberg]

As I see it, the only possible option is for an external party to come in and take over. Israel is a well functioning modern democratic state. They're the ideal party to do this. Whatever external force moves in, they're going to be resented by the Palestinians.

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't think it suitable for Israel to do that. Participate, but not lead it.

I wouldn't really even trust them. Not only would it exacerbate the tension But there are definitely Israelis who are nuts, violent extremists.
Tom

Who else is going to do it? Israel at least have an incentive to treat them well

No they don't. Israel would have the incentive to do whatever they felt was best for Israel. No one will trust anyone else either. Israel wouldn't allow Iran to do it. Iran/Saudis wouldn't trust Europe. The UN isn't in high regard either.

I think people are living in a fantasy world that Palestinians are going home.

The Palestinians are home. Where are they supposed to go?

Any Muslim majority country is Hellbent on destroying Israel. So that’s not an option.

Oman is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Egypt is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Indonesia is not hellbent on destroying Israel. Neither is Bangladesh, Azerbejan or Brunei. That is just a sample of Muslim majority countries.

I think you are wrong. Egypt is one of the countries that invaded when Israel was founded.

Just because a countries leader isn’t actively attacking Israel doesn’t mean its rhetoric isn't anti-Israel. Because they have to be, because Muslims I'm general is very anti-Israel. Their people would get annoyed

You think wrong. Israel was founded over 70 years ago. Egypt has been at peace with Israel for years . They co- operate on some issues.

If a country was “hell bent” on destroying Israel, there would be massive visible evidence of such a desire. I mentioned 5 majority Muslim countries (a small sample). You should easily be able to produce tangible evidence to support your assertion for at least one (although your hand waved belief requires evidence for 5).

Being anti-Israel does not necessarily mean wanting its destruction, let alone being hell bent on its destruction.

You don’t need to spend a lot of time there to get the vibe. Plenty of street vendors in Cairo sell Mein Kampf along side with the Islamic works.

You are living in a fantasy world.

I have a good friend who is Palestinian. She's lived many years in Copenhagen, and she's well adjusted and an atheist. The crazy antisemitic stuff out of her mouth, is the product of being marinated in that rhetoric. She has no idea of my stance on Israel. I just let her prattle on. Her arguments are zero rational. Its all just religiously based hate, with some postcolonial anti-American leftist jargon thrown in. I bring this up because I think she's representative of how Palestinians think.

I have a Lebanese friend, who I hung out with together with my Israeli Jewish ex wife. He could also spin out into crazy antisemitism. My (then) wife wouldn't flinch. She just let him go on about it. And afterwards she'd just comment "this is how Arabs think".

The good news is that Islam is mostly just posturing and empty talk. Muslims are extremely bad at going through with their threats. Its just that there's a billion of them. So it's still a problem

 

[laughing dog]

You don’t need to spend a lot of time there to get the vibe. Plenty of street vendors in Cairo sell Mein Kampf along side with the Islamic works.

In 2021, a French publisher reissued Mein Kampf. In 2016, Mein Kampf was a best seller in Germany. Are France and Germany “hellbent on the destruction of Israel”?

You are living in a fantasy world.

I suppose it is a fantasy world to expect you to actually provide evidence to support your claim about how any Muslim majority country is hellbent on the destruction of Israel.

The good news is that Islam is mostly just posturing and empty talk. Muslims are extremely bad at going through with their threats. Its just that there's a billion of them. So it's still a problem

You are rebutting your own claim about any Muslim majority country being hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

As an aside, well adjusted people do not prattle "crazy antisemitic stuff". Nor do they go prattle crazy Islamphobic stuff.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You don’t need to spend a lot of time there to get the vibe. Plenty of street vendors in Cairo sell Mein Kampf along side with the Islamic works.

In 2021, a French publisher reissued Mein Kampf. In 2016, Mein Kampf was a best seller in Germany. Are France and Germany “hellbent on the destruction of Israel”?

Just stop. You trying to sweep Islamic antisemitism under the rug is distastfull.

People in the middle East have little historical reasons to care about Nazism. It was a squabble between their colonial overlords. If they read it its because of its antisemitic content.

You are living in a fantasy world.

I suppose it is a fantasy world to expect you to actually provide evidence to support your claim about how any Muslim majority country is hellbent on the destruction of Israel.

The good news is that Islam is mostly just posturing and empty talk. Muslims are extremely bad at going through with their threats. Its just that there's a billion of them. So it's still a problem

You are rebutting your own claim about any Muslim majority country being hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

I don’t think I do.

As an aside, well adjusted people do not prattle "crazy antisemitic stuff". Nor do they go prattle crazy Islamphobic stuff.

The most Islamophobic people I know grew up in the middle East. There's little that can create a more searing hatred of Islam than growing up in an Islamic country.

It is true that my Jewish ex wife has searing hatred of Judaism (after living in Israel). But her hatred is based on theology rather than Israeli policy. She hates all religion equally. But it's certainly not common among expat Israeli Jews. They tend to be fond of Judaism. Jews in general seems to like Judaism even when they're atheists. The fact that Judaism is so accommodating and inclusive of atheistic Jews should tell you everything you need to know on the qualitative differences between Islam and Judaism

 

[laughing dog]

You don’t need to spend a lot of time there to get the vibe. Plenty of street vendors in Cairo sell Mein Kampf along side with the Islamic works.

In 2021, a French publisher reissued Mein Kampf. In 2016, Mein Kampf was a best seller in Germany. Are France and Germany “hellbent on the destruction of Israel”?

Just stop. You trying to sweep Islamic antisemitism under the rug is distastfull.

People in the middle East have little historical reasons to care about Nazism. It was a squabble between their colonial overlords. If they read it its because of its antisemitic content.

Stop shifting the goal posts. I have not denied anti-semitism in the least. You are the one who brought up sales of Mein Kampf as an indication of rampant anti-semitism. Using your standard, then Germany and France are rampantly anti-semitic.

You are living in a fantasy world.

I suppose it is a fantasy world to expect you to actually provide evidence to support your claim about how any Muslim majority country is hellbent on the destruction of Israel.

The good news is that Islam is mostly just posturing and empty talk. Muslims are extremely bad at going through with their threats. Its just that there's a billion of them. So it's still a problem

You are rebutting your own claim about any Muslim majority country being hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

I don’t think I do.

No, you don't feel that you do. Empty talk is not evidence of "hell bent on destroying Israel". Empty threats are just that - empty. Anyone who is hellbent on doing something, actually ACTS.

As an aside, well adjusted people do not prattle "crazy antisemitic stuff". Nor do they go prattle crazy Islamphobic stuff.

The most Islamophobic people I know grew up in the middle East. There's little that can create a more searing hatred of Islam than growing up in an Islamic country.

It is true that my Jewish ex wife has searing hatred of Judaism (after living in Israel). But her hatred is based on theology rather than Israeli policy. She hates all religion equally. But it's certainly not common among expat Israeli Jews. They tend to be fond of Judaism. Jews in general seems to like Judaism even when they're atheists. The fact that Judaism is so accommodating and inclusive of atheistic Jews should tell you everything you need to know on the qualitative differences between Islam and Judaism

I have no idea what brought on that prattle except another shifting of the goal post.

But you keep doing you and slandering millions of Muslims with your bigoted nonsense.

 

[Tigers!]

It's interesting how all European immigrants have to do is say "this is our country now" and people accept their claim to lands outside Europe without a quibble, while indigenous people say "this is our country" about the land where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years and the same folks pretend to be stone deaf.

What made the European Zionist claim that Israel existed stronger than the Palestinian claim that it didn't? The Palestinians outnumbered the Europeans by a 3-1 margin, and as the indigenous people of the region had a much stronger claim to the land than the new arrivals.

I vaguely recall Emperor Hadrian expelling Jews from Jerusalem in 2nd C. AD. Bar Khoba revolt
That suggests Jews have a long time claim to that land. Most of the inhabitants at the time of the Balfor Déclaration could not claim that heritage.
I know in Australia we take seriously (but perhaps not enough) Aboriginal claims to being here when the 1st fleet arrived in 1788. I see no reason to treat Jewish claims to their area any less seriously.

 

[bilby]

It's interesting how all European immigrants have to do is say "this is our country now" and people accept their claim to lands outside Europe without a quibble, while indigenous people say "this is our country" about the land where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years and the same folks pretend to be stone deaf.

What made the European Zionist claim that Israel existed stronger than the Palestinian claim that it didn't? The Palestinians outnumbered the Europeans by a 3-1 margin, and as the indigenous people of the region had a much stronger claim to the land than the new arrivals.

I vaguely recall Emperor Hadrian expelling Jews from Jerusalem in 2nd C. AD. Bar Khoba revolt
That suggests Jews have a long time claim to that land. Most of the inhabitants at the time of the Balfor Déclaration could not claim that heritage.
I know in Australia we take seriously (but perhaps not enough) Aboriginal claims to being here when the 1st fleet arrived in 1788. I see no reason to treat Jewish claims to their area any less seriously.

Sure, but Christianity and Islam are both descended from Judaism, and such claims would encompass the rights of all descendants of the peoples of Roman Judea, most of whom today are Muslims, though some are Christians, and some Jewish.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

No, he's not asking for a source, but rather trying to disrupt by pretending that "bombs" doesn't cover rocket warheads.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason IDF is dropping bombs is because Hamas drops bombs.

Using the mighty Gazan Air Force to strike deep into Israel.

View attachment 45258

You realize basically any such image out of Gaza is done by Hamas, very often staged by Hamas. And sometimes not even real. (AI goofs have been seen.) Never take them at face value.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should not believe that there are both chickens and rubble in Gaza, because the photograph of them was probably staged by a propagandist? To what possible purpose?

Seriously, you should seek psychological help, if this is your response to my tongue in cheek post about the (nonexistent) Gazan Air Force. Your paranoia is off the charts.

They have been caught publishing images with clear AI goofs. Totally stupid but the world doesn't care how nuts they are.

What I am saying is that we shouldn't infer much of anything about conditions in Gaza from their photos.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

No, I need a source for the number of bombs. So far, it seems you pulled that number out of your ass.

Do you, or do you not, believe that over 1000 missiles were launched from Gaza into Israel on October 7th?
Tom

What I believe is not relevant. I asked for a source about a claim of fact. Apparently you don't have one.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt in a previous reply figuring you were nitpicking "bomb" vs "rocket".

Now, however, you're asking for a source for widely known information. Are you actually interested in understanding, or just about "winning"?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"The military said some 9,500 missiles, rockets and drones were fired at Israel from Gaza and other fronts since Oct. 7, and 2,000 of them had been shot down by air defences designed to ignore projectiles on a course to land harmlessly in open areas."
This is snippet from Reuters, early December."
If you still aren't sure what to believe, Google it yourself.
Tom

Note that this does not mean that 7,500 were deemed not a threat.

10/7 saturated the defenses, threatening rockets got through. And note that Iron Dome is about 90% effective--there were certainly leakers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But people defending Islamic violence against Jews are causing more damage to the Palestinians than the Zionists. Zionists will respond to violent attacks with more violence. And not proportional to the deaths and destruction caused by the Islamist terrorists. It will be proportional to the ongoing threat of more Islamic violence.
Tom

How dare you tell the truth?! You have to believe the propaganda!

The Inside Story of How Palestinians Took Over the World

The brilliant Palestinian plan to capture the pliable minds of American college students was laid out in front of me 25 years ago, during a very sinister business meeting in Israel.

jewishjournal.com

 

[Arctish]

It's interesting how all European immigrants have to do is say "this is our country now" and people accept their claim to lands outside Europe without a quibble, while indigenous people say "this is our country" about the land where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years and the same folks pretend to be stone deaf.

What made the European Zionist claim that Israel existed stronger than the Palestinian claim that it didn't? The Palestinians outnumbered the Europeans by a 3-1 margin, and as the indigenous people of the region had a much stronger claim to the land than the new arrivals.

I vaguely recall Emperor Hadrian expelling Jews from Jerusalem in 2nd C. AD. Bar Khoba revolt
That suggests Jews have a long time claim to that land. Most of the inhabitants at the time of the Balfor Déclaration could not claim that heritage.
I know in Australia we take seriously (but perhaps not enough) Aboriginal claims to being here when the 1st fleet arrived in 1788. I see no reason to treat Jewish claims to their area any less seriously.

Sure, but Christianity and Islam are both descended from Judaism, and such claims would encompass the rights of all descendants of the peoples of Roman Judea, most of whom today are Muslims, though some are Christians, and some Jewish.

Exactly.

It's not like the Ashkenazi are the only descendants of the Jews who lived in Judea before the Romans conquered it. The linked article even says that after the revolt failed Jews were still living in Galilee and the ones from Jerusalem were forced to live in Gaza. Their descendants still live in Palestine and are called Palestinians.

There was a poster on this forum who was very offended whenever I talked about Palestinian Jews, and how they have no more and no less right to live in Palestine alongside Palestinians with different religious beliefs. He believed Palestinians and Jews are entirely separate groups with no overlap. The dudgeon got so high at one point I started calling it the P-word. So I have to ask, is anyone here offended when I use the P-word to describe Jews whose ancestors never left the area around Jerusalem? Are you all okay with calling them Palestinian Jews?

Tigers!, you said:

Most of the inhabitants at the time of the Balfor Déclaration could not claim that heritage

That is incorrect. Most of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Balfour Declaration were descendants of the ancient Canaanites. The DNA evidence is compelling and substantial. There's also anecdotal evidence.

About 10 years ago I came across an article from the Jerusalem Post about an amateur historian who was researching the Jewish Palestinian connection. His findings indicate that at the time of the founding of the State of Israel approx. 60% of Palestinians had Jewish grandmothers or great-grandmothers on their mother's side. He also found evidence the 'Arabs' of the Negev were descendants of Jews who were converted at gunpoint by the Mamluks. He believed that was the reason why their embrace of Islam was tepid at best. I'll see if I can find that article again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't see anyone supporting the violence against Jews. That's entirely manufactured by your mind.

We have genocide proponents on here.

 

[laughing dog]

Quit derailing.

Rockets carry bombs on their nose.

Bizarre, isn't it? LD needs a source for the Oct 7 missile attack, launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.
Tom

No, I need a source for the number of bombs. So far, it seems you pulled that number out of your ass.

Do you, or do you not, believe that over 1000 missiles were launched from Gaza into Israel on October 7th?
Tom

What I believe is not relevant. I asked for a source about a claim of fact. Apparently you don't have one.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt in a previous reply figuring you were nitpicking "bomb" vs "rocket".

That’s your MO.

Now, however, you're asking for a source for widely known information. Are you actually interested in understanding, or just about "winning"?

I asked TomC who gave a partial one which satisfied me that he had independent info instead of making stuff it. Instead of worrying about my intentions, just produce a link.