Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread, does not hold up. This comparison lacks depth, especially when considering that the United States has never established a separate state for African Americans based on divine command, and the arrival of Africans in America was not a matter of voluntary migration, particularly to the southern states.
Moreover, the resilience and hope for equal treatment under the law demonstrated by many enslaved Africans, despite the absence of any promising signs, showcases a history of perseverance and heroism. This narrative is filled with instances of African American heroes who fought for justice and equality, contrasting sharply with Loren's argument. The historical absence of widespread violent retaliation by enslaved Africans against their oppressors to safeguard themselves from hostile neighbors further undermines the comparison's validity.

Liberia? If you read up on the establishment of Israel, they were first gunning for Uganda. While Israel held historical significance, Herzl and the other Zionists were at the core pragmatic. They never expected Israel to become available for Jews.

His name escapes me, but the British general in control over Palestine at the end of WW1 was an evangelical Christian who believed Jesus would return if all Jews returned "home" to Israel. He was instrumental in twisting the arm of the British government to create a Jewish homeland. At that point Jews could get paid to go there. And many did. And once ot was established the Zionists dropped the Uganda idea and went to Israel.

The point of this story is that Zionists don’t seem to have been motivated so much by divine right. As just trying to survive

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli settlers with the gov't turning a blind eye have been attacking Palesitinians in the West Bank for years.

Dayum.
Do you realize how long Islamic people were attacking Zionists before that?
Maybe you should google what Muslims did in 1948? Attacking people who survived European disaster? Now complain about being oppressed?

You should google the history of Zionism and immigration to Palestine.

The First Aliyah (1881-1903) was peaceful. European Jews integrated themselves into Palestinian society while holding on to some of their European cultural practices, like wearing big fur hats despite the climate.

The Second Aliyah (1904-1914) was also largely peaceful even though newly established farming communities were occasionally raided by gangs as the Ottoman forces keeping the peace were increasingly embroiled in fending off the French and British in the run up to WWI.

Ok, let's look at your timeline a bit more carefully.

You claim "peaceful" (despite being shown that occasional pogroms were the norm), but look at your second one--the Jews were peaceful, the Arabs were not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

The buildings are blown up, the lack of access to utilities was real, and people are dying. It doesn't matter if it is 25,000 or 2,500. It is high enough for Hamas to use as propaganda.

Hamas messes with the utilities, you blame Israel. At the start Israel talked about blocking them but the reality was it was Hamas actually doing it.

And you only seem to care about dead Palestinians.

*response self-moderated to make moderators job easier... but let me tell you... it was profane*

Israel is trying to prevent a repeat of 10/7. Don't dead Jews matter?

*response self-moderated, but not as easily this time... I mean dude... WTF?!?*

So you don't have an answer.

I'm calling out your statement on "don't dead Jews matter". It is insulting!

Everything is about how many Palestinians are dying.

Israel was given a blank check. The west stepped back, let Israel respond. Israel exceeded the blank check. Netanyahu doesn't get to do whatever he wants for the rest of eternity because of October 7th.

No concern for Israel trying to prevent more Jews dying. Obviously, dead Jews don't matter.

Or maybe, just maybe, some people think that the military response that has gone on this long is not making Israelis safer. That isn't an unreasonable presumption.

But Israel isn't "stopping it". The use of bombs, missiles, bullets don't equate success. Destroying tunnels doesn't equate success. Hamas can't be defeated like this.

This isn't about stopping it. This is about making it longer until the next attack.

Frequency is certainly much less important than scope and magnitude of attacks.

This isn't sports, there's no requirement that you meet them with only equal force. The attacked party is justified in using whatever force is needed to stop the threat even if that's far greater than the harm posed by the initial threat. By your logic a black can't defend himself against a mob of 100 KKKers trying to lynch him because to do so he must kill far more Klansmen than the threat they pose (his life.)

Actually, by my logic, you misunderstood my response. I was stating that increasing the time between now and the next attack on Israel wasn't as important as reducing the frequency and magnitude of the attack. After all, didn't Israeli policy do a swimmingly job in the time between attacks? But no one cared about that because the size of the attack was close to unimaginable based on the size of Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes you did with your “ free pass” comment (see bold-faced sentences).

I don't think Zoid phrased that well, but he's correct.
Islamic terrorists get a free pass on using human shields. That's the big problem Gazans are having right now. Gazans using other Gazans as human shields, including children.

Where's the UN, international law, or the ICJ? They're busy explaining to the media that Israelis are the problem.

I see that as virulent anti-semitism. It's also destroying the Palestinians, not just the Zionists.
Tom

The UN seems to have its hands full at the moment...

UNRWA claims: UK halts aid to UN agency over allegation staff helped Hamas attack

The UK has become the latest country to pause funding for the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA.

It comes after the agency announced the sacking of several of its staff over allegations they were involved in the 7 October Hamas attacks.

The UK government said it was "appalled" by the allegations made by Israel.

The US, Australia, Italy, Canada and Finland have already suspended additional funding to the UN agency.

Created in 1949, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, is the biggest UN agency operating in Gaza. It provides health care, education and other humanitarian aid to Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It employs around 13,000 people inside Gaza.

It's not just "several" bad apples.

10% of UNRWA Staffers Tied to Terrorist Groups: Report

Roughly 10 percent of staffers with the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the international body's aid group for Palestinian refugees, have ties to terrorist groups, according to a Monday Wall Street Journal report.

freebeacon.com

10%.

And this has been a longstanding problem:



Ambulance being used as a troop transport in combat. Note that this is 20 year old video--the problem has been going on at least that long.

There's no way the various people involved don't know the true picture so I expect it to return to the status quo in time unless Israel gives them the boot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lol. Yeah, its problematic when the administrators of a region took part in a brutal terror attack on another country. All the Palestinian government are guilty as fuck. If you refuse to work with brutal killers then getting aid to the Palestinians will be hard.

Share Message - UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks

UNRWA claims: UN chief in aid plea after staff accused of helping Hamas in Israel attack

Countries pause funding for UNRWA over Israeli allegations its staff were involved in the Hamas attacks.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yup, the usual pressure to "do something" even when that something ends up making the problem worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The main issue now is that the barbarity of the 7/10 attack showed that Hammas cannot be allowed to operate freely, anywhere bordering Israel. ...

Presumably justifying much bigger war crimes.

DrZoidberg, if you made a pass at a woman and she snipped off some cherished bits with garden shears, would she be justified in doing so by claiming that you wanted to rape her?

Except this is more like he raped her and she snipped off the bits to prevent another rape.

 

[Gospel]

Ambulance being used as a troop transport in combat. Note that this is 20 year old video--the problem has been going on at least that long.

After 20 years of an alleged common occurrence & the only evidence available is a video from two decades ago? While I'm not outright dismissing your claim, the lack of more recent proof certainly casts doubt on its validity. Or at minimum, says it doesn't happen often enough to level entire hospitals over it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

Probably. Look like another Hamas false flag operation.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

No. Mistaken identity is not a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

No. Military trumps civilian.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

When you believe whatever they tell you to believe you don't get an accurate picture. Whether it Hamas or the QOP doing the talking.

 

[TomC]

10%.

And this has been a longstanding problem:

According to other posters in this thread, the build up of the military installations in Gaza was well known to Gazans and the international community.

I didn't know about it, but I can barely keep up the dumbassery around here.

If the U.N. knew about this and ignored it then they are more responsible for Gazan casualties than Zionists or the IDF. That's just how it is. They could have prevented so many deaths, but didn't.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

No.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc. are where violent bigots gather to plan and commit acts designed to force their opponents to comply with their desires. Just like Zionist terrorists who devised and implemented Plan Dalet. Just like the KKK keeping Black Americans separate and subjugated. Just like the Cossacks carrying out pogroms in Ukraine, the Spanish enslaving Taino in the Caribbean, and every other group who used violence to force others into submission throughout history.

So you are showing that you know your ideas for peace do not work.

I think Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza because it is killing thousands of unarmed civilians. Their deaths won't make Israel any safer, it will rightfully turn more and more people against Israel.

Nobody is saying that killing human shields makes Israel safer. Killing 1/3 of the terrorists (to date) and destroying much of their infrastructure does make Israel safer, though.

I think Israel needs to not only stop building settlements, it needs to relocate the settlers and offer the empty housing to the Palestinians it made refugees when Zionists and the IDF destroyed their homes.

They tried that with Gaza. It made things worse.

I think Israel should never stop wanting the hostages back, and not expect the Palestinians to stop wanting their people back either.

About as useful as thoughts and prayers.

I think Israel should release everyone it is holding in administrative detention, i.e. prisoners who have never been charged with any crime, much less convicted, and should allow an impartial international panel to review the evidence and court proceedings of any non-Israeli who was convicted of a crime. There are credible allegations of torture and suppression of evidence when it comes to Palestinians accused of being enemy combatants. I think it's important for people to believe that justice, not vengeance, is being served.

And the evidence that they are innocent is......?

Besides, it's pretty obvious that they are 100% guilty. Not because the Israeli system is perfect, but the fact that Hamas wants them back. Hamas doesn't want common criminals, only terrorists.

I don't know the details of the peace plan de jure, but I doubt it's so sweet that every asshole in Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can. I do think a good deal would make the less fanatic back off, and the more pragmatic relent entirely. However, I also believe a sweet deal, or even any deal that allows a Palestinian State for be established on Palestine, would inspire fanatic Zionists to murder anyone who supports it, even Jews. They did it before and I expect they will do it again. Likewise for any deal that grants full and equal rights to Palestinians in a One State solution.

In other words, there's no reason to think it will work any better than it has worked in the past--that is, make things worse.

You're also falling for the standard deception that it's what Israel has done that drives it--ignoring the elephant called Iran. I've already shown that Gaza is far from the worst treatment of Muslims in the world, why do none of those areas have Muslim terrorism? No, you find Muslim terrorism in areas where they are the aggressor.

The challenge is to stand up to violent racist bigots and not let them be the driving force in society. Moderates are at a disadvantage when it comes to what they're willing to do to win that fight, but there is strength in numbers. I truly believe that moderates outnumber the murderous assholes in Israel and the Occupied Territories and that someday they will prevail.

Moderates are powerless against the amount of money thrown into terror.

Justice, fairness, respect, and upholding the rights of all persons equally is the only thing that has ever resolved conflicts like the one going on in Israel and Palestine. The sooner we apply one single standard when we judge the rightness or wrongness of a person's or nation's acts, the better for everyone.

No. The only thing that has ever resolved such conflicts is cutting off the money.

IMO bombing civilians who have gathered together to seek shelter, or to get a hot meal, or to enjoy a music festival, is utterly immoral no matter who did it to whom. The perpetrators must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box, and those who have chosen diplomacy and negotiation instead of terrorism and brutality must be supported.

A fart in a hurricane.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Only a fraction of the current US population ever cast a ballot for Trump.

Didn't stop him from gaining office, nor from attempting a coup to try to remain there.

Agreed, so the question becomes do you hold the entire population responsible and as co-conspirators with Trump’s actions? Any penalty he is deserving of all Americans are deserving of?

You're viewing it as punishment.

If the Orange Turd were to attack somebody and the backlash killed Americans I would blame the Orange Turd, not whoever was shooting back.

So your death on the part of our enemy would be justified because of Trump’s actions?

 

[TomC]

Only a fraction of the current US population ever cast a ballot for Trump.

Didn't stop him from gaining office, nor from attempting a coup to try to remain there.

Agreed, so the question becomes do you hold the entire population responsible and as co-conspirators with Trump’s actions? Any penalty he is deserving of all Americans are deserving of?

You're viewing it as punishment.

If the Orange Turd were to attack somebody and the backlash killed Americans I would blame the Orange Turd, not whoever was shooting back.

So your death on the part of our enemy would be justified because of Trump’s actions?

Maybe.
Depending on circumstances.

Is he helping form a human shield around Mar-a-Lago? Is he supporting a violent terrorist group doing Trump's bidding?


The devil is in the details. If he is, then his death might be justified.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

Oh no. Of course Hamas is not going to stop doing any of those atrocities after this ends. There will be a pause while they regroup and rearm (including refurnishing and repurposing dud bombs and shells).

So Israel should just give up and accept genocide?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Only a fraction of the current US population ever cast a ballot for Trump.

Didn't stop him from gaining office, nor from attempting a coup to try to remain there.

Agreed, so the question becomes do you hold the entire population responsible and as co-conspirators with Trump’s actions? Any penalty he is deserving of all Americans are deserving of?

You're viewing it as punishment.

If the Orange Turd were to attack somebody and the backlash killed Americans I would blame the Orange Turd, not whoever was shooting back.

So your death on the part of our enemy would be justified because of Trump’s actions?

So all we need to do is find out who shot first.

If I have my meme's right, it was Hans Solo, so he is free game.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

Oh no. Of course Hamas is not going to stop doing any of those atrocities after this ends. There will be a pause while they regroup and rearm (including refurnishing and repurposing dud bombs and shells).

So Israel should just give up and accept genocide?

Are we even supposed to take this response seriously?

Unfettered / unquestioned military response for dictator wannabee Netanyahu... or you are okay with genocide against the Israelis. These are the only two options?!

 

[Toni]

The main issue now is that the barbarity of the 7/10 attack showed that Hammas cannot be allowed to operate freely, anywhere bordering Israel. ...

Presumably justifying much bigger war crimes.

DrZoidberg, if you made a pass at a woman and she snipped off some cherished bits with garden shears, would she be justified in doing so by claiming that you wanted to rape her?

Except this is more like he raped her and she snipped off the bits to prevent another rape.

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

 

[laughing dog]

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

Oh no. Of course Hamas is not going to stop doing any of those atrocities after this ends. There will be a pause while they regroup and rearm (including refurnishing and repurposing dud bombs and shells).

So Israel should just give up and accept genocide?

Are you trying to illustrate the fallacy of the excluded middle between the genocide of Gazan's residents or the genocide of Israelis? Otherwise, your response is a straw man question.

 

[TomC]

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

Not everyone thinks like you do.

You may not care about the ongoing threat of a demonstrated rapist claiming he'll commit more rapes, but other people might.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jews will never be safe as long as people think someone being Jewish, or not being Jewish, is a reason to target them for abuse, mistreatment, and ignoring their human rights. A person's safety isn't a matter of them having their own state. It's a matter of what they State they live in does to them or for them, and why.

Correct so far. But note that the reason for the existence of Israel is that there is no other state that hasn't at least tolerated such mistreatment.

Israel can be a secular State where everyone is treated equally regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. (One State solution). Or it can be a racist religious ethno-state where the State decrees where you can live, what roads you can drive on, which communities you can enter and whether or not you have to leave by sundown (Two State solution). Or it can try to wipe out the Palestinian people altogether either through rigorous ethnic cleansing or genocide, and have all of Palestine become part of the State of Israel without the indigenous Palestinian population being brought in as well (Rogue State solution).

I prefer the One State solution for reasons having to do with living in a peaceful mixed race, mixed religion, mixed cultural heritage place in the world.

Except this doesn't make the Palestinians peaceful. You're just asking for genocide.

The Two State solution can work if both states have enough arable land, access to vital resources, and freedom to chart their own course without sabotage from the other. It won't be easy to achieve but it can be done.

The Rogue State solution gets a hard No! from me.

It won't work so long as money continues to pour into terror.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nah. The people who wield actual power in the world tend to be well informed. I think the only way to be pro-Hamas is to have swallowed dumb propaganda. You won't get actual power if you are naive enough to fall for the Palestinian bullshit.

Or they are antisemites and like what Hamas is doing. They know the reasons are bullshit but don't care.

The pro-palestinian voices in the west is just noise. I think it's unlikely to have an impact. All governments must be aware that they need to back Israel now. Anything else is unworkable. But politicians are politicians. They can think and do different things

A lot of people would like to see Hamas win. Stick it to the Jews.