Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

But if you're talking about the situation in Gaza and Israel: Killing rapists without a trial and conviction is not only almost certainly illegal but would only lead to the creation of martyrs and would further escalate violence or at least keep it going (but probably escalate) which is the opposit

I don't remember which poster first compared making a pass to rape. It wasn't me.
Then went on to compare it to the situation in Palestine.
Do you remember who it was, or why they did that?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's Israel that is acting like terrorist "human animals" here. What Israel ought to have done is get the Palestinian Authority to extradite them to Israel so that they can face trial for their alleged terrorist crimes. Israel has numerous Palestinians detained in its jails without specifying what they are supposed to be guilty of. They ought to face trial, and public trial with all the evidence exposed in full public view.

If Israel has such a super good case against them, then it will win nearly every case, and everybody will be able to see how justified Israel is in winning those cases. Acting as if it has something to hide won't do anything for it.

How in the world do you think the PA would extradite a terrorist?!?! Even Europe wouldn't extradite the Munich terrorists which is why Israel resorted to assassination.

As for evidence, we already have everything we need. Hamas has claimed one of them PIJ has claimed the other two. That makes them enemy combatants, a valid target in times of war, nothing more is needed.

So you don't believe in rule of law or due process? From your statements, one has to do is claim that someone is a terrorist and one will have an absolute right to murder them. How is that different from what Hamas apologists claim?

You have it backwards.

The terrorist organizations have claimed them as members--if they're going to lie it will be in the other direction (surprising how many "civilians" end up with military funerals some months down the road.) So they are enemy combatants and in times of war that's all that's needed to kill an enemy combatant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

Not just Muslim rule. It was pretty much everywhere. From Germany to the USA to the Muslim world, anti-Jewish bigotry dominated.

Comparing the world Jewish people lived in during the 20th century is very apropos to the world U.S. black people lived in.
Tom

But the pogroms were pretty much only a Muslim thing at that point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you are ignoring the root cause--the 10/7 attack.

I am not ignoring anything. The 10/7 attack presented the gov't of Israel with an array of possible responses. The gov't of Israel is responsible for the choices it makes.

For the aim of clarity could you please list some/all of the possible responses the Israel govt had?
We all known about the bombing of Gaza so what other options did they have?
And could you also note the responses that Israel could do without you crying war crime(s) or disproportionate response?

Responses that are both feasible and effective. Plenty of pie-in-the-sky nonsense has been proposed.

 

[laughing dog]

That is illogical and factually incorrect. The IDF is the one dropping the bombs. The bombs are the direct
You have argued and continue to argue that the IDF is justified in its actions. Those actions include killing innocent civilians. It is irrational to deny something occurs when you acknowledge it is occurring.

I have never said that. I think you're twisting words. I also don't think you believe it. I think you're just being dishonest to score debate points, or something. Just stop.

You think wrong. Placing the entire onus on Gazan civilian deaths on Hamas and denying any IDF responsibility is doing just that. Please stop flinging your slanderous projections.

The Palestinian civilian deaths were expected by Hamas. They chose to act knowing that--the deaths are their responsibility. Not only that, but civilian deaths were a desired objective of Hamas.

And he's right that you're twisting things rather than addressing them.

I see, you feel that the IDF must fulfill the expectations of Hamas no matter what. That is simply ridiculous.

Peace is not going to be acheived with an autonomous Palestine. They've had plenty of time to show the world they're capable of living in peace with Israel. It's just not happening. If the Palestinians can't be trusted to behave themselves then someone else will need to come in to do it. Israel has a good track record. So I think they taking over is our best bet for stability. And we'll just have to accept that we'll never have peace anywhere around Palestinians.

Certainly not with that patronizing and bigoted attitude.

What does his attitude have to do with what might happen over there? He's not in any way a decision maker. Once again, you're avoiding the point.

Given how often you fling out your baseless accusation that someone is avoiding the point , I am pretty sure you have no idea what a point actually is. Because your response clearly is based on the absurd notion that the attitude expressed by Dr Zoidberg is unique to him alone.

 

[laughing dog]

I would add that the IDF is no longer engaging in the defense of Israel. There is no danger of an immediate attack from Gaza. Continued bombing and killing at this point has little or nothing to do with defense and everything to do with revenge.

And once again you fail to understand. You qualified your statement with "immediate". In civilian self defense that is a required attribute because the assumption is that you can go to the police otherwise. However, there's no police to go to in this case, "immediate" has no relevance.

Neither does your response. Gaza has little to no capability to attack. It is delusional to think the IDF can eradicate all the terrorists and destroy all the weaponry.

 

[TomC]

Gaza has little to no capability to attack.

Tell that to the victims of 10/7.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Facts are facts. Denying reality is delusional.

Then why do you keep doing it?

I am not the one denying that the IDF is actually killing civilians. I am not the one denying that the gov't of Israel is responsible for its choices. I get that the dead Palestinian civilians either in the West Bank or Gaza are responsible for their own deaths according to bigots and the delusional.

Peace is not going to be acheived with an autonomous Palestine. They've had plenty of time to show the world they're capable of living in peace with Israel. It's just not happening. If the Palestinians can't be trusted to behave themselves then someone else will need to come in to do it. Israel has a good track record. So I think they taking over is our best bet for stability. And we'll just have to accept that we'll never have peace anywhere around Palestinians.

Certainly not with that patronizing and bigoted attitude.

Trust is earned. I think the Palestinians have had every opportunity, and keep blowing it

And you think the gov't of Israel has earned trust through its persistent land grabs and violations of Palestinian human dignity in the West Bank?

And how exactly are the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank "blowing it"?

It has already been pointed out that their government pays for terrorism. And I've pointed out the wall built to stop small arms fire--nobody builds walls like that unless they are actually facing such fire.

Every gov't pays for terrorism in some form or another - especially Israel. As for the wall, if the wall was built to stop small arms fire and nothing else (a big if), that must mean that small arms fire is no longer an issue. Which rebuts your derail.

Then what's your plan? You seem to think peace is possible. How do you propose it can be acheived?

Right now, peace is not possible because there is too much distrust, fear, and hate. Peace is going to take a very long because it requires trust and real courage. Real courage is not terrorism ir killing civilians by yhe thousands, it is turning the other cheek when necessary which, in turn, requires trust.[

Yeah. But Israel can't endlessly keep being nice and then get rammed in the ass. Enough is enough

Israel is not endlessly nice.

But you expect them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice.

There is simply no logical connection between saying "Israel is not endlessly nice" and "Expecting them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice".

 

[Gospel]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

Are you suggesting that, given their historical treatment, African Americans would have been justified in taking drastic actions against every white person? Ya know, like what Israel is doing to Palestinians in Gaza?

 

[Gospel]

And some people choose to overlook the fact that Hamas targets civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, because it helps them sleep at night.
Tom

Well golly gee. I wonder who those people are? You don't even have to leave IIDB to find them. Kindly do a search for a post that supports your claim sir.

We don't know that it's to help them sleep better but why else would people blame Israel for the massacre?

They're the ones dropping dumb bombs in urban areas?

 

[Gospel]

How would you feel about living in the South in 1900? Because that's approximately what you are saying the Jews should have accepted.

The comparison presented is not only historically inaccurate but also considerably insensitive. Jewish people were not forced into boats and taken to Palestine in chains; they migrated there by choice. Furthermore, if we were to entertain such an ill-conceived analogy, do you believe that America would extend the same level of support to the blacks in the south that they themselves (not Germany) actually harmed? Indeed, following the Civil War, there was an opportunity to enact significant change, but instead, individuals who had been adversarial to the state were allowed to retain their positions of influence, due to reasons similar to the one that made you think your analogy was a wonderful idea. Bigotry.

Please note that I said "1900", not "the 19th century." In other words, Jim Crow, not slavery.

Ok, fare enough I guess. During the Jim Crow era, while there were rare occurrences of violence initiated by African Americans, these actions were generally in response to the systemic racism and violence they faced, and were significantly less common. The primary victims of violence during this time were Black individuals themselves. Indeed, African Americans have endured oppression similar to Jewish communities globally. However, a key distinction lies in the fact that African Americans did not control essential resources such as water, electricity, agriculture, or borders of those who oppressed them, nor did they engage in actions that could be likened to genocide against racist Americans of that era. Your comparison seems to aim at justifying Israel's actions, yet there's no parallel to be drawn with African Americans' response, which notably included significant achievements through nonviolent means. all despite the lynchings, racial segregation, voting disenfranchisement, economic exploitation, massacres, educational inequality, healthcare discrimination, house discrimination and fat piles of other steaming hot shit. Your Analogy just doesn't work.

 

[Toni]

But if you're talking about the situation in Gaza and Israel: Killing rapists without a trial and conviction is not only almost certainly illegal but would only lead to the creation of martyrs and would further escalate violence or at least keep it going (but probably escalate) which is the opposit

I don't remember which poster first compared making a pass to rape. It wasn't me.
Then went on to compare it to the situation in Palestine.
Do you remember who it was, or why they did that?
Tom

I don’t. I had to be out of town and I am certain I have not read every post. Sorry.

 

[Toni]

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

Not everyone thinks like you do.

You may not care about the ongoing threat of a demonstrated rapist claiming he'll commit more rapes, but other people might.
Tom

I think the correct thing to do is to try and convict and imprison a rapist.

Not everyone is as unaware as you are that rape can be committed by inserting a variety of objects into a variety of orifices. Rape is violence and violent people will commit violence, with or without a penis.

True, it's not a perfect prevention. But this is the world stage, you can't put a country in jail.

You cannot. But you can prosecute people for war crimes. Hamas did not rape Israelis. Members of Hamas did, surely with the encouragement and perhaps direction of leaders.

 

[Gospel]

Responses that are both feasible and effective. Plenty of pie-in-the-sky nonsense has been proposed.

Yeah Ideas like cutting off money to Hamas would improve the situation. Did you forget that Iran and Hezbollah exists? They aren't happy with Israel either if you missed the memo. I'd like to see how your non-pie-in-the-sky idea can work on Iran/Hezbollah.

 

[repoman]

30 Palestinians with hands tied behind their backs mass executed in Gaza by the IDF?

Cite? I haven't heard of this one.

Since you won't approve of any of my sources,

https://www.google.com/search?q=bei...HfH_A1MQ_AUoA3oECAMQBQ&biw=1366&bih=621&dpr=1

also this

So, if there are not independent media in Gaza now and if this is NOT covered by the standard MSM does that mean it did NOT happen?

For a counter example that is not related, if MSNBC shows very little wrongdoing or incompetence or corruption by Democrats (same for FOX and Repubs) does that mean there is very little?

 

[Gospel]

The main issue now is that the barbarity of the 7/10 attack showed that Hammas cannot be allowed to operate freely, anywhere bordering Israel. And since they have popular support from the Palestinians, Israel needs to take over handling security from now on. There's just no other way. Israel just needs to do whatever they need to do to succeed.

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians. At this point a dead Palestinian civilian gives Hammas blood on their hands. Not Israel. Israel is just doing what it needs to do to defend itself.

And again, we must not let Hammas get away with using their own people as human shields. If we reward that they'll just keep doing it. It's just an unacceptable behaviour

Two words. International Law. Get familiar.

Lol.

I laughed at your total disregard for international law & you laughed at international laws. You should sign up to join Hamas.

No. I laughed at your fantasy of superior understanding of international law

Well will you look at that. I have a fantasy of having a superior understanding of international law.

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's Israel that is acting like terrorist "human animals" here. What Israel ought to have done is get the Palestinian Authority to extradite them to Israel so that they can face trial for their alleged terrorist crimes. Israel has numerous Palestinians detained in its jails without specifying what they are supposed to be guilty of. They ought to face trial, and public trial with all the evidence exposed in full public view.

If Israel has such a super good case against them, then it will win nearly every case, and everybody will be able to see how justified Israel is in winning those cases. Acting as if it has something to hide won't do anything for it.

How in the world do you think the PA would extradite a terrorist?!?! Even Europe wouldn't extradite the Munich terrorists which is why Israel resorted to assassination.

As for evidence, we already have everything we need. Hamas has claimed one of them PIJ has claimed the other two. That makes them enemy combatants, a valid target in times of war, nothing more is needed.

So you don't believe in rule of law or due process? From your statements, one has to do is claim that someone is a terrorist and one will have an absolute right to murder them. How is that different from what Hamas apologists claim?

You have it backwards.

The terrorist organizations have claimed them as members--if they're going to lie it will be in the other direction (surprising how many "civilians" end up with military funerals some months down the road.) So they are enemy combatants and in times of war that's all that's needed to kill an enemy combatant.

We already know Hamas is lying about the numbers of civilian dead. The administration of Gaza has collapsed. The PA and Hammas have lost control, especially in the areas with the fighting. Yet, Hamas has no problem knowing how many have been killed or wounded at any time. The speed of their reporting is suspiciously fast. They report number of dead in minutes. But there's so many displaced now. They have no idea where people are. And obviously they're not sending functionaries to count bodies in an area where rockets are flying.

And its the PA that administers Gaza. Not Hamas. Hamas is hardly in a position to know. Yet they're the ones reporting on the dead.

Not to mention of all the straight up lies they've been telling. They've reported schools and hospitals hit, when theirs pictures of them undamaged.

Hamas has no idea how many have been kille. Civilian or fighter. They're just pulling numbers out their ass.

I think it's absolutely true that the moment a Hamas fighter has been hit Hamas counts the guy as a civilian. Its all part of the propaganda war

 

[Arctish]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

Not just Muslim rule. It was pretty much everywhere. From Germany to the USA to the Muslim world, anti-Jewish bigotry dominated.

Comparing the world Jewish people lived in during the 20th century is very apropos to the world U.S. black people lived in.
Tom

But the pogroms were pretty much only a Muslim thing at that point.

At which point?

Be specific.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Facts are facts. Denying reality is delusional.

Then why do you keep doing it?

I am not the one denying that the IDF is actually killing civilians. I am not the one denying that the gov't of Israel is responsible for its choices. I get that the dead Palestinian civilians either in the West Bank or Gaza are responsible for their own deaths according to bigots and the delusional.

They (the Palestinians, as a society) chose the path of war. They are responsible for the results of that war.

It has already been pointed out that their government pays for terrorism. And I've pointed out the wall built to stop small arms fire--nobody builds walls like that unless they are actually facing such fire.

Every gov't pays for terrorism in some form or another - especially Israel. As for the wall, if the wall was built to stop small arms fire and nothing else (a big if), that must mean that small arms fire is no longer an issue. Which rebuts your derail.

Once again, you're babbling. You perfectly well know that "pay for terrorism" means money for the purpose of funding terrorism.

And you're wrong about the wall. They blocked most small arms fire but the geometry doesn't permit blocking all of it. And a wall does nothing about stuff on a ballistic flight path.

Then what's your plan? You seem to think peace is possible. How do you propose it can be acheived?

Right now, peace is not possible because there is too much distrust, fear, and hate. Peace is going to take a very long because it requires trust and real courage. Real courage is not terrorism ir killing civilians by yhe thousands, it is turning the other cheek when necessary which, in turn, requires trust.[

Yeah. But Israel can't endlessly keep being nice and then get rammed in the ass. Enough is enough

Israel is not endlessly nice.

But you expect them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice.

There is simply no logical connection between saying "Israel is not endlessly nice" and "Expecting them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice".

You say they shouldn't do anything that's not quite so nice. That means giving Hamas free reign to keep repeating 10/7, just as they have said they intend to do. Thus you are asking them to lie down and die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

Are you suggesting that, given their historical treatment, African Americans would have been justified in taking drastic actions against every white person? Ya know, like what Israel is doing to Palestinians in Gaza?

Except they aren't. If Israel were actually trying to indiscriminately kill people they would have done a far better job of it.

They're trying to smash Hamas. Hamas is so integrated into the civilian structure that a lot of it ends up wrecked in the process. Israel is still telling people to get off the X--and Hamas is shooting people who get off the X.