Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

And some people choose to overlook the fact that Hamas targets civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, because it helps them sleep at night.
Tom

Well golly gee. I wonder who those people are? You don't even have to leave IIDB to find them. Kindly do a search for a post that supports your claim sir.

We don't know that it's to help them sleep better but why else would people blame Israel for the massacre?

They're the ones dropping dumb bombs in urban areas?

Try paying attention to what's actually happening.

It's not dumb bombs in urban areas. Against more isolated targets dive-bombing is good enough, no need to use a guided bomb.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How would you feel about living in the South in 1900? Because that's approximately what you are saying the Jews should have accepted.

The comparison presented is not only historically inaccurate but also considerably insensitive. Jewish people were not forced into boats and taken to Palestine in chains; they migrated there by choice. Furthermore, if we were to entertain such an ill-conceived analogy, do you believe that America would extend the same level of support to the blacks in the south that they themselves (not Germany) actually harmed? Indeed, following the Civil War, there was an opportunity to enact significant change, but instead, individuals who had been adversarial to the state were allowed to retain their positions of influence, due to reasons similar to the one that made you think your analogy was a wonderful idea. Bigotry.

Please note that I said "1900", not "the 19th century." In other words, Jim Crow, not slavery.

Ok, fare enough I guess. During the Jim Crow era, while there were rare occurrences of violence initiated by African Americans, these actions were generally in response to the systemic racism and violence they faced, and were significantly less common. The primary victims of violence during this time were Black individuals themselves. Indeed, African Americans have endured oppression similar to Jewish communities globally. However, a key distinction lies in the fact that African Americans did not control essential resources such as water, electricity, agriculture, or borders of those who oppressed them, nor did they engage in actions that could be likened to genocide against racist Americans of that era. Your comparison seems to aim at justifying Israel's actions, yet there's no parallel to be drawn with African Americans' response, which notably included significant achievements through nonviolent means. all despite the lynchings, racial segregation, voting disenfranchisement, economic exploitation, massacres, educational inequality, healthcare discrimination, house discrimination and fat piles of other steaming hot shit. Your Analogy just doesn't work.

I was talking about the situation before the creation of Israel. Or an alternative history where Israel wasn't created. Your key distinction does not apply to the scenario in question! Jews in Muslim lands were very much like blacks in Jim Crow.

 

[laughing dog]

Facts are facts. Denying reality is delusional.

Then why do you keep doing it?

I am not the one denying that the IDF is actually killing civilians. I am not the one denying that the gov't of Israel is responsible for its choices. I get that the dead Palestinian civilians either in the West Bank or Gaza are responsible for their own deaths according to bigots and the delusional.

They (the Palestinians, as a society) chose the path of war. They are responsible for the results of that war.

Bullshit squared.

It has already been pointed out that their government pays for terrorism. And I've pointed out the wall built to stop small arms fire--nobody builds walls like that unless they are actually facing such fire.

Every gov't pays for terrorism in some form or another - especially Israel. As for the wall, if the wall was built to stop small arms fire and nothing else (a big if), that must mean that small arms fire is no longer an issue. Which rebuts your derail.

Once again, you're babbling. You perfectly well know that "pay for terrorism" means money for the purpose of funding terrorism.

And you're wrong about the wall. They blocked most small arms fire but the geometry doesn't permit blocking all of it. And a wall does nothing about stuff on a ballistic flight path.

You're the one who said it stopped small arms fire, not me. I simply took your word for it. But you showed me that your word cannot be taken.

Then what's your plan? You seem to think peace is possible. How do you propose it can be acheived?

Right now, peace is not possible because there is too much distrust, fear, and hate. Peace is going to take a very long because it requires trust and real courage. Real courage is not terrorism ir killing civilians by yhe thousands, it is turning the other cheek when necessary which, in turn, requires trust.[

Yeah. But Israel can't endlessly keep being nice and then get rammed in the ass. Enough is enough

Israel is not endlessly nice.

But you expect them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice.

There is simply no logical connection between saying "Israel is not endlessly nice" and "Expecting them to lie down and die rather than be not quite so nice".

You say they shouldn't do anything that's not quite so nice. That means giving Hamas free reign to keep repeating 10/7,

Not it does not mean that. Your claim is based on the fallacy of the excluded middle. In other words, you are babbling inanities.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

Not everyone thinks like you do.

You may not care about the ongoing threat of a demonstrated rapist claiming he'll commit more rapes, but other people might.
Tom

I think the correct thing to do is to try and convict and imprison a rapist.

Not everyone is as unaware as you are that rape can be committed by inserting a variety of objects into a variety of orifices. Rape is violence and violent people will commit violence, with or without a penis.

True, it's not a perfect prevention. But this is the world stage, you can't put a country in jail.

You cannot. But you can prosecute people for war crimes. Hamas did not rape Israelis. Members of Hamas did, surely with the encouragement and perhaps direction of leaders.

And how do you propose to prosecute them when Hamas won't give them up??

I doubt the leaders either encouraged or directed rape--that's non-productive time. Other than that, though, they certainly don't care. They are clearly indifferent to atrocities.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Responses that are both feasible and effective. Plenty of pie-in-the-sky nonsense has been proposed.

Yeah Ideas like cutting off money to Hamas would improve the situation. Did you forget that Iran and Hezbollah exists? They aren't happy with Israel either if you missed the memo. I'd like to see how your non-pie-in-the-sky idea can work on Iran/Hezbollah.

The main effort seems to have gone into Hamas.

And note that you're not rebutting my point at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

30 Palestinians with hands tied behind their backs mass executed in Gaza by the IDF?

Cite? I haven't heard of this one.

Since you won't approve of any of my sources,

https://www.google.com/search?q=bei...HfH_A1MQ_AUoA3oECAMQBQ&biw=1366&bih=621&dpr=1

also this

So, if there are not independent media in Gaza now and if this is NOT covered by the standard MSM does that mean it did NOT happen?

For a counter example that is not related, if MSNBC shows very little wrongdoing or incompetence or corruption by Democrats (same for FOX and Repubs) does that mean there is very little?

I note that article is repeating the common stolen-organ garbage. Thus I consider the rest of it no more credible.

I also find it questionable that a bunch of them would be blindfolded and handcuffed but no mention made of being stripped. I find the whole thing highly suspect.

I also find no mention of how they were killed. They easily could have ended up killed because someone tried something and the soldiers opened up on the group.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

Hamas is trying their damndest to make it as hard as possible for the IDF to tell combatants apart from Palestinian civilians. Their fighters most often wear civilian clothing. And they use hospitals as military staging posts, to guarantee civilian casualities if they’re attacked.

I'd argue that unless Hamas makes it possible for the IDF to distinguish between fighters and civilians, then Hamas holds full responsibility for civilian casualities. Remember, Hamas started all this 7/10. Israel didn't.

If someone says that Israel can't attack unless they guarantee no civilian casualities then Hamas' despicable tactics are rewarded. That is NOT a good precedent. Fuck Hamas for doing this to the Palestinian people. It's only OK to be a martyr for a cause if it's a cause you have chosen. It's disgusting how Hamas is forcing so many Palestinians to become martyrs for their pointless cause.

 

[lpetrich]

We already know Hamas is lying about the numbers of civilian dead.

Evidence-free assertion.

 

[lpetrich]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

Evidence-free assertion.

 

[lpetrich]

Mouin Rabbani on X: "Even Israel doesn't fall for Israeli propaganda. That leaves only US and EU as faithful customers" / X
notes
Yuval Abraham יובל אברהם on X: "Israeli intelligence …" / X

Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.

The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.

According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.

One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.

'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'

Why might they consider Gaza's Health Ministry a reliable source?

Ben Goren on X: "@MouinRabbani The contrast between Israeli media and UK media is stark. Israelis have no fear of saying what they think right or wrong. In the UK, from the guests to the hosts to the producers, everyone is worried about getting a phone call or a letter from the Embassy or one of its outriders." / X

 

[lpetrich]

darryl li on X: "Mr. “Suck On This” finally crashed his cognitive Lexus into a racist olive tree on the flat earth of mangled metaphors" / X
noting
Dalia Hatuqa on X: "How is racist genocidal garbage like this allowed in the @nytimes (pic link)" / X

Feb. 2, 2024
Thomas L. Friedman Opinion Columnist

Understanding the Middle East Through the Animal Kingdom

Is there a better description of Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq today? They are the caterpillars. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is the wasp. The Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas and Kataib Hezbollah are the eggs that hatch inside the host -- Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq -- and eat it from the inside out.

We have no counterstrategy that safely and efficiently kills the wasp without setting fire to the whole jungle.

What an analogy.

 

[Arctish]

darryl li on X: "Mr. “Suck On This” finally crashed his cognitive Lexus into a racist olive tree on the flat earth of mangled metaphors" / X
noting
Dalia Hatuqa on X: "How is racist genocidal garbage like this allowed in the @nytimes (pic link)" / X

Feb. 2, 2024
Thomas L. Friedman Opinion Columnist

Understanding the Middle East Through the Animal Kingdom

Is there a better description of Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq today? They are the caterpillars. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is the wasp. The Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas and Kataib Hezbollah are the eggs that hatch inside the host -- Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq -- and eat it from the inside out.

We have no counterstrategy that safely and efficiently kills the wasp without setting fire to the whole jungle.

What an analogy.

I thought guys who wrote for the New York Times would be a little more circumspect about comparing people to insects.

Guess I should lower my expectations.

 

[Toni]

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

Not everyone thinks like you do.

You may not care about the ongoing threat of a demonstrated rapist claiming he'll commit more rapes, but other people might.
Tom

I think the correct thing to do is to try and convict and imprison a rapist.

Not everyone is as unaware as you are that rape can be committed by inserting a variety of objects into a variety of orifices. Rape is violence and violent people will commit violence, with or without a penis.

True, it's not a perfect prevention. But this is the world stage, you can't put a country in jail.

You cannot. But you can prosecute people for war crimes. Hamas did not rape Israelis. Members of Hamas did, surely with the encouragement and perhaps direction of leaders.

And how do you propose to prosecute them when Hamas won't give them up??

I doubt the leaders either encouraged or directed rape--that's non-productive time. Other than that, though, they certainly don't care. They are clearly indifferent to atrocities.

I propose we do the same thing we do with other war criminals: either ignore it as happens all to frequently or when the criminals can be identified and captured, try them for their crimes. I'm not certain what you are proposing.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Mouin Rabbani on X: "Even Israel doesn't fall for Israeli propaganda. That leaves only US and EU as faithful customers" / X
notes
Yuval Abraham יובל אברהם on X: "Israeli intelligence …" / X

Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.

The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.

According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.

One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.

'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'

Why might they consider Gaza's Health Ministry a reliable source?

Ben Goren on X: "@MouinRabbani The contrast between Israeli media and UK media is stark. Israelis have no fear of saying what they think right or wrong. In the UK, from the guests to the hosts to the producers, everyone is worried about getting a phone call or a letter from the Embassy or one of its outriders." / X

Aha, the "because a guy on the Internet said so" -argument.

 

[DrZoidberg]

darryl li on X: "Mr. “Suck On This” finally crashed his cognitive Lexus into a racist olive tree on the flat earth of mangled metaphors" / X
noting
Dalia Hatuqa on X: "How is racist genocidal garbage like this allowed in the @nytimes (pic link)" / X

Feb. 2, 2024
Thomas L. Friedman Opinion Columnist

Understanding the Middle East Through the Animal Kingdom

Is there a better description of Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq today? They are the caterpillars. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is the wasp. The Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas and Kataib Hezbollah are the eggs that hatch inside the host -- Lebanon, Yemen, Syria and Iraq -- and eat it from the inside out.

We have no counterstrategy that safely and efficiently kills the wasp without setting fire to the whole jungle.

What an analogy.

I thought guys who wrote for the New York Times would be a little more circumspect about comparing people to insects.

Guess I should lower my expectations.

I agree. I think it would be more fitting to compare Hamas to a disease to be eradicated. Calling these guys insects, is insulting to wasps

 

[Shadowy Man]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

Hamas is trying their damndest to make it as hard as possible for the IDF to tell combatants apart from Palestinian civilians. Their fighters most often wear civilian clothing. And they use hospitals as military staging posts, to guarantee civilian casualities if they’re attacked.

I'd argue that unless Hamas makes it possible for the IDF to distinguish between fighters and civilians, then Hamas holds full responsibility for civilian casualities. Remember, Hamas started all this 7/10. Israel didn't.

If someone says that Israel can't attack unless they guarantee no civilian casualities then Hamas' despicable tactics are rewarded. That is NOT a good precedent. Fuck Hamas for doing this to the Palestinian people. It's only OK to be a martyr for a cause if it's a cause you have chosen. It's disgusting how Hamas is forcing so many Palestinians to become martyrs for their pointless cause.

So you would agree that the civilian deaths are justified collateral damage in the IDF’s war against Hamas, yes?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

Hamas is trying their damndest to make it as hard as possible for the IDF to tell combatants apart from Palestinian civilians. Their fighters most often wear civilian clothing. And they use hospitals as military staging posts, to guarantee civilian casualities if they’re attacked.

I'd argue that unless Hamas makes it possible for the IDF to distinguish between fighters and civilians, then Hamas holds full responsibility for civilian casualities. Remember, Hamas started all this 7/10. Israel didn't.

If someone says that Israel can't attack unless they guarantee no civilian casualities then Hamas' despicable tactics are rewarded. That is NOT a good precedent. Fuck Hamas for doing this to the Palestinian people. It's only OK to be a martyr for a cause if it's a cause you have chosen. It's disgusting how Hamas is forcing so many Palestinians to become martyrs for their pointless cause.

So you would agree that the civilian deaths are justified collateral damage in the IDF’s war against Hamas, yes?

No, I don't.

I think Hamas are the ones who should be held accountable for the civilian deaths.

Hamas provoked a retaliation and are now hiding behind civilians. So they are to blame.

 

[repoman]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

Hamas is trying their damndest to make it as hard as possible for the IDF to tell combatants apart from Palestinian civilians. Their fighters most often wear civilian clothing. And they use hospitals as military staging posts, to guarantee civilian casualities if they’re attacked.

I'd argue that unless Hamas makes it possible for the IDF to distinguish between fighters and civilians, then Hamas holds full responsibility for civilian casualities. Remember, Hamas started all this 7/10. Israel didn't.

If someone says that Israel can't attack unless they guarantee no civilian casualities then Hamas' despicable tactics are rewarded. That is NOT a good precedent. Fuck Hamas for doing this to the Palestinian people. It's only OK to be a martyr for a cause if it's a cause you have chosen. It's disgusting how Hamas is forcing so many Palestinians to become martyrs for their pointless cause.

So you would agree that the civilian deaths are justified collateral damage in the IDF’s war against Hamas, yes?

No, I don't.

I think Hamas are the ones who should be held accountable for the civilian deaths.

Hamas provoked a retaliation and are now hiding behind civilians. So they are to blame.

Israel has no agency?

 

[Shadowy Man]

The degree of barbarity in the Hammas attack, and the behaviour of Hammas, I think, gives Israel a free pass to not be so concerned about civilians.

Under international humanitarian law, particularly the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, all parties to a conflict are obligated to distinguish between military objectives and civilians at all times, and to take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm. By law they do not have a "free pass to not be so concerned about civilians". Bruh, it doesn't take a superior understanding (something I've claimed to have only in your fantasy) to see it.

While I agree with you on this what you fail to see is that Israel's behavior is consistent with international law.

You take what precautions you can but you're not obligated to pass on military targets because there are civilians in the area.

Hamas is trying their damndest to make it as hard as possible for the IDF to tell combatants apart from Palestinian civilians. Their fighters most often wear civilian clothing. And they use hospitals as military staging posts, to guarantee civilian casualities if they’re attacked.

I'd argue that unless Hamas makes it possible for the IDF to distinguish between fighters and civilians, then Hamas holds full responsibility for civilian casualities. Remember, Hamas started all this 7/10. Israel didn't.

If someone says that Israel can't attack unless they guarantee no civilian casualities then Hamas' despicable tactics are rewarded. That is NOT a good precedent. Fuck Hamas for doing this to the Palestinian people. It's only OK to be a martyr for a cause if it's a cause you have chosen. It's disgusting how Hamas is forcing so many Palestinians to become martyrs for their pointless cause.

So you would agree that the civilian deaths are justified collateral damage in the IDF’s war against Hamas, yes?

No, I don't.

I think Hamas are the ones who should be held accountable for the civilian deaths.

Hamas provoked a retaliation and are now hiding behind civilians. So they are to blame.

I understand your point as to blame. But I’m not addressing blame. It seems you agree that the level of response the IDF has taken is justified and that the collateral damage is as expected whoever we “blame” for it.

If Israel were to simply carpet bomb or nuke Gaza, ensuring that 100% of Hamas and Gazans were killed, would that be a justified response and we could simply blame Hamas for the carnage?

I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t respond but clearly there’s a line and we are negotiating that line.