Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas (not Gazans)

Some choose to overlook this detail, because it helps them sleep at night believing that they aren't endorsing the widespread killing of innocents.

For urban combat Israel's record on not killing innocents is second to none.

Assuming that is true, that does not justify the disproportionate response.

And once again you do not understand what proportionate means in this situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And some people choose to overlook the fact that Hamas targets civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, because it helps them sleep at night.
Tom

Well golly gee. I wonder who those people are? You don't even have to leave IIDB to find them. Kindly do a search for a post that supports your claim sir.

We don't know that it's to help them sleep better but why else would people blame Israel for the massacre?

So only poor people are responsible for their choices?

I don't see what in the world you are referring to with "poor".

 

[lpetrich]

In an ideal world no innocents would die. That's not the real world, though. Civilian deaths in war happen. They especially happen when human shield tactics are being used.

This reminds me of the Hamas apologists who claim that Hamas only attacks military targets and that civilian casualties are a regrettable side effect.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Moving forward, another strategy for Israel, following their ineffective approach with Hamas, could be to reconsider the idea of Jordan assuming control over the West Bank, this time including the Gaza Strip in the arrangement. Jordan has historically maintained relative peace at the holy sites, allowing both Christian and Muslim for the most part safe access to Jerusalem. Perhaps this model could be extended to manage the West Bank and Gaza, benefiting Palestinians and Israel as a whole. For this to happen, Israel would need to cease its settlement activities.

And you think Jordan would want that???

And "settlement activities" is propaganda. When Israel built their wall that was a de-facto freeze of any expansion.

Somehow the settlers in the West Bank or Netanahyu didn’t get that memo.

What settlement activities beyond the wall have happened??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How would you feel about living in the South in 1900? Because that's approximately what you are saying the Jews should have accepted.

The comparison presented is not only historically inaccurate but also considerably insensitive. Jewish people were not forced into boats and taken to Palestine in chains; they migrated there by choice. Furthermore, if we were to entertain such an ill-conceived analogy, do you believe that America would extend the same level of support to the blacks in the south that they themselves (not Germany) actually harmed? Indeed, following the Civil War, there was an opportunity to enact significant change, but instead, individuals who had been adversarial to the state were allowed to retain their positions of influence, due to reasons similar to the one that made you think your analogy was a wonderful idea. Bigotry.

Please note that I said "1900", not "the 19th century." In other words, Jim Crow, not slavery.

 

[lpetrich]

It's Israel that is acting like terrorist "human animals" here. What Israel ought to have done is get the Palestinian Authority to extradite them to Israel so that they can face trial for their alleged terrorist crimes. Israel has numerous Palestinians detained in its jails without specifying what they are supposed to be guilty of. They ought to face trial, and public trial with all the evidence exposed in full public view.

If Israel has such a super good case against them, then it will win nearly every case, and everybody will be able to see how justified Israel is in winning those cases. Acting as if it has something to hide won't do anything for it.

How in the world do you think the PA would extradite a terrorist?!?! Even Europe wouldn't extradite the Munich terrorists which is why Israel resorted to assassination.

As for evidence, we already have everything we need. Hamas has claimed one of them PIJ has claimed the other two. That makes them enemy combatants, a valid target in times of war, nothing more is needed.

So you don't believe in rule of law or due process? From your statements, one has to do is claim that someone is a terrorist and one will have an absolute right to murder them. How is that different from what Hamas apologists claim?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you are ignoring the root cause--the 10/7 attack.

I am not ignoring anything. The 10/7 attack presented the gov't of Israel with an array of possible responses. The gov't of Israel is responsible for the choices it makes.

Yeah, you keep advocating for Israel to simply let the massacres continue.

Besides, we have many incidents that appear to be Hamas simply killing people to blame the IDF.

Are you seriously arguing that the death rate of Gazan civilians is a vast over-estimate of the deaths caused by IDF bombing?

I am not attempting to compare them--I have seen no data to compare numbers.

What I do keep seeing are reports of "IDF snipers" doing things that make no sense and sometimes in areas where no IDF sniper could reach.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli settlers with the gov't turning a blind eye have been attacking Palesitinians in the West Bank for years.

That's what the Palestinians would have you believe.

Inspecting the UN's strange numbers on settler violence

Opinion: Looking into the UN's data on settler violence reveals inaccuracies meant to placate the international body's conflict for supporting Israel's war

www.ynetnews.com

Yes, there are some but the numbers are greatly exaggerated.

I get my news from the Economist, not Israeli propaganda sources. The current gov't does virtually nothing to stop attacks by settlers or to prosecute them.

And your evidence their counts are wrong is???

And note what they are showing--that the vast majority is not actually settler violence. Of course nothing is done about events that didn't happen! I do agree Israel usually doesn't do much--but typically they have no way to. No credible witnesses, no forensics.

The last many centuries of oppression have rather developed a "live and let live" attitude in Jewish culture.

Bullshit. If that were true, there'd be no thread about the war in Gaza.

You are taking on faith the idea that this war is because of Israel. So long as you worship a falsehood you'll never understand.

Your response is totally off the wall. There is a war. The cause is not relevant to that discussion. Please stop telling me what I believe or how I believe, because you suck at it.

You're still responding with irrelevancies. Your statement says that you believe Israel caused the current war.

I'm just looking at the implications of the various (and often contradictory) positions you hold.

 

[TomC]

There's many parallels to how blacks were treated after the Civil War. One shouldn't compare degrees of mysery. But both are very sad

The analogy Loren tries to make between the plight of Africans in the American South and the destruction in Gaza by Israel, citing dislike from neighbors as a common thread,

You got it utterly wrong.

I'm comparing blacks under Jim Crow to Jews under Muslim rule. The "peaceful" coexistence multiple people on here want.

Not just Muslim rule. It was pretty much everywhere. From Germany to the USA to the Muslim world, anti-Jewish bigotry dominated.

Comparing the world Jewish people lived in during the 20th century is very apropos to the world U.S. black people lived in.
Tom

 

[Tigers!]

Dude, I was just saying castration doesn’t stop a rapist.

Applies whether one is being literal or metaphorical.

That’s the whole thing.

Execution will though.

Typically the execution follows a trial, that demonstrates the named person was found guilty of committing a horrific crime.

Are named people currently being targeted because intel indicates they committed such a crime?

Or is this a kill 'em all sort of scenario and we'll just assume the bad guys died. One of the parts of justice (an important one) is the public determination of guilt.

I was replying more to Toni discussion with Loren about rapists, not those on the ground in Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Anything Hammas tells the international press is uncritically immediately printed as if it's the truth. Even though it's obviously nonsense. After the first day of fighting Hammas could report exactly how many had died within minutes. But it took Israel two whole days to figure out who had been killed after the 7/10 attack. And Israel is an uncorrupt well functioning western state. While no Palestinian records are reliable.

The buildings are blown up, the lack of access to utilities was real, and people are dying. It doesn't matter if it is 25,000 or 2,500. It is high enough for Hamas to use as propaganda.

Hamas messes with the utilities, you blame Israel. At the start Israel talked about blocking them but the reality was it was Hamas actually doing it.

And you only seem to care about dead Palestinians.

*response self-moderated to make moderators job easier... but let me tell you... it was profane*

Israel is trying to prevent a repeat of 10/7. Don't dead Jews matter?

*response self-moderated, but not as easily this time... I mean dude... WTF?!?*

So you don't have an answer.

I'm calling out your statement on "don't dead Jews matter". It is insulting!

You're still not addressing it. The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Everything is about how many Palestinians are dying.

Israel was given a blank check. The west stepped back, let Israel respond. Israel exceeded the blank check. Netanyahu doesn't get to do whatever he wants for the rest of eternity because of October 7th.

Hamas was planning on the world controlling Israel. You're playing right into their hands.

No concern for Israel trying to prevent more Jews dying. Obviously, dead Jews don't matter.

Or maybe, just maybe, some people think that the military response that has gone on this long is not making Israelis safer. That isn't an unreasonable presumption.

Only if they have already bought into the Hamas propaganda.

But Israel isn't "stopping it". The use of bombs, missiles, bullets don't equate success. Destroying tunnels doesn't equate success. Hamas can't be defeated like this.

This isn't about stopping it. This is about making it longer until the next attack.

Frequency is certainly much less important than scope and magnitude of attacks.

This isn't sports, there's no requirement that you meet them with only equal force. The attacked party is justified in using whatever force is needed to stop the threat even if that's far greater than the harm posed by the initial threat. By your logic a black can't defend himself against a mob of 100 KKKers trying to lynch him because to do so he must kill far more Klansmen than the threat they pose (his life.)

Actually, by my logic, you misunderstood my response. I was stating that increasing the time between now and the next attack on Israel wasn't as important as reducing the frequency and magnitude of the attack. After all, didn't Israeli policy do a swimmingly job in the time between attacks? But no one cared about that because the size of the attack was close to unimaginable based on the size of Hamas.

Increasing the time is reducing the frequency! It's not a permanent thing, though--Hamas will in time rebuild.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The UN seems to have its hands full at the moment...

UNRWA claims: UK halts aid to UN agency over allegation staff helped Hamas attack

And add to my previous list:

Majority of UN workers killed in Gaza died while ‘off duty,’ data reveals

Exclusive: Data analysis shows almost half died in the three weeks immediately after October 7, before Israel launched its ground invasion

www.telegraph.co.uk

Men account for nearly two-thirds (93) of the total deaths, according to the data. This is surprising as women make up 59 per cent of the UN’s 13,000-strong workforce in Gaza.

When you see things like this it's pretty clear they weren't civilians.

And look farther down at the chart showing UN deaths vs civilian deaths. Once again, major discrepancies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ambulance being used as a troop transport in combat. Note that this is 20 year old video--the problem has been going on at least that long.

After 20 years of an alleged common occurrence & the only evidence available is a video from two decades ago? While I'm not outright dismissing your claim, the lack of more recent proof certainly casts doubt on its validity. Or at minimum, says it doesn't happen often enough to level entire hospitals over it.

How often do we get uncensored video out of Gaza these days?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

Oh no. Of course Hamas is not going to stop doing any of those atrocities after this ends. There will be a pause while they regroup and rearm (including refurnishing and repurposing dud bombs and shells).

So Israel should just give up and accept genocide?

Are we even supposed to take this response seriously?

Unfettered / unquestioned military response for dictator wannabee Netanyahu... or you are okay with genocide against the Israelis. These are the only two options?!

Nobody is proposing a viable third path. They're all wishful thinking.

 

[Toni]

Dude, I was just saying castration doesn’t stop a rapist.

Applies whether one is being literal or metaphorical.

That’s the whole thing.

Execution will though.

I'm against the death penalty. Full stop.

But if you're talking about the situation in Gaza and Israel: Killing rapists without a trial and conviction is not only almost certainly illegal but would only lead to the creation of martyrs and would further escalate violence or at least keep it going (but probably escalate) which is the opposite of what is wanted and needed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don’t kid yourself. Snipping off the dangly bits is revenge.

Not everyone thinks like you do.

You may not care about the ongoing threat of a demonstrated rapist claiming he'll commit more rapes, but other people might.
Tom

I think the correct thing to do is to try and convict and imprison a rapist.

Not everyone is as unaware as you are that rape can be committed by inserting a variety of objects into a variety of orifices. Rape is violence and violent people will commit violence, with or without a penis.

True, it's not a perfect prevention. But this is the world stage, you can't put a country in jail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is funny how you keep switching back and forth between "Palestinians are very supporting of Hamas" (it is their fault!) and Palestinians have "no viable horse to back if they want peace" (they have no control). Admittedly, it is hard to parse just how Palestinians stand on this as they aren't provided much of anything to express and emote. But your post just feels so weaselly to justify whatever point you are making at the second.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

The average Palestinian has no ability to choose peace. However, they consistently poll as supporting war (at a far higher rate than they poll as supporting Hamas--it isn't just saying what they are supposed to.)

so, does that make them legitimate targets of war? Their deaths are justified if they die during an attack on Hamas personnel or infrastructure?

They consider the people dying worth it to hurt Israel. Are we to tell them they're wrong?

 

[Tigers!]

But you are ignoring the root cause--the 10/7 attack.

I am not ignoring anything. The 10/7 attack presented the gov't of Israel with an array of possible responses. The gov't of Israel is responsible for the choices it makes.

For the aim of clarity could you please list some/all of the possible responses the Israel govt had?
We all known about the bombing of Gaza so what other options did they have?
And could you also note the responses that Israel could do without you crying war crime(s) or disproportionate response?

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is funny how you keep switching back and forth between "Palestinians are very supporting of Hamas" (it is their fault!) and Palestinians have "no viable horse to back if they want peace" (they have no control). Admittedly, it is hard to parse just how Palestinians stand on this as they aren't provided much of anything to express and emote. But your post just feels so weaselly to justify whatever point you are making at the second.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

The average Palestinian has no ability to choose peace. However, they consistently poll as supporting war (at a far higher rate than they poll as supporting Hamas--it isn't just saying what they are supposed to.)

so, does that make them legitimate targets of war? Their deaths are justified if they die during an attack on Hamas personnel or infrastructure?

They consider the people dying worth it to hurt Israel. Are we to tell them they're wrong?

you didn’t answer my question.

Should I assume your answer is “yes”?