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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Unfortunately, historically Israel has felt compelled to clamp down in the face of aggression and frankly terrorism.
Yes. And that's exactly the opposite of the effective strategy. People need to start doing what works, and stop doing what feels good, but is known not to work.
And what evidence does Israel have that being kinder and gentler towards a terrorist organization would be effective? When it is surrounded by countries who literally want it to be obliterated. Not because of anything that has happened in the last 80 years but because they are Jewish.

Why was Israel created? Because there was an extremely concerted and very brutal, very effective attempt to exterminate all Jews. To blame Jews for whatever it happened to be convenient to blame Jews for.

Atheists seem very keen for Israel to turn the other cheek. Or toss more of their babies in swords.
 
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By injuring children? That is just barbaric.
Not intentionally. Sometimes children get injured or killed. But unlike with Hamas, I have not seen any evidence Israel targets children.
Hamas also stores and launches rockets from residential areas. That itself is a war crime. All the more reason for Qatar to extradite the terrorist leaders it harbors.
Your “Shit happens” apologia morally depraved. The intent does not change the results.

Derec said:
Settler violence is bad. The difference is, Israelis who attack Palestinians get prosecuted by Israel.
No, they don’t. Their homes are not bulldozed or seized.
 
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I can't help seeing parallels between European colinizers of north america and later the behavior of the US government and native americans.

There were atrocities on moth sides.

But in the and native americans who want to retain their culture are living in poverty on their wastland reservation.
 
Unfortunately, historically Israel has felt compelled to clamp down in the face of aggression and frankly terrorism.
Yes. And that's exactly the opposite of the effective strategy. People need to start doing what works, and stop doing what feels good, but is known not to work.
And what evidence does Israel have that being kinder and gentler towards a terrorist organization would be effective? When it is surrounded by countries who literally want it to be obliterated. Not because of anything that has happened in the last 80 years but because they are Jewish.

Why was Israel created? Because there was an extremely concerted and very brutal, very effective attempt to exterminate all Jews. To blame Jews for whatever it happened to be convenient to blame Jews for.

Atheists seem very keen for Israel to turn the other cheek. Or toss more of their babies in swords.
Again, the root cause of the conflict is the manner in which Israel formed, seizure of land and expulsion. Followed by oppression, military occupation, continued sinecure of kand.

If I were Palestine at this point I'd fight back any way I coid.

Keep in mind in Palestine the Jews resorted to what today we would call terrorist tactics.

Hmmm...Jews in Pal seine form militias to fight back against Arab oppression. Palestinians arm theselves to fight back against Israeli oppression.

Kinda makes you think, don't it?

Palestinians want Israel out of Gaza and the West Bank unconditionally, much as Ukraine wants Russia out unconditionally.

Haganah (Hebrew: הַהֲגָנָה ha-Haganah, lit. 'The Defense') was the main Zionist paramilitary organization that operated for the Yishuv in the British Mandate for Palestine.[2] It was founded in 1920 to defend the Yishuv's presence in the region, and was formally disbanded in 1948, when it became the core force integrated into the Israel Defense Forces shortly after the Israeli Declaration of Independence.

Formed out of previous existing militias, Haganah's original purpose was to defend Jewish settlements against Arab attacks; this was the case during the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, the 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Palestine riots, the 1936 Jaffa riots, and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, among others. The paramilitary was under the control of the Jewish Agency, the official governmental body in charge of Palestine's Jewish community during the British era. Until the end of World War II, Haganah's activities were moderate, in accordance with the strategic policy of havlagah (lit. 'self-restraint'), which caused the breakaway of the more radical paramilitaries: Irgun and Lehi. Haganah militants received clandestine military support from Poland and sought cooperation with the United Kingdom in the event of an Axis-led invasion of Palestine through North Africa, prompting the creation of the Palmach, their elite fighting force, in 1941.

Following the end of World War II, the British refused to lift the restrictions on Jewish immigration that they had imposed with the 1939 White Paper. This resulted in Haganah leading a Jewish insurgency against the British authorities in Palestine; the campaign included the paramilitaries' bombing of bridges, railways, and ships used to deport illegal Jewish immigrants, as well as assisting in bringing more diaspora Jews to Palestine in defiance of British policies. After the adoption of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947, Haganah came into the open as the biggest fighting force among the Palestinian Jews, successfully overcoming Arab militias during the Palestinian Civil War. Shortly after the beginning of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, Haganah was merged with other paramilitary

In the 90s Israeli government tried to move nomads off where they had been for generations to make way for Jewish immigrants.

In this case internal popular opposition prevented it.

 
I can't help seeing parallels between European colinizers of north america and later the behavior of the US government and native americans.

There were atrocities on moth sides.

But in the and native americans who want to retain their culture are living in poverty on their wastland reservation.
I can say this because I am not a politican or public figure.

Native Americans who insist on living in semi isolation on reservations make their own conditions. They insist on a cultural barrier behind which they live as they think they did centuries ago.

Some PNW tribes are finding ways to participate economically, some do not. They have their own police and legal systems. Some think they will live in perpetuity fishing salmon.

They seem to bang drums a lot.

I live on the edge of Chinatown. Their leaders complain about poverty, yet when you walk trough Chinatown many busnesses have Chinese signs and speak only Chinese. They cling to culture and many do not or barely speak English.

Go into a Chinese store as an outsider and you may be ignored.

Certainly not all of Chinatown. I shop and eat there. But cultire and ethncity carried to an extreme is self limiting.


Natve Amercans need to come into the modern world.
 
Almost everyone condemns Hamas' slaughter of almost a thousand people. Of course Israel must and will retaliate by slaughtering ten thousand people, many of them innocent. We understand that. But shouldn't there be some limit? Israel's planned response borders on genocide; why isn't this also universally condemned?

In the long lists of Palestinian grievances and Israeli misbehavior that led to Hamas' attack, oppression at the Al-Aqsa Mosque is a minor item. Still I found this YouTube interesting.


Everybody knows that Muslims kneel toward Mecca when they pray. What I didn't know is that this was a later development: Originally they prayed to Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, the site where Mohammed, praise be unto him, rose to Heaven. For centuries this holy site was treated with respect by all religions. That changed as right-wingers seized control of Israel and its occupied territories.
 
And what evidence does Israel have that being kinder and gentler towards a terrorist organization would be effective? When it is surrounded by countries who literally want it to be obliterated. Not because of anything that has happened in the last 80 years but because they are Jewish.

Why was Israel created?
Nevermind why. The problem, as you yourself note, is the where.

The British gave them a big chunk of Palestine, but as with so much of what the British gave people (and/or helped themselves to), it wasn't theirs to give.

If Israel had been created in Wales, that would have been better, though you'd likely have the Sons of Glyndŵr launching attacks on illegal settlers. Perhaps the English could have given them Lancashire instead, though that could be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

Better yet, Israel could have been created in the USA. There's plenty of big tracts of semi-desert that look a lot like Palestine. Or they could have just been given governance over New York City, which already has a large Jewish population.

Creating a homeland for Jews, well away from Europeans who hated them, sounds like a good plan post WWII. But creating it in a place where even more of their neighbours are antisemitic than was the case in Europe, seems pretty stupid.

Perhaps the Allies should have just given them Prussia, as a massive "fuck you" to the surviving Nazis. If you think they deserved to be given a big tract of land as a consequence of attempted genocide, then it makes little sense to give them land that didn't belong to the perpetrators of that genocide.
 
By, for example, killing them. Not by capitulating to them.
You can't win. So you have to stop being enemies.
You can't stop being enemies with genocidal terrorists like Hamas.
So, your solution to "genocidal terrorists" is...

Genocide.
Why are you conflating Hamas with Palestinians?
I'm not. I'm observing that my interlocutor makes that conflation, and assuming that he hasn't suddenly stopped doing so just because he didn't labour the point.
 
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And what evidence does Israel have that being kinder and gentler towards a terrorist organization would be effective? When it is surrounded by countries who literally want it to be obliterated. Not because of anything that has happened in the last 80 years but because they are Jewish.

Why was Israel created?
Nevermind why. The problem, as you yourself note, is the where.

The British gave them a big chunk of Palestine, but as with so much of what the British gave people (and/or helped themselves to), it wasn't theirs to give.

If Israel had been created in Wales, that would have been better, though you'd likely have the Sons of Glyndŵr launching attacks on illegal settlers. Perhaps the English could have given them Lancashire instead, though that could be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

Better yet, Israel could have been created in the USA. There's plenty of big tracts of semi-desert that look a lot like Palestine. Or they could have just been given governance over New York City, which already has a large Jewish population.

Creating a homeland for Jews, well away from Europeans who hated them, sounds like a good plan post WWII. But creating it in a place where even more of their neighbours are antisemitic than was the case in Europe, seems pretty stupid.

Perhaps the Allies should have just given them Prussia, as a massive "fuck you" to the surviving Nazis. If you think they deserved to be given a big tract of land as a consequence of attempted genocide, then it makes little sense to give them land that didn't belong to the perpetrators of that genocide.

Hitler's original idea was to deport all the Jews from Europe to elsewhere--Palestine being the most likely landing zone. That might have made sense to a lot of non-Jewish Germans, because the Jewish population in German-speaking territories was relatively small. But then he conquered Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine, which had rather large Jewish populations. Deportation was no longer a solution, so the Nazis came up with their horrific "Final Solution". That made sense to the Nazi planners in a region where Stalin's Soviet Union had already been engaged in mass murder of civilian populations (albeit mainly Poles and Ukrainians in the 1930s).

Now we have a massive revenge killing of Israeli civilians and hostage-taking by Hamas militants over last weekend. The Israeli response by the ultranationalist government has begun to sound the same notes of blaming Palestinian civilians for not stopping Hamas from unleashing their revenge terror campaign on Israel. Half the population in Gaza is under 18, and 1.1 million civilians, who are cut off from water, food, and power, are ordered to leave the northern half of the Gaza strip. It doesn't matter what their age or situation is, whether they are well enough to travel, or what their beliefs are. They are lumped together with the Hamas terrorists and given an impossible order to flee. The humanitarian catastrophe is exactly what the planners of the Hamas attack would have expected and probably wanted--a reciprocal atrocity that would balance the horrific one perpetrated by Hamas and perhaps even take it a step beyond. This will satisfy the desire for revenge of some who have been horrified by the Hamas attack, but it will likely end up in the deaths of a great many innocent civilian hostages, not to mention Palestinians caught between Hamas and Israeli cruelty. Now is not the time for revenge. It is the time to pull back and exercise restraint. There is not going to be a military solution to these reciprocal acts of violence. Hezbollah is already chomping at the bit to jump in from Lebanon, and they pose much more of a threat to Israel than the Hamas terrorists. Palestinian Israeli citizens now face the possibility of random reprisals, and there are already reports of reprisal killings of Palestinians in the West Bank.

As Gaza war rages, Israeli forces kill 27 Palestinians in West Bank

 
Hitler's original idea was to deport all the Jews from Europe to elsewhere--Palestine being the most likely landing zone.
I understand that Madagascar was seriously considered. And as early as 1907, serious consideration was given to creating a Jewish homeland in the Kimberley region in the northern part of the state of Western Australia.

The latter plan would have unwittingly gifted them control of what turned out to be one of the richest iron ore resources in the world. And the WA and Australian governments were desperate for immigrants at the time; They would have been welcomed with open arms.

But apparently God preferred them to have the far less useful and valuable Negev instead. Shit, He didn't even bother to mention Australia in his Big Book of Everything (whether you look at the Torah, Quran, or Bible for your definitive divine work). Kangaroos and Wallabies bad an epic journey to and from the Ark, but got nary a nod from Noah, or at least none that was recorded.
 
As Israel masses its troops in the south on the border with Gaza, Hezbollah sits up north in Lebanon and gradually preparing to jump into the fray. They are better supplied than Hamas, better trained, and likely have more advanced Iranian weaponry, including drones and missiles. I fear that the Gaza attack depleted a lot of the ammunition in the Iron Dome that might be needed to defend against a Hezbollah attack in the north. I hope that it won't happen, but the prospect of large numbers of Palestinians dying in Gaza could open up a pretense for a Hezbollah attack from Lebanon. Israel was not prepared for the Hamas attack, and it may be even less prepared for a Hezbollah attack. It is a very small country that cannot expect help from surrounding Muslim countries. It is possible that US troops could actually be drawn into this mess, if Israel's defense starts to falter. I honestly don't know what the Biden administration would do in the face of a wider outbreak of war in the Middle East.
 
Oh thank fuck. America's very stable genius has weighed in on this conflict and has provided an intelligent and nuanced assessment that will no doubt de-escalate the situation -

...wait, he said fucking what? Oh for fuck's sake.


Israel on Thursday condemned former US President Donald Trump's remarks praising the Iran-backed militant group Hezbollah and criticising Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over the ongoing war, calling it “shameful” and “unreliable”.

I mean...fucking...I'm done. But seeing as certain people are upset that Trump might be misquoted, here's the video from the New York Post.



and this one which is really cringe inducing with the typical "I met this guy, a big guy and he said 'Sir'", yadda yadda you know the rest but Trump takes a gigantic shit on Netanyahu in particular and Israel in general.

 

Shall we start with the Right of Return for approx. 15,000 Palestinian refugees to their former communities in Israel and both sides legitimizing some of the settlements in the Occupied Territories, which would absolutely result in some degree of integration?
I am happy for that to happen provided the Jews who fled Jordan, Iraq, Lebabnon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morooco etc. in 1948 onwards can return to their former communities and thus result in some degree of integration.
Jewish exodus from arab lands
I'd be very happy if Jews who were driven out of Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morocco, etc. could return to their homes and communities, or at least be compensated for their losses, but that's up to Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt to Morocco, etc.

Not letting Palestinian refugees return to the places from which they were driven out until some other ethnic or religious community can return to someplace else is irrational. Likewise, not letting those other people return to their places of origin until the Palestinians can return makes no sense. All that does is perpetuate the problem for everyone.

But let's suppose we tie the return for all of them together. Do you support the Right of 15,000 Jews to return to their former homes? Then you should be advocating for the 15,000 Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes in Israel.
I have never said there not not be a right of return
 
For all their terrorist evil and the shitting they are doing on their own population, Hamas is still very popular on the Palestinian street.
That's because they hate Israel, and are prepared to express that hatred in violence.

It's a constant throughout history that public opinion favours people who are violent towards people who are mistreating that public.

If you want Palestinians to stop loving Hamas, and to stop loving terrorists who attack Israel and/or America, then you'll need Israel (and America) to be kind, supportive and generous towards Palestinians.

If Israel were building infrastructure in Gaza - roads, hospitals, schools, even mosques, then not only would it be harder for Hamas and their ilk to obtain popular support, it would also mean that Israel would have more control over the materials needed for building infrastructure, and make it harder for Hamas to divert those materials to belligerent purposes.

It's both impractical and unacceptable to kill everyone in Gaza who hates Israel. So if you want Gazans to love Israel, you're going to need Israel to kill them with kindness, rather than with bombs.
In Palestine, Hamas dug up water pipes and turned them into rockets to send into Israel.
Enmity between Jewish people and Palestinians has existed for many generations prior to the establishment of Israel.

Neither side seems willing to treat the other with anything like kindness and any such attempts at kindness are met with hostility and suspicion and usually a lot of violence.

Israel, despised by much of the Arab world for existing has profited much more than have the Palestinians who should have allies in the Arab world--which exist only for the purpose of destroying Israel, not for helping Palestinians. Why?

Palestinians DO have friendly countries who would want to be allies. What response should Lebanon, Syria, Egypt do...pick them up in boats? Think about it. US and some NATO members just sent ships to stop any nefarious undertakings. It isn't practical to stand up to US or to appear to support terrorists.
Egypt does not appear to be particlaurly friendly towards Gaza. They enforce a rigourous check on the crossing they control. I do not expect Egypt to welcome with open arms Hams fighters onto their terrority
 
In Palestine, Hamas dug up water pipes and turned them into rockets to send into Israel.
Enmity between Jewish people and Palestinians has existed for many generations prior to the establishment of Israel.
Sure. So how do you plan to defeat an enemy who are prepared to take on a twenty-first century technologically advanced enemy, armed with weapons improvised from water pipes?

You can't win. So you have to stop being enemies.
Neither side seems willing to treat the other with anything like kindness and any such attempts at kindness are met with hostility and suspicion and usually a lot of violence.
Yup. So is this an indication that previous attempts were too kind; Or that they were nowhere near kind enough?
Of course the unstated assumption is that neither side will slap away the proffered hand. Unfortunately that is highly likely from either side.
 
Just gonna leave this here. Rest in power Michael Brooks.



4:20 - It's not complex. It's just that. How much can a people suffer?

Almost everyone condemns Hamas' slaughter of almost a thousand people. Of course Israel must and will retaliate by slaughtering ten thousand people, many of them innocent. We understand that. But shouldn't there be some limit? Israel's planned response borders on genocide; why isn't this also universally condemned?

In the long lists of Palestinian grievances and Israeli misbehavior that led to Hamas' attack, oppression at the Al-Aqsa Mosque is a minor item. Still I found this YouTube interesting.


Everybody knows that Muslims kneel toward Mecca when they pray. What I didn't know is that this was a later development: Originally they prayed to Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, the site where Mohammed, praise be unto him, rose to Heaven. For centuries this holy site was treated with respect by all religions. That changed as right-wingers seized control of Israel and its occupied territories.


I would hardly call it "minor" though. It is a great indignity among decades of indignities suffered by the Palestinian people.

European Jews created Hamas. Ultranationalist Jews created Hamas. Netanyahu created Hamas. In 1947 the United States under the guise of the United Nations created Hamas. All along the Palestinians just tried to survive, suffering indignity after indignity.
What would you do?
 
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