Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Biden is not trying to appease Rashida Tlaib,

I said the Rashida Tlaib wing, especially the antisemitic feathers on the far left wingtip of the Democratic base.

he's trying desperately to navigate a complex issue and find a path somewhere in the middle between two extremes that both result in unacceptable amounts of death and destruction.

"Somewhere in the middle" again reminds me of that John Kerry cartoon I posted upthread.

WWII resulted in huge amounts of death and destruction. It would still have been wrong to stop shot of victory and leave Nazis in power.

Finding good middle-ground solutions may be difficult, but killing 100,000 Gazans is not the way to go according to way more people than merely

How many Germans died in WWII? Including civilians, including children? War is hell, but let's not forget who started this one. Just like we should not forget that Germany started WWII.

Rashida Tlaib who essentially has no political power.

Tlaib is a congresswoman, so she obviously has some political power. But I wasn't just talking about her, but about all her Ilk.
You know, the types yelling "Death to America" in Dearbornistan.

Deplorable!

You skipped over the actual technical detail of phase 1 which is NOT a permanent ceasefire, but instead a ceasefire and moving Israeli troops out of POPULATED areas in Gaza. In other words, the troops are still there close by during phase 1. This is the best bet to get more hostages as a ceasefire and talks has shown to be WAY MORE effective at doing so.

But this is only the first phase. And note that only ~30 hostages would be released in exchange for 100s of Palestinian terrorists.

All this later speculation of a phase 2 below is something that might not even happen, not because it is not part of the proposal but instead because Israel and Palestinians hardly can keep a ceasefire:

It's not exactly speculation, it's part of the framework Biden is pushing.

During the second phase, it is up to Israel and Gaza to negotiate. The further along in the phases etc, the more dynamic, unknown, and frankly hard to keep to the proposal it will be. I don't believe they will be able to keep a ceasefire anyway and so some other kind of international intervention or just a NEW PLAN may be necessary. And none of that is relevant because the immediate need is to maximize hostage release while minimizing civilian deaths.

How is the small number of hostages to be released in Phase 1, "maximizing" anything?

That is a moronic idea that since Hamas would never accept,

It is the only idea that would lead to a lasting peace. Call it the "German Model".

would result in more deaths of both Gazan civilians and eventually the hostages.

It is questionable how many hostages are still alive even now. Last time there were talks about a ceasefire deal, Hamas talked about "dead or alive" hostages to be released. There is also the issue of hostages being held by different factions such as Islamic Jihad.

We can observe from the past interactions between Israel and Hamas that the best course of action to get hostages released is to negotiate for hostage release, not useless ultimatums.

The more Hamas is given for hostages, the more incentive they and other terror groups have to take hostages again.

Any of those things that could be non-starters in a current negotiation can be forced later on after Hamas gives up its leverage, i.e. the hostages. Ergo, having them give up leverage (and Israeli lives) is the immediate need. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I do not think Hamas and other terror groups will ever agree to give up all hostages, as they want that leverage.

 

[lpetrich]

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "Rafah | Taken today in Rafah
Israeli soldiers from the Givati brigade today in Rafah.
They stole it from the Palestinian house after displacing or killing its residents. (pic link)" / X

Tali {}{} on X: "Things are coming to a boiling point as Israeli soldiers in Gaza are not only posting their genocidal crimes and colonial ideation but also calling for mutiny and a military coup. (Part I) h/t @ofer_n (vid link)" / X
and
Tali {}{} on X: "Military coup and genocide (Part II) (vid link)" / X
and
Tali {}{} on X: "And for a bit of royalty drama, here we have Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant's nephew reporting bitterly that this video calling to subordinate the army directly to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, was reposted by none other than Netanyahu's son. (pic link)" / X

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: " “This village shall no longer exist” ..." / X

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "[@tamerqdh] unveils alarming footage depicting Israeli soldiers burning Quran book within a mosque in Gaza.
The video captures a soldier tossing the Quran into flames as the mosque is set ablaze. (vid link)" / X
Would that soldier like it if someone burned a copy of the Tanakh in front of him? That's what Jews call Old Testament or Hebrew Bible.

 

[laughing dog]

And your point is...?

That the plan Biden is pushing is proposing a "permanent" ceasefire without Hamas being removed from power.

President Biden explicitly said Hamas would not be in power. Of course, there was no detail and there is no way to guarantee such an outcome over time. So it seems your objection is based on a utopian view of possibilities.

 

[Derec]

President Biden explicitly said Hamas would not be in power. Of course, there was no detail and there is no way to guarantee such an outcome over time. So it seems your objection is based on a utopian view of possibilities.

He said that back in October. These days, he is more concerned to appease the Dearborn Ilk.

 

[lpetrich]

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "Frst.Sergant Marom Harush of the 9264 battalion: ..." / X

Frst.Sergant Marom Harush of the 9264 battalion:

“What is needed here is another Nakba…. like in 1948...when we expelled entire villages and established Jewish cities on their ruins. we must do the same now”

Full post below:
“On the 7th Oct, anyone who hadn't realized that we are facing absolute evil understood it. There's literally one side that is absolute good and one side that is absolute evil. Just as in '48 we were confident in the righteousness of our path and did what was necessary for our continued existence, like expelling entire villages and establishing Jewish cities on their ruins (Ashdod, Ashkelon, North Tel Aviv, and more), we must do the same now. We need to return to our Jewish identity and consciousness, believe in the righteousness of our cause, and understand that the solution against barbaric and murderous Islam is only through taking land.

What is needed here is another "Nakba." Expulsion Conquest Settlement This is the formula. There is no other solution”

“Conquest, expulsion, and settlement. .. Let the entire Arab world for generations know that on the day the Arabs of Gaza rose against Israel, they received another Nakba. There is no forgiveness for the Palestinian "people" and no second chance”

Post:

Conquest, expulsion, and settlement. Any other solution is just a band-aid for a wound it cannot heal. Let the entire Arab world for generations know that on the day the Arabs of Gaza rose against Israel, they received another Nakba. There is no forgiveness for the Palestinian "people" and no second chance. Only this way can we ensure Israel's security for generations to come

Bragging about his predecessors expelling Palestinians? Wanting to do something similar?

 

[laughing dog]

President Biden explicitly said Hamas would not be in power. Of course, there was no detail and there is no way to guarantee such an outcome over time. So it seems your objection is based on a utopian view of possibilities.

He said that back in October. These days, he is more concerned to appease the Dearborn Ilk.

He said it with the current plan that Israel says it is okay with the broad framework.

 

[Derec]

Who cares about that idiot Sinwar since if he wasn't in control of the Evil Idiot Brigade, then some other asshole would be in charge of them.

Make no mistake - Sinwar is an evil villain, but he is no idiot. And somebody else would be in charge, but would he be as effective? In any case, he needs to go, and should never have been released in the first place. The Shalit deal was the biggest blunder of Bibi's career until the intelligence failures of 10/7.

Also, you and Loren claim that Israel has killed tens of thousands of Hamas and since that is out of 40,000, these people are being killed off or rather, it's a numbers game. If 1000 got released but then 20,000 are killed, that's a net loss of 19,000 Hamas.

I think the last numbers given by Israel were ~16k, but that was a while ago. Since then there were skirmishes, but not much in terms of major operations, since Biden pressured Israel to downscale the Rafah operation. So maybe ~18k terror fighters killed, let's say equal number wounded severely enough that they are hors de combat for a while. So ~36k. But that's not just Hamas, but also allied groups like Islamic Jihad and PFLP (at whose conference Rashida Tlaib was speaking). The total before 10/7 was probably ~60k rather than ~40k.
Still, more than half of the fighting force destroyed in 8 months is not bad, but a lot still needs to be done.

Who cares again about what Hamas will say in the future since they will lose leverage when they have far fewer hostages and we know the ceasefire likely will not last anyway.

As long as they have some hostages, they maintain leverage. That's why they will never agree to release all of them, except for an exorbitant price not even a Labour PM would accept.

Thus, those "100s of terrorists" are later going to face the severe risk of death and there will be more negotiation over more hostage releases later. The immediate goal should be to maximize hostage release and minimize civilian death, but since Israel is still in control of Gaza even if it withdraws out of populated areas such as Rafah, it still has leverage and Hamas is still at risk.

Most of the >1000 terrorists released in 2011 are still alive and kicking. It's not that easy to hunt them down once they are free.

 

[Derec]

Bragging about his predecessors expelling Palestinians? Wanting to do something similar?

Since when do sergeants dictate policy? Other than your parasocial girlfriend Sergeant Sandy, of course ...

 

[Derec]

He said it with the current plan that Israel says it is okay with the broad framework.

I must have missed it.
[citation needed]

 

[Arctish]

And your point is...?

That the plan Biden is pushing is proposing a "permanent" ceasefire without Hamas being removed from power.

So, a non sequitur.

No wonder it made no sense in the context of the posts you were responding to.

 

[Arctish]

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "Frst.Sergant Marom Harush of the 9264 battalion: ..." / X

Frst.Sergant Marom Harush of the 9264 battalion:

“What is needed here is another Nakba…. like in 1948...when we expelled entire villages and established Jewish cities on their ruins. we must do the same now”

Full post below:
“On the 7th Oct, anyone who hadn't realized that we are facing absolute evil understood it. There's literally one side that is absolute good and one side that is absolute evil. Just as in '48 we were confident in the righteousness of our path and did what was necessary for our continued existence, like expelling entire villages and establishing Jewish cities on their ruins (Ashdod, Ashkelon, North Tel Aviv, and more), we must do the same now. We need to return to our Jewish identity and consciousness, believe in the righteousness of our cause, and understand that the solution against barbaric and murderous Islam is only through taking land.

What is needed here is another "Nakba." Expulsion Conquest Settlement This is the formula. There is no other solution”

“Conquest, expulsion, and settlement. .. Let the entire Arab world for generations know that on the day the Arabs of Gaza rose against Israel, they received another Nakba. There is no forgiveness for the Palestinian "people" and no second chance”

Post:

Conquest, expulsion, and settlement. Any other solution is just a band-aid for a wound it cannot heal. Let the entire Arab world for generations know that on the day the Arabs of Gaza rose against Israel, they received another Nakba. There is no forgiveness for the Palestinian "people" and no second chance. Only this way can we ensure Israel's security for generations to come

Bragging about his predecessors expelling Palestinians? Wanting to do something similar?

Even worse.

Bragging about his predecessors murdering thousands as they forcibly removed hundreds of thousands in order to create lebensraum for their religious ethno-state, but don't anyone dare compare them to Nazis because: No, U!

 

[laughing dog]

He said it with the current plan that Israel says it is okay with the broad framework.

I must have missed it.
[citation needed]

From Full Text of Biden Speech

I want to give an update on my efforts to end the crisis in Gaza.

For the past several months, my negotiators of foreign policy, intelligence community, and the like have been relentlessly focused not just on a ceasefire that would eve- — that would inevitably be fragile and temporary but on a durable end to the war. That’s been the focus: a durable end to this war.

One that brings all the hostages home, ensures Israel’s security, creates a better “day after” in Gaza without Hamas in power, and sets the stage for a political settlement that provides a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Biden is not trying to appease Rashida Tlaib,

I said the Rashida Tlaib wing, especially the antisemitic feathers on the far left wingtip of the Democratic base.

Biden isn't doing that because of anti-semitism--you are using ad homs to poison the well.

he's trying desperately to navigate a complex issue and find a path somewhere in the middle between two extremes that both result in unacceptable amounts of death and destruction.

"Somewhere in the middle" again reminds me of that John Kerry cartoon I posted upthread.

Your cartoon is dumb--somewhere in the middle of extremes is often a good place to be.

WWII resulted in huge amounts of death and destruction. It would still have been wrong to stop shot of victory and leave Nazis in power.

The Nazis were uniformed and it was the whole country that was at war but Hamas is using urban guerilla tactics and so that is a bad analogy. A better analogy is Viet Nam.

Finding good middle-ground solutions may be difficult, but killing 100,000 Gazans is not the way to go according to way more people than merely

How many Germans died in WWII? Including civilians, including children? War is hell, but let's not forget who started this one. Just like we should not forget that Germany started WWII.

This isn't a traditional war but instead it's throwing a big net around civilian populations hoping to hit Hamas. An analogy to Nazi Germany with military bases, uniforms, obvious institutional support like factories and armories is not a good analogy.

Rashida Tlaib who essentially has no political power.

Tlaib is a congresswoman, so she obviously has some political power. But I wasn't just talking about her, but about all her Ilk.
You know, the types yelling "Death to America" in Dearbornistan.

Deplorable!

Tlaib essentially has no political power. It's ridiculous to say she holds sway with Biden.

You skipped over the actual technical detail of phase 1 which is NOT a permanent ceasefire, but instead a ceasefire and moving Israeli troops out of POPULATED areas in Gaza. In other words, the troops are still there close by during phase 1. This is the best bet to get more hostages as a ceasefire and talks has shown to be WAY MORE effective at doing so.

But this is only the first phase. And note that only ~30 hostages would be released in exchange for 100s of Palestinian terrorists.

The small number of Palestinian prisoners released is insignificant since they can be killed later and anyway even if not, the immediate goal is to get the hostages out.

All this later speculation of a phase 2 below is something that might not even happen, not because it is not part of the proposal but instead because Israel and Palestinians hardly can keep a ceasefire:

It's not exactly speculation, it's part of the framework Biden is pushing.

No, it's speculation, since the moving to phase 2 requires the ceasefire to remain in place, which it might not given past patterns. However, we can predict easily that a ceasefire and negotiated prisoner exchange would be successful because that also is a pattern.

During the second phase, it is up to Israel and Gaza to negotiate. The further along in the phases etc, the more dynamic, unknown, and frankly hard to keep to the proposal it will be. I don't believe they will be able to keep a ceasefire anyway and so some other kind of international intervention or just a NEW PLAN may be necessary. And none of that is relevant because the immediate need is to maximize hostage release while minimizing civilian deaths.

How is the small number of hostages to be released in Phase 1, "maximizing" anything?

BECAUSE THEY WON'T BE DEAD.

That is a moronic idea that since Hamas would never accept,

It is the only idea that would lead to a lasting peace. Call it the "German Model".

You can call it whatever you want, but it's an idiotic non-starter way to negotiate. It does nothing to help the hostages.

would result in more deaths of both Gazan civilians and eventually the hostages.

It is questionable how many hostages are still alive even now. Last time there were talks about a ceasefire deal, Hamas talked about "dead or alive" hostages to be released. There is also the issue of hostages being held by different factions such as Islamic Jihad.

Yes, this shit should have been done sooner. The longer you delay, the more chance hostages will not remain alive. They can be killed by Hamas directly or killed by Israel directly by accident or indirectly through policies like starving Gaza.

We can observe from the past interactions between Israel and Hamas that the best course of action to get hostages released is to negotiate for hostage release, not useless ultimatums.

The more Hamas is given for hostages, the more incentive they and other terror groups have to take hostages again.

You are playing a temporary game since the consequences can still be there later in any kind of cost-benefit analysis. The immediate need now is a return of hostages.

Any of those things that could be non-starters in a current negotiation can be forced later on after Hamas gives up its leverage, i.e. the hostages. Ergo, having them give up leverage (and Israeli lives) is the immediate need. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I do not think Hamas and other terror groups will ever agree to give up all hostages, as they want that leverage.

That's a dumb meme since they've already negotiated successfully and not negotiating has resulted in tons of civilian deaths, including hostages.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israel confirms deaths of four more hostages in Gaza

Israel's military says UK-Israeli Nadav Popplewell and three others "were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there".

www.bbc.com

IDF spokesman Rear Adm Daniel Hagari said intelligence gathered in recent weeks had led to the assessment.

"We assess that the four of them were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there against Hamas," he said, without giving further details.

Last month, Hamas claimed that Nadav Popplewell had died in an Israeli strike in April. The UK Foreign Office said it was investigating, but there was no confirmation of his death until now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli leader Netanyahu faces growing pressure at home after Biden's Gaza proposal

Israel’s prime minister faces growing pressure after U.S. President Joe Biden described a proposed agreement to end the fighting in Gaza.

apnews.com

Biden is desperately trying to appease the Rashida Tlaib (who spoke at a PFLP-sponsored anti-Israel conference) wing of the Democratic Party. It's disgusting and pathertic!

Biden is not trying to appease Rashida Tlaib, he's trying desperately to navigate a complex issue and find a path somewhere in the middle between two extremes that both result in unacceptable amounts of death and destruction. Finding good middle-ground solutions may be difficult, but killing 100,000 Gazans is not the way to go according to way more people than merely Rashida Tlaib who essentially has no political power.

The average person has little understanding of the complexities of the situation and thus is not a good judge of right and wrong.

Before, he recognized the necessity of defeating Hamas. Now he wants a "permanent" (i.e. until Hamas decides to break it) ceasefire deal that
- frees only some of the hostages in exchange for 100s of terrorists in Israeli prisons.

You skipped over the actual technical detail of phase 1 which is NOT a permanent ceasefire, but instead a ceasefire and moving Israeli troops out of POPULATED areas in Gaza. In other words, the troops are still there close by during phase 1. This is the best bet to get more hostages as a ceasefire and talks has shown to be WAY MORE effective at doing so.

You have it backwards. Talks have been shown to lead to extremely one-sided deals that end up hurting Israel. To stop shooting while Hamas still has hostages is a major victory for Hamas and will ensure more 10/7s.

During the second phase, it is up to Israel and Gaza to negotiate. The further along in the phases etc, the more dynamic, unknown, and frankly hard to keep to the proposal it will be. I don't believe they will be able to keep a ceasefire anyway and so some other kind of international intervention or just a NEW PLAN may be necessary. And none of that is relevant because the immediate need is to maximize hostage release while minimizing civilian deaths.

In other words, there's no answer.

Biden should be steadfast and tell Hamas. Either you agree to
- free all hostages immediately, no exceptions, at a ratio no worse than the one from November. Furthermore, no prisoners serving life sentences may be part of the deal
- Hamas leadership must surrender unconditionally to be tried for their crimes.
- All UNRWA schools should be investigated for spreading Hamas propaganda in schools. A fundamental curriculum change will be part of the broader de-Hamasification (similar to the de-Nazification in Germany).

That is a moronic idea that since Hamas would never accept, would result in more deaths of both Gazan civilians and eventually the hostages. We can observe from the past interactions between Israel and Hamas that the best course of action to get hostages released is to negotiate for hostage release, not useless ultimatums. Any of those things that could be non-starters in a current negotiation can be forced later on after Hamas gives up its leverage, i.e. the hostages. Ergo, having them give up leverage (and Israeli lives) is the immediate need. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

So it's victory to the most evil.

 

[ZiprHead]

Israel confirms deaths of four more hostages in Gaza

Israel's military says UK-Israeli Nadav Popplewell and three others "were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there".

www.bbc.com

IDF spokesman Rear Adm Daniel Hagari said intelligence gathered in recent weeks had led to the assessment.

"We assess that the four of them were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there against Hamas," he said, without giving further details.

Last month, Hamas claimed that Nadav Popplewell had died in an Israeli strike in April. The UK Foreign Office said it was investigating, but there was no confirmation of his death until now.

My guess is Hamas wanted to bug out and just killed them instead of taking them with them.

 

[ZiprHead]

The average person has little understanding of the complexities of the situation and thus is not a good judge of right and wrong.

Sez the average person.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "[@tamerqdh] unveils alarming footage depicting Israeli soldiers burning Quran book within a mosque in Gaza.
The video captures a soldier tossing the Quran into flames as the mosque is set ablaze. (vid link)" / X
Would that soldier like it if someone burned a copy of the Tanakh in front of him? That's what Jews call Old Testament or Hebrew Bible.

So what? Soldiers are going to sometimes do disrespectful things to the people trying to kill them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

he's trying desperately to navigate a complex issue and find a path somewhere in the middle between two extremes that both result in unacceptable amounts of death and destruction.

"Somewhere in the middle" again reminds me of that John Kerry cartoon I posted upthread.

Your cartoon is dumb--somewhere in the middle of extremes is often a good place to be.

His cartoon is a reasonable summation of the situation.

WWII resulted in huge amounts of death and destruction. It would still have been wrong to stop shot of victory and leave Nazis in power.

The Nazis were uniformed and it was the whole country that was at war but Hamas is using urban guerilla tactics and so that is a bad analogy. A better analogy is Viet Nam.

Hamas completely controls Gaza and has widespread popular support.

Finding good middle-ground solutions may be difficult, but killing 100,000 Gazans is not the way to go according to way more people than merely

How many Germans died in WWII? Including civilians, including children? War is hell, but let's not forget who started this one. Just like we should not forget that Germany started WWII.

This isn't a traditional war but instead it's throwing a big net around civilian populations hoping to hit Hamas. An analogy to Nazi Germany with military bases, uniforms, obvious institutional support like factories and armories is not a good analogy.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

We can observe from the past interactions between Israel and Hamas that the best course of action to get hostages released is to negotiate for hostage release, not useless ultimatums.

The more Hamas is given for hostages, the more incentive they and other terror groups have to take hostages again.

You are playing a temporary game since the consequences can still be there later in any kind of cost-benefit analysis. The immediate need now is a return of hostages.

The problem here is front-loaded agreements. It's become the standard way to harm Israel. Pressure Israel into making an agreement which is reasonable on the face but in which the Palestinians get their thing first. Then they break it. In this case, it's the IDF out of Gaza.

That's a dumb meme since they've already negotiated successfully and not negotiating has resulted in tons of civilian deaths, including hostages.

They have made extremely one-sided deals. They know that's not possible in this case because the demands for the hostages will be more than Israel can give.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israel confirms deaths of four more hostages in Gaza

Israel's military says UK-Israeli Nadav Popplewell and three others "were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there".

www.bbc.com

IDF spokesman Rear Adm Daniel Hagari said intelligence gathered in recent weeks had led to the assessment.

"We assess that the four of them were killed while together in the area of Khan Younis during our operation there against Hamas," he said, without giving further details.

Last month, Hamas claimed that Nadav Popplewell had died in an Israeli strike in April. The UK Foreign Office said it was investigating, but there was no confirmation of his death until now.

My guess is Hamas wanted to bug out and just killed them instead of taking them with them.

That is possible. It seems if it were the case, it'd likely be done by certain weapons and at close range. Certain other weapons would be responsible (again, most likely) if Israel were responsible. So, in the likely scenario, recovery of bodies would tell the story of who did it. Then, it's also likely that if it were Hamas, Israel would have absolutely no reason not to say it is Hamas in its reporting of it by the military spokesperson. So, going backward, it seems like a significant chance it was not Hamas that did it because it'd likely be obvious it was them and then Israel would say so. But of course, I cannot be sure either way.

In any case, these types of scenarios of finding the deceased hostages and not being able to tell who killed them were predictable from the get-go. From the beginning, it was claimed that Israel would bomb Hamas into the Stone Age so they gave up the hostages.

Here is how I expressed what I think most of us actually thought:
Oct 12, 2023

It doesn't seem very practical either. Suppose they inadvertently bomb the hostages. If they are avoiding that, then wouldn't they be bombing non-military targets? Even if they don't bomb the hostages, what if Hamas starts killing them, showing photos? Hamas could say stop or claim Israel is bombing the hostages. It isn't clear to me that Israel wants to bomb Gaza into the Stone Age and following that send in massive ground troops and tanks for recovery of hostage remains, but that seems to be the direction.