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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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I can't imagine attacking a refugee camp being anything but a war crime.

Can you imagine placing a military installation, complete with weapons stockpiles and missile launching platforms in a refugee camp as a war crime?

You know, the war crime that is causing so much suffering and death amongst both the Israelis and Palestinians?
Tom
 
I can't imagine attacking a refugee camp being anything but a war crime.

Can you imagine placing a military installation, complete with weapons stockpiles and missile launching platforms in a refugee camp as a war crime?

You know, the war crime that is causing so much suffering and death amongst both the Israelis and Palestinians?
Tom
Don't think anyone is going to say Hamas is in the right using such a location to stage themselves. Hamas has no moral high ground.

The question is, did Israel gain anything strategically viable that made firing missiles at a refugee camp worth it? We didn't bomb five neighborhoods in Pakistan to capture/kill bin Laden.
 
Don't think anyone is going to say Hamas is in the right using such a location to stage themselves. Hama
Nevertheless, you referred to Israeli attacks on military installations as war crimes.

It's the Palestinians who require that Israel respond to attacks that way, not the Israelis.

The war crimes are almost, but not quite, all from Hamas. And they may as well have targeted Israeli water and power plants, supplying Gazans, as targeting innocent civilians.

Hamas chose the current situation. Iran helped, but Hamas is the government. They are the 1000# gorilla in the room.
Tom
 
Don't think anyone is going to say Hamas is in the right using such a location to stage themselves. Hama
Nevertheless, you referred to Israeli attacks on military installations as war crimes.
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
It's the Palestinians who require that Israel respond to attacks that way, not the Israelis.
The average Palestinian has a bit less control over Hamas than you seem to be under the impression they have.
The war crimes are almost, but not quite, all from Hamas.
Yes, and that is part of the problem, both what Hamas is doing, and what you seem to be suggesting to support.
Hamas chose the current situation. Iran helped, but Hamas is the government.
They are warlords, not a government, no one gave that longshot a try.

And none of this addressed the question I asked whether Israel's actions were worth the price. How many commanders of Hamas are there?
 
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom
 
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, after the Iron Curtain came down, wrote an article about the responsibility of the Russian people themselves concerning the camps and deaths under communism. He said they they had responsibility. They could not hide behind "It was the government/rulers", not them. They could have done something but did not. Individually they were powerless but collectively they did had power. Yes there would have been causalities. But they never really tried after the end of the Russian civil war.
In Gaza it is the same. there are far more Gazans than Hamas. Yes, Hamas have weapons but unless Hamas are prepared to kill everyone around them they can be stopped. If the residents do not want a munitions dump in a refugee camp then they must stop Hamas setting it up. But it appears that the Gazans are happy enough with the current situation.
(Wish i could find that article again)
 
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

Does Hamas install stationary missile launching installations on hospital roofs? That's the first time I've seen that claim. Are there pictures? Do you have a source to at least attribute to the allegation? Forgive me, but it sounds like a scenario that you are imagining. Can you link to an article where someone claims there was such an installation on the roof of any hospital in Gaza? I've searched for one, but all I come up with are a gazillion links over allegations that Israeli missiles have or have not struck hospitals.


If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Doctors and nurses are supposed to chase away armed Hamas terrorists? I have trouble picturing in my mind how that would work, but I imagine a lot of people would be fleeing that hospital if they knew of a missile launcher on the roof. My understanding of most of the Hamas rocket and missile launchers was that they were mobile and on the street. They could be moved near hospitals and densely populated areas for the launch, but then moved away to prevent being retaliated against. It seems to me that part of the Hamas strategy is to get Israel to do exactly what it is doing--target facilities and areas that are war crimes by international law. If so, the strategy seems to be working.


Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom

I agree that Hamas terrorists are Palestinians, but it is obvious that most Palestinians being killed did not choose to be made targets. I also wonder why you are so convinced that there are missile launchers on the roofs of hospitals in Gaza. Or that reference to a missile platform in the Jabalya camp? I can't find anything to corroborate that, although Hamas may have stored weapons near or under that camp.
 
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, after the Iron Curtain came down, wrote an article about the responsibility of the Russian people themselves concerning the camps and deaths under communism. He said they they had responsibility. They could not hide behind "It was the government/rulers", not them. They could have done something but did not. Individually they were powerless but collectively they did had power. Yes there would have been causalities. But they never really tried after the end of the Russian civil war.
In Gaza it is the same. there are far more Gazans than Hamas. Yes, Hamas have weapons but unless Hamas are prepared to kill everyone around them they can be stopped. If the residents do not want a munitions dump in a refugee camp then they must stop Hamas setting it up. But it appears that the Gazans are happy enough with the current situation.
(Wish i could find that article again)
By your reasoning, which ignores the problem of initiating collective action, Israeli people brat responsibility for IDF war crimes.
 
"Military installations"? That is a stretch.
A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, after the Iron Curtain came down, wrote an article about the responsibility of the Russian people themselves concerning the camps and deaths under communism. He said they they had responsibility. They could not hide behind "It was the government/rulers", not them. They could have done something but did not. Individually they were powerless but collectively they did had power. Yes there would have been causalities. But they never really tried after the end of the Russian civil war.
In Gaza it is the same. there are far more Gazans than Hamas. Yes, Hamas have weapons but unless Hamas are prepared to kill everyone around them they can be stopped. If the residents do not want a munitions dump in a refugee camp then they must stop Hamas setting it up. But it appears that the Gazans are happy enough with the current situation.
(Wish i could find that article again)
By your reasoning, which ignores the problem of initiating collective action, Israeli people brat responsibility for IDF war crimes.
I have never claimed otherwise. War crimes are war crimes.
 
As I suspected Biden is losing support among younger democrats because of his unconditional support of Israel.

A consequence of the attack and Israel's harsh response is there is now media discussion about long running Palestinian grievances. People are discriminating between Hamas actions and the rights issues of Palestinians. Reject Hams but support Palestinian issues with Israel.

And of course there are Jews who coflate opposition to Israeli polices with antisemitism.

Support is also dropping for Netanyahu. From looking at Israeli English language media in the past I'd say Israel is not entirely extreme Zionists. There is opposition to settlements, we just never hear it over here. What we have heard for decades is Palestinians bad-Israel victim. All Palestinians are terrorists.
 
I think that a lot of Israelis consider Prime Minister Netanyahu to be criminally negligent in not doing much to stop the October 7 attacks before they happened. Surely he would have gotten a lot of intelligence briefings about what Hamas was was preparing to do.
 
It has been reported that the conditions were reported, but who knows.
 
Says who?
You?
Says common sense.
The One State solution couldn't possibly be the Union of Israel and Palestine? It couldn't be a secular state with equal rights guaranteed in its Constitution and enforced by its courts? It has to be winner-take-all ethnic cleansing and genocide?
That's exactly what would happen in reality. You have Palestinians who support Hamas either as a majority or close to majority. You have other extremist factions like Palestinian Islamic Jihad with supporters. Even the supposedly moderate Fatah keeps a terror wing - Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. The most popular Palestinian politician, Marwan Barghouti, is a Fatah member who is serving five life sentences from his terrorist activities in the early 2000s. How do you imagine a "secular state with equal rights" developing from that exactly?

Perhaps in your worldview, but not in everyone else's.
You believing that it is possible does not make it so.
I doubt Tlaib is that naïve. She knows what "one state solution" is shorthand for. Even if she didn't, that would just make her a useful idiot for the Hamas side.
 
Israel to perform Christ miracle by providing aid to 2 million Gazans using only 80 trucks. Housing, food, medical, water needs using only 80 trucks for 2 million Gazans would easily surpass Christ serving over one thousand people using just two loaves of bread and a couple boxes of frozen fish sticks!
Why isn't Hamas taking care of its population?
As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies
For the same reasons the IDF kills the civilians on Gaza: they just don’t care.
 
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Derec and Loren Pechtel clearly want to believe that she is a supporter of Hamas, even though there is no evidence of it in her statements.
She is certainly carrying water for Hamas, either knowingly and willingly, or else as a useful idiot.
Her insistence on believing the Hamas story about the hospital bombing is case in point.
There seems to be no middle ground for them. Either she supports Israel, or she supports Hamas.
Of course there is middle ground. Like the other eight fauxgressive Dems who refused to vote for the pro-Israel, anti-Hamas resolution. But Tlaib is way beyond the likes of AOC or Cori Bush.

If she opposes treating Palestinians as unavoidable collateral damage in order to destroy Hamas, then she must favor treating murdered and abducted Israelis in Hamas's war against Israel as their side's "collateral damage".
Every war has collateral damage. 10k civilians were killed to get ISIS out of Mosul - a single Iraqi city. How many civilians were killed or injured during the entire campaign to destroy the ISIS Caliphate? Why this hyperfocus on collateral damage only when Israel is defending itself, but not in any other wars?

All I can find in her statements is the opinion that no collateral damage can be justified in the pursuit of either side's violent goals. How many innocent lives must be destroyed for either side to reach what it considers a final solution? The violence cannot solve the problem. It is the problem.
Warfare destroyed the ISIS Caliphate. Warfare destroyed Nazi Germany. The idea that warfare is never the solution, or that civilian casualties are never acceptable is a an extremely naïve one. And also note that this objection is raised only when Israel is defending itself against the genocidal Hamas. I wonder why.

"Refugee camp" is a misnomer. It started as a refugee camp, 75 years ago, but now it is a full-fledged city. The reason why we still have places called "refugee camps" in Palestinian areas is the peculiar way UNRWA is defining Palestinian (and only Palestinian) refugees - as a heritable attribute passed dowm in perpetuity. Most of the so-called "refugees" living in the Jabalya, Beach and other "camps" in Gaza had a great grandparent who was a refugee 75 years ago, that's it.
Jabalya "camp" is also a Hamas stronghold. No wonder they have subterranean presence there, which is what IDF targeted. I also suspect, given the scale of destruction, that there was a weapons cache that exploded on the site as well. Hamas loves to keep weapons and explosives in residential areas - a war crime in itself.
 
Warfare destroyed the ISIS Caliphate. Warfare destroyed Nazi Germany. The idea that warfare is never the solution, or that civilian casualties are never acceptable is a an extremely naïve one. And also note that this objection is raised only when Israel is defending itself against the genocidal Hamas. I wonder why.
Because people do raise the objection. I don’t wonder why you don’t pay attention.
 
Sure, Hamas most likely was there, taking advantage of the protection a refugee camp is supposed to provide refugees (you know... refuge).
Again, these "camps" are not real camps. They are full-fledged cities that started as refugee camps 75 years ago. Blame UNRWA and the unwillingness of Palestinian society to fully integrate descendens of refugees.
But you are right. Hamas has a great deal of presence there.
But it is still a refugee camp! I can't imagine attacking a refugee camp being anything but a war crime. The term war crime sometimes can be exaggerated, but a refugee camp can't possibly be on the list of acceptable military targets as far as treaties are concerned.
You imagine a real refugee camp, like found in Kenya or at Cox' Bazaar in Bangladesh. But it's just a city that is called a "refugee camp" for historic reasons. And for propaganda reasons, I guess too judging from your reaction to the strike,
Sure, the Gazan officials will exaggerate the death toll, but is 50 to 100 dead REFUGEES a "tragedy of war" or a complete and utter disregard for civilian life?
Again, not real refugees. How many of the 50-100 are the Hamas fighters including the commander Ibrahim Biari?
And how do you propose to destroy underground tunnels, weapons caches etc. without disturbing what's on top of it?
Civilians displaced in the camp by the actions of the Israeli military.
They are not "displaced in the camp". They've been living there, most of them all their lives.
Was targeting another "senior" Hamas official worth the lives of many refugees lost? How in the heck can anyone expect such an attack not to breed extremism and a dozen more future "senior" Hamas officials?
If Hamas is not destroyed, it will rearm and rebuild. The only chance at peace is a complete victory over Hamas.
And civilians whom Hamas uses as human shields are on Hamas. Doubly so because this whole war was started by Hamas, in the most horrific way with the 10/7 massacre. Lest we forget how we got here in the first place.
 
Seems very right-wing. Just like
You may call them "right wing" but they get a lot of support, tacit and otherwise, from the left wing. Not only in the US and Europe, but also from Latin American leftists like Maduro, Boric (Acid) and Petro.
 
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