Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

In 1967 Jordan was one of the nations that tried to invade Israel. At the time Jordan controlled the area that is now known as Palestine. It was only after Israel kicked their ass multiple times that the Arab aggressor states gave up. Then, for all practical purposes, the PLO eventually became Hamas.

Disagree. The PLO didn't become Hamas, the flag was passed. But the money continued, that's both necessary and sufficient to continue the fighting.

 

[bilby]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows.

That's exactly how I felt about the Irish 'Troubles'. The IRA were never going away, the border between the Republic and the Six Counties would always be heavily militarised, and terririst attacks in England and against British military forces around the world would would continue to happen, with occasional flare-ups, interspersed with cooling-off periods.

They ended when the money went away.

Well, that ignorant and unfounded belief certainly has the benefit of simplicity.

Do you have an explanation for why the Americans with Irish backgrounds who were funding the IRA suddenly all decided to stop, just at the exact moment that Mo Mowlam engaged in genuine dialogue with the IRA leadership?

Or is this opinion simply a statement of faith based on a circular argument?

 

[Arctish]

I’m just wondering where all of us Americans of European descent are going to live, after we rightfully return all the land once inhabited by the Native American tribes back to them.
We won’t all fit, in Gaza…

FYI the right to dominate ancestral lands is a Nazi thing to say. But wokes somehow forget that.

Everyone's ancestors was an asshole at some point and the reason you are alive at all is because your ancestors killed and opressed someone at some point. Nobody is an ancestral angel.

Peace is reached by setting aside past grievances, agreeing that it probably wasn't great, what was done, (no matter what it was) and validating each others pain.

So Netanyahu is a Nazi?

Peace is reached by setting aside old grievances, not creating new ones, being honest about your past actions and relationships, doing what you can to promote justice and fairness, and letting other people prosper even if you could keep all that prosperity for yourself.

 

[Arctish]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

Rabin was advocating for official Israel recognition of a State of Palestine on the land outside of those borders which is why the rightwing faction, of which Netanyahu was a prominent leader, denounced him as a traitor to Zionism and one of them murdered him.

In 1967 Jordan was one of the nations that tried to invade Israel. At the time Jordan controlled the area that is now known as Palestine. It was only after Israel kicked their ass multiple times that the Arab aggressor states gave up. Then, for all practical purposes, the PLO eventually became Hamas.

The British assigned sovereignty over the West Bank to Kingdom of Jordan when it was abandoning the British Mandate for Palestine.

The Kingdom of Jordan officially annexed the land in 1950. The Israelis advanced into the area during the 1967 War and placed it under military occupation.

The Jordanians ceded the West Bank to the Palestinians in 1988.

The Oslo Accords recognized large swathes of the West Bank and Gaza as being under Palestinian civil administration and made arrangements for the Occupied Territories to be sovereign Palestinian territory by the end of the peace process. Rightwing Israelis balked at the proposal that non-Jews would govern land that had been under the rule of Jewish kings thousands of years ago, and they stopped the Accords in their tracks when Rabin was murdered.

The PLO never became Hamas. The PLO and Hamas fought a brief civil war in Gaza when Hamas got slightly more votes in the only election held there. They are, at best, rivals.

 

[robnisch]

View attachment 52093

This is the first I've heard of this. The strike that's been in the news was against Houthi government officials. Has there been another that went unreported?

They are new to the news business. Seem to be pro Arab. But I would not rule out Isreal doing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 52093

This is the first I've heard of this. The strike that's been in the news was against Houthi government officials. Has there been another that went unreported?

They are new to the news business. Seem to be pro Arab. But I would not rule out Isreal doing it.

If they are "new to the news business" they are likely a disinformation source.

 

[Arctish]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

I asked you to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, Loren.

You're doing your usual shuffle to try and squiggle away taking the goalposts with you.

You made the claim that "[a]ll the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land".

Support it.

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

Also, I don't knowingly listen to revisionism or incorporate it into my thinking which is why I don't believe your bullshit and I keep asking you to identify your sources. And while I am glad you provided a source for the new point you're trying to make, that source is making assertions about the Camp David peace deal that are unsupported.

As you surely know by now, the two biggest reasons for the failure of the Camp David conference were

1) it was an attempt by Ehud Barak to replace the Oslo Accords with a deal that wouldn't result in him being called as a traitor to Zionism and/or assassinated like Rabin was, while Arafat wanted the deal they already had, and

2) nothing was written down except random notes (Barak's orders, to prevent leaking of details that might inflame the faction that chanted "Death to Rabin" for agreeing to the Oslo Accords) which meant that no one can say for certain what was being offered by any party at any given time.