Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

In 1967 Jordan was one of the nations that tried to invade Israel. At the time Jordan controlled the area that is now known as Palestine. It was only after Israel kicked their ass multiple times that the Arab aggressor states gave up. Then, for all practical purposes, the PLO eventually became Hamas.

Disagree. The PLO didn't become Hamas, the flag was passed. But the money continued, that's both necessary and sufficient to continue the fighting.

 

[bilby]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows.

That's exactly how I felt about the Irish 'Troubles'. The IRA were never going away, the border between the Republic and the Six Counties would always be heavily militarised, and terririst attacks in England and against British military forces around the world would would continue to happen, with occasional flare-ups, interspersed with cooling-off periods.

They ended when the money went away.

Well, that ignorant and unfounded belief certainly has the benefit of simplicity.

Do you have an explanation for why the Americans with Irish backgrounds who were funding the IRA suddenly all decided to stop, just at the exact moment that Mo Mowlam engaged in genuine dialogue with the IRA leadership?

Or is this opinion simply a statement of faith based on a circular argument?

 

[Arctish]

I’m just wondering where all of us Americans of European descent are going to live, after we rightfully return all the land once inhabited by the Native American tribes back to them.
We won’t all fit, in Gaza…

FYI the right to dominate ancestral lands is a Nazi thing to say. But wokes somehow forget that.

Everyone's ancestors was an asshole at some point and the reason you are alive at all is because your ancestors killed and opressed someone at some point. Nobody is an ancestral angel.

Peace is reached by setting aside past grievances, agreeing that it probably wasn't great, what was done, (no matter what it was) and validating each others pain.

So Netanyahu is a Nazi?

Peace is reached by setting aside old grievances, not creating new ones, being honest about your past actions and relationships, doing what you can to promote justice and fairness, and letting other people prosper even if you could keep all that prosperity for yourself.

 

[Arctish]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

Rabin was advocating for official Israel recognition of a State of Palestine on the land outside of those borders which is why the rightwing faction, of which Netanyahu was a prominent leader, denounced him as a traitor to Zionism and one of them murdered him.

In 1967 Jordan was one of the nations that tried to invade Israel. At the time Jordan controlled the area that is now known as Palestine. It was only after Israel kicked their ass multiple times that the Arab aggressor states gave up. Then, for all practical purposes, the PLO eventually became Hamas.

The British assigned sovereignty over the West Bank to Kingdom of Jordan when it was abandoning the British Mandate for Palestine.

The Kingdom of Jordan officially annexed the land in 1950. The Israelis advanced into the area during the 1967 War and placed it under military occupation.

The Jordanians ceded the West Bank to the Palestinians in 1988.

The Oslo Accords recognized large swathes of the West Bank and Gaza as being under Palestinian civil administration and made arrangements for the Occupied Territories to be sovereign Palestinian territory by the end of the peace process. Rightwing Israelis balked at the proposal that non-Jews would govern land that had been under the rule of Jewish kings thousands of years ago, and they stopped the Accords in their tracks when Rabin was murdered.

The PLO never became Hamas. The PLO and Hamas fought a brief civil war in Gaza when Hamas got slightly more votes in the only election held there. They are, at best, rivals.

 

[robnisch]

View attachment 52093

This is the first I've heard of this. The strike that's been in the news was against Houthi government officials. Has there been another that went unreported?

They are new to the news business. Seem to be pro Arab. But I would not rule out Isreal doing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 52093

This is the first I've heard of this. The strike that's been in the news was against Houthi government officials. Has there been another that went unreported?

They are new to the news business. Seem to be pro Arab. But I would not rule out Isreal doing it.

If they are "new to the news business" they are likely a disinformation source.

 

[Arctish]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

I asked you to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, Loren.

You're doing your usual shuffle to try and squiggle away taking the goalposts with you.

You made the claim that "[a]ll the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land".

Support it.

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

Also, I don't knowingly listen to revisionism or incorporate it into my thinking which is why I don't believe your bullshit and I keep asking you to identify your sources. And while I am glad you provided a source for the new point you're trying to make, that source is making assertions about the Camp David peace deal that are unsupported.

As you surely know by now, the two biggest reasons for the failure of the Camp David conference were

1) it was an attempt by Ehud Barak to replace the Oslo Accords with a deal that wouldn't result in him being called as a traitor to Zionism and/or assassinated like Rabin was, while Arafat wanted the deal they already had, and

2) nothing was written down except random notes (Barak's orders, to prevent leaking of details that might inflame the faction that chanted "Death to Rabin" for agreeing to the Oslo Accords) which meant that no one can say for certain what was being offered by any party at any given time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

My point is that said ceding didn't happen.

 

[Arctish]

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

My point is that said ceding didn't happen.

I see you are trying to play the *It Never Happened* card. That won't work.

You made a claim about an opinion held by Palestinian factions. You are being asked to support your claim.

List the factions. Then provide the evidence that indicates each one holds the position you say they do.

I suggest starting with the largest faction. Information on that one will be the easiest to find.

 

[pood]

Israel today: “Gaza is burning.”

Hitler yesteryears: “Is Paris burning?”

How proud Israel must be today! They stand on the shoulders of a midget.

 

[DrZoidberg]

View attachment 52093

This is the first I've heard of this. The strike that's been in the news was against Houthi government officials. Has there been another that went unreported?

Apparently every Islamic terrorist is a journalist now.

Hamas has been accrediting journalists like crazy because in the west we try to avoid killing them.

I've stopped caring when Hamas accuses Israel for killing journalists. Every case I've looked up so far the "journalist" is on camera being a Hamas operative.

When the "primeminister" of Yemen was killed, it was the self proclaimed primeminister who got killed. He was just another Houthi Islamic terrorist leader responsible for raining rockets on Israel

 

[Harry Bosch]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

I asked you to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, Loren.

You're doing your usual shuffle to try and squiggle away taking the goalposts with you.

You made the claim that "[a]ll the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land".

Support it.

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

Also, I don't knowingly listen to revisionism or incorporate it into my thinking which is why I don't believe your bullshit and I keep asking you to identify your sources. And while I am glad you provided a source for the new point you're trying to make, that source is making assertions about the Camp David peace deal that are unsupported.

As you surely know by now, the two biggest reasons for the failure of the Camp David conference were

1) it was an attempt by Ehud Barak to replace the Oslo Accords with a deal that wouldn't result in him being called as a traitor to Zionism and/or assassinated like Rabin was, while Arafat wanted the deal they already had, and

2) nothing was written down except random notes (Barak's orders, to prevent leaking of details that might inflame the faction that chanted "Death to Rabin" for agreeing to the Oslo Accords) which meant that no one can say for certain what was being offered by any party at any given time.

I could be wrong in this (please correct me if I am); but I don't believe that any Palestinian have stated that they would be willing to give up right of return, even when traded for a sovereign state.

 

[Arctish]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

All the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land.

Support this claim.

List the Palestinian factions.

Then show us which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is a sentiment and goal alive and well among the Hamas and the government of that support them (see Iran). I've seen this retconned as a call to peaceful integration among Palestinians and Jews, but that's as disingenuous as Arafat's "ceding land" to Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is also the goal among the rightwing coalition Netanyahu leads. Smotrich publicly goes even farther, using a map that depicts Jordan and parts of Syria as part of Israel, evoking the "Both Sides" Zionist goals of a century ago.

The PLO had no authority to give land to anyone because it wasn't a government; it was a terrorist organization.

The very first, necessary step in implementing the Oslo Accords was the official recognition of a governing body in Palestine and that the PLO was in charge of it, therefore recognizing the legitimacy of both the Palestinian ancestral claims to the land and the authority of PLO diplomats to sit with Israeli diplomats and negotiate.

The PLO were terrorists. So were the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagenah terrorists who seized land and murdered and drove out non-Jews when they created the State of Israel. It's distasteful to recognize terrorists as legitimate government leaders but in Israel and Palestine, it had to happen.

The Oslo Accords divided up the area into three different sections (generally speaking). It wasn't about Arafat ceding land, it was an attempt to stop the violence.

It was an attempt to stop the violence by having clearly defined borders, with Israelis in charge of the Israel side and Palestinians in charge of the Palestine side.

Arafat, in his capacity as the leader of the PLO and therefore the officially recognized representative of all Palestinians, publicly declared that the Palestinians ceded the land inside of Israel's 1967 border to the State of Israel.

In Depth: Arafat Rejected Peace in 2000 | HonestReporting

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and

honestreporting.com

You're listening to revisionism.

I asked you to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, Loren.

You're doing your usual shuffle to try and squiggle away taking the goalposts with you.

You made the claim that "[a]ll the Palestinian factions consider all of Israel to be Palestinian land".

Support it.

Start by listing the Palestinian factions. Then provide evidence of which ones renounce the deal the PLO struck with the government of Israel that ceded all of the land inside the 1967 borders to the State of Israel.

Also, I don't knowingly listen to revisionism or incorporate it into my thinking which is why I don't believe your bullshit and I keep asking you to identify your sources. And while I am glad you provided a source for the new point you're trying to make, that source is making assertions about the Camp David peace deal that are unsupported.

As you surely know by now, the two biggest reasons for the failure of the Camp David conference were

1) it was an attempt by Ehud Barak to replace the Oslo Accords with a deal that wouldn't result in him being called as a traitor to Zionism and/or assassinated like Rabin was, while Arafat wanted the deal they already had, and

2) nothing was written down except random notes (Barak's orders, to prevent leaking of details that might inflame the faction that chanted "Death to Rabin" for agreeing to the Oslo Accords) which meant that no one can say for certain what was being offered by any party at any given time.

I could be wrong in this (please correct me if I am); but I don't believe that any Palestinian have stated that they would be willing to give up right of return, even when traded for a sovereign state.

They are not willing to surrender any of their Rights completely. It's unreasonable to expect that of any ethnic group, religious community, or segment of a population.

The Palestinian leadership have demonstrated a willingness to accept a token Return, though. Abbas was ready to compromise on Right of Return in 2008. Israeli PM Olmert offered to allow 5,000 to return. The Palestinians were offering to accept a number as low as 10,000, although some were pushing for a number as high as 60,000. That's still pretty paltry, btw, considering more than 750,000 people became refugees when Israel was founded. But it's anathema to people like Netanyahu who won't even concede that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are really citizens.

Anyway, the Right of Return was a condition of the recognition of the State of Israel so why should the Palestinians surrender it?

And why would anyone who isn't a racist have a problem with it?

 

[Tigers!]

The Palestinian leadership have demonstrated a willingness to accept a token Return, though. Abbas was ready to compromise on Right of Return in 2008. Israeli PM Olmert offered to allow 5,000 to return. The Palestinians were offering to accept a number as low as 10,000, although some were pushing for a number as high as 60,000. That's still pretty paltry, btw, considering more than 750,000 people became refugees when Israel was founded. But it's anathema to people like Netanyahu who won't even concede that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are really citizens.

Anyway, the Right of Return was a condition of the recognition of the State of Israel so why should the Palestinians surrender it?

And why would anyone who isn't a racist have a problem with it?

I do hope any right of return includes the 100s thousands of Jews who were forced out of their homes from the Atlantic Ocean to Pakistan. That cannot be racist now, can it?

 

[Arctish]

The Palestinian leadership have demonstrated a willingness to accept a token Return, though. Abbas was ready to compromise on Right of Return in 2008. Israeli PM Olmert offered to allow 5,000 to return. The Palestinians were offering to accept a number as low as 10,000, although some were pushing for a number as high as 60,000. That's still pretty paltry, btw, considering more than 750,000 people became refugees when Israel was founded. But it's anathema to people like Netanyahu who won't even concede that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are really citizens.

Anyway, the Right of Return was a condition of the recognition of the State of Israel so why should the Palestinians surrender it?

And why would anyone who isn't a racist have a problem with it?

I do hope any right of return includes the 100s thousands of Jews who were forced out of their homes from the Atlantic Ocean to Pakistan. That cannot be racist now, can it?

WTF kind of question is that?

The Rights of Refugees are not determined by race, religion, ethnicity, sex, gender, birthplace, point of origin, or any other similar characteristic.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows.

That's exactly how I felt about the Irish 'Troubles'. The IRA were never going away, the border between the Republic and the Six Counties would always be heavily militarised, and terririst attacks in England and against British military forces around the world would would continue to happen, with occasional flare-ups, interspersed with cooling-off periods.

They ended when the money went away.

Well, that ignorant and unfounded belief certainly has the benefit of simplicity.

Do you have an explanation for why the Americans with Irish backgrounds who were funding the IRA suddenly all decided to stop, just at the exact moment that Mo Mowlam engaged in genuine dialogue with the IRA leadership?

Or is this opinion simply a statement of faith based on a circular argument?

Loren is right.

IRA were funded by Gaddafi (Libya). Because Gaddafi wanted to fuck with the UK (as revenge for something USA did).

The Troubles (the name for this conflict) started in 1969 (well.. started the last time) and was violent but didn't, at first, use any advanced weaponry. American - Irish also funded IRA, but that wasn't enough money or weapons to make any difference. It's in the 1980'ies Gaddafi started sending huge amounts of arms to the IRA. Which changed the nature of the conflict. It's when that revenue stream ceased that IRA suddenly felt like making peace.

The Troubles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ireland–Libya relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gaddafi truly was a strange dictator. Weird hang ups and weird political plays.

The root of the conflict is that protestants (ethnically English) own all the good land in Ireland. English are traditionally protestant and Irish traditionally catholic. As the country industrialised and shifted away from an agrarian economy, this conflict was going to die out by itself. Another was that the aristocrats, (overwhelmingly English) owned large holdings in Ireland. After the noble privileges were cancelled in 1869 and the high inheritance tax destroyed the holdings of the British aristocracy, this conflict was going to evaporate. By the time Gaddaffi got involved the conflict was running on fumes, only based on old grievances. The underlying root of the conflict was gone.

 

[steve_bank]

It is effectively all over for Palestinians.

Biden repeatedly said 'we got your back(Israel)'. Before that Obama supplied weapons.

Trump agrees with what Israel is doing, or he is going along with it.

Netanyahu saw the opportunity afforded by the attack on Israel and is using it to fulfill the Zionist agenda.

Israel never wanted peace or a Palestinian state. A Palestinian state would give them international standing to address grievances, Israel loses control. If Israel had given citizenship to all Palestinians Jews would in the long run lose the majority.

The Palestinian fate was sealed at the founding of Israel.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In 1967 Jordan was one of the nations that tried to invade Israel. At the time Jordan controlled the area that is now known as Palestine. It was only after Israel kicked their ass multiple times that the Arab aggressor states gave up. Then, for all practical purposes, the PLO eventually became Hamas.

Disagree. The PLO didn't become Hamas, the flag was passed. But the money continued, that's both necessary and sufficient to continue the fighting.

PLO was mostly a vehicle by which it's leaders could enrich themselves. It started out as a Baathist Arab league club. So fascist. Over time slid over into the Soviet camp, so communist. In step with Egypt's Nasser. Another guy playing the super powers out against eachother to make bank. This era is full of these dictators/opportunists. When the Soviet folded, USA also lost interest in funding these kinds of guys.

When the cold war ended the PLO shifted to embezzling UN funds to Gaza. But when there was an election in Gaza it was revealed how fucking sick the Gazans were of the PLO's rampant corruption. They voted for Hamas. In hindsight that election was complete bullshit, because there were no real candidates. They were both kleptocratic bandits. As usual the Palestinian people got fucked over again.

The main difference between Hamas and PLO is where their money comes from.

It's interesting how cool Arabs are about US and Israeli strikes on Iran. It's obvious that Arabs are more worried about Iran than Israel/USA. Hamas taking power in Gaza was really bad news for the Middle-East

 

[DrZoidberg]

It is effectively all over for Palestinians.

Biden repeatedly said 'we got your back(Israel)'. Before that Obama supplied weapons.

Trump agrees with what Israel is doing, or he is going along with it.

Netanyahu saw the opportunity afforded by the attack on Israel and is using it to fulfill the Zionist agenda.

Zionist agenda? What is the zionist agenda? If you say anything other than safety for Jews, then you will sound like you are quoting the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

I don't think it's all over for the Palestinians. They're still fighting. They seem uniquely willing to sacrifice everything just to see the Jews suffer a bit. But Israel has such overwhelming force now, that I think it's just a matter of time.

Once Israel takes over Gaza I think they will take full control. Then Palestinians will have peace and stability. Israel can't do a worse job running the place than Hamas. Israel is not a corrupt country. It's a modern western state. I think Palestinians will prosper under Israeli rule. If they can manage to not blowing themselves up and attacking Israelis.

Israel have tried finding a Muslim country to take over Gaza. But nobody wants it. So I think they'll just have to run it themselves. And try to deprogram all the brainwashed Islamofascist fighters. Help them get proper jobs.

Israel never wanted peace or a Palestinian state.

What makes you think Israel doesn't want peace? Everything they've done since it's founding is to try to avoid war. All along while getting threats from the Arab nations. I don't think you understand how extreme the Arab rhetoric has been.

A Palestinian state would give them international standing to address grievances, Israel loses control.

What difference would them having a state make? This is what the UN is for? I don't know if you are aware of it, but in the UN the Muslim countries vote as a block, and always against Israel. How could the Palestinians possibly have had more of a platform from which to express their grievances?

I think people on the left, are in general, not aware how stacked the UN is against Israel. Israel ONLY has support by USA.

If Israel had given citizenship to all Palestinians Jews would in the long run lose the majority.

Yes, which is undesireable in a situation where most Palestinians wants to murder all Jews. We don't need to speculate on what Palestinians would vote for.

The current war suggests that Palestinians prefer war and suffering over peace.

The Palestinian fate was sealed at the founding of Israel.

We couldn't have known how extremely intransigent and beligerent the Arabs was going to be. I think that came as a shock to everyone.