Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Your defense is an idiotic “whataboutism”?

I don't think it's idiotic or whataboutism to point out that the current disaster is a combination of Islamists like Hamas both turning Gaza into a densely populated military installation and then attacking Israel.
Tom

As details come out about all the weapons and the incredibly extensive cave structures under Gaza, I wonder what heck kind of embargo Israel put on Gaza for all these years.

What we are seeing is how much of supposedly civilian use materials were diverted. Israel has been saying so for years, the world keeps seeing people's houses that are still rubble and demanding Israel let in more building supplies. We are seeing that Israel's claims were right.

 

[TomC]

We originally became involved in the mess in 1973

I had no idea 1948 was only 50 years ago.

This^^^^
The USA has been involved and funding the war since before there was a recognized Israel.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing exactly. I see Israel as a good secular democracy, especially by middle eastern standards. Happy to live in peace with their neighbors, if the Islamist terrorists would stop attacking them.
But the violent Islamists won't because their version of primitive authoritarian tribalism is much more violent than Jewish, even Zionist.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A ceasefire has been holding in Korea. I think Israel should spend the next seventy years, if necessary building trust with the Palestinian community.
You can't eliminate hate with 155mm rounds.

You have already bought into the Hamas story in saying that.

There is no issue of "building trust". The problem is the Iranian (and others) providing money for war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We originally became involved in the mess in 1973

I had no idea 1948 was only 50 years ago.

We weren't helping them in 48.

 

[TomC]

We originally became involved in the mess in 1973

I had no idea 1948 was only 50 years ago.

We weren't helping them in 48.

I don't believe that is true.
Israel certainly wouldn't exist if we hadn't supported Zionists in the UN.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Religious ideologies have historically sparked numerous international conflicts. Given this, the reaction of Britain and other allies of Israel to ongoing tensions shouldn't be one of surprise. Foreseeing the consequences, these nations recognized the inevitability of such conflicts decades in advance. Although Israelis and Palestinians once lived with intermittent conflicts, the emergence of the Zionist movement greatly intensified these disputes, eventually leading to the Israeli-Palestinian war. The situation has since worsened, fueled by the agendas of certain factions and substantial support from European countries. The involvement of these nations appears to be driven more by the strategic importance of the region than by a genuine concern for the well-being of the Israeli populace.

Imma keep it 100 wit yawl. The United States' support for Israel is less about the Israeli people and more about strategic interests. Much like a YouTuber seeking views and revenue through sensationalized content, the U.S. backs Israel primarily to assert influence in a geopolitically crucial region, especially concerning oil resources, and to serve as a counterweight to other powers in the Middle East. The sympathy campaign used to bolster support for the Israeli populace has been used to fuel strategic objectives ultimately positioning the people of Israel as pieces in a geopolitical clout game.

 

[Gospel]

We originally became involved in the mess in 1973

I had no idea 1948 was only 50 years ago.

We weren't helping them in 48.

U.S. President Harry Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a legitimate Jewish state on May 14, 1948, only eleven minutes after its creation. And then in 1949 sent the first stack of chips to Israel.

Helping definition: As a verb, "helping" means to provide what is necessary to accomplish a task or satisfy a need.


Bruh,

Edit: 11 minutes to be recognized by the US as a State has to be a record in some book somewhere. That's faster than some restaurants serve appetizers.

 

[Gospel]

For anyone who may have missed the point, my 'appetizers' comment was a way of indicating that U.S. support for Israel predated the official formation of the state in 1948. This implies a deeper, more longstanding relationship, as it's unusual for nations to extend substantial support to a newly formed state in '11 minutes,' unless they have a pre-existing, intimate understanding of that state.

 

[ZiprHead]

For anyone who may have missed the point, my 'appetizers' comment was a way of indicating that U.S. support for Israel predated the official formation of the state in 1948. This implies a deeper, more longstanding relationship, as it's unusual for nations to extend substantial support to a newly formed state in '11 minutes,' unless they have a pre-existing, intimate understanding of that state.

Maybe it was a "give them someplace to go so they don't come here" sort of thing.

 

[TomC]

Maybe it was a "give them someplace to go so they don't come here" sort of thing.

Honestly, I believe that a much bigger motivation for Allied powers than "Oh those poor Christ killers. We've been so mean to them."

It gave westerners an out. Kinda like telling black folks "Go back to Africa." Google Liberia.

That plus a beachhead within military striking distance of the gulf oil reserves.

Add the colonialist attitude of "fuck the natives, we'll put borders wherever we damn well please."

And you've got the creation of The State of Israel.
Tom

 

[JohnG]

I don't hear enough about the fact that Israel's #1 problem (even more than Hamas) is the fact that they have become a right wing nation. The left are pretty non-existent. They have drifted right since the Oslo accords and now have embraced far-right ideologies such as homophobia, nationalism, politics of fear., etc...A right wing govt is a weak govt easily provoked into doing some thing stupid - not unlike how the the US reacted to 9/11 - provoked into two devastating wars. Hamas knew that and seized upon it.

I've always been a supporter of the idea of Israel - I believe antisemitism is pervasive and it's not going away. It never has and never will as long as there are more powerful Abrahamic religions that would do well if the OG religion went away. I have said since the last Israeli election that this govt could spell the end for Israel.

Hamas is a death cult, neither right nor left - simply authoritarian terrorists. They rely on the deaths of Palestinians to fuel their movement, as right-wing govts rely on an "other" to fuel their support. Netanyahu has benefited from Hamas. just as Trump benefits from "rapist mexicans", Brexiteers benefit from "Wogs", We could list every right wing govt in existence and easily cite the evil doers they are "protecting" you from.

When people talk about Zionists - I can easily tell that they have no idea what they are talking about. I think in most cases what they are unwittingly referring to are Israeli conservatives.

 

[Arctish]

The people hosting the event might believe that terrorism is necessary,

The vile people hosting the event most certainly do, as they are defending the 10/7 terrorism.

Have you done any research on that group and the types of events they host, or are you projecting?

The poster invites people to a discussion. That might be a cover for a sales pitch, or it might be an invitation to a series of short speeches with a question and answer period between speakers. I don't know which and I suspect neither do you.

If you don't know you're not looking. No research is needed, the poster is enough. They clearly are saying the massacre was a good thing.

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

 

[Toni]

We originally became involved in the mess in 1973

I had no idea 1948 was only 50 years ago.

This^^^^
The USA has been involved and funding the war since before there was a recognized Israel.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing exactly. I see Israel as a good secular democracy, especially by middle eastern standards. Happy to live in peace with their neighbors, if the Islamist terrorists would stop attacking them.
But the violent Islamists won't because their version of primitive authoritarian tribalism is much more violent than Jewish, even Zionist.
Tom

It’s not even really that. Non-democratic regimes feel threatened by any democracy, especially in their neighborhood, so to speak. But even more, by focusing all of their anger at a Jewish state or any non-Islamic state, they deflect from the shortcomings of their own governance. By blaming ( in this case) Israel, they give a convenient target for justifiable anger of their own people.

Please do not think that I see Israel as having no blame in unrest in the Middle East. In fact, Bibi to a certain extent relies on Hana’s to shore up his own hold.

Sadly and horrifically, we are seeing the beginnings of such dynamics within the US as Christo-fascists seek greater control —for their own profit—not their prophet.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas is a death cult, neither right nor left - simply authoritarian terrorists. They rely on the deaths of Palestinians to fuel their movement, as right-wing govts rely on an "other" to fuel their support. Netanyahu has benefited from Hamas. just as Trump benefits from "rapist mexicans", Brexiteers benefit from "Wogs", We could list every right wing govt in existence and easily cite the evil doers they are "protecting" you from.

You could do the same for any left wing govt in existence. They too claim they are protecting their people from evil-doers. It is so pervasive that all do it.
North Korea claims it is protecting the North from the rapacious Sth Korea and the US. Castro did it for decades. Maduro is doing it at present.

 

[Tigers!]

And you've got the creation of The State of Israel.
Tom

Nothing to do with any death camps then?

 

[Arctish]

And you've got the creation of The State of Israel.
Tom

Nothing to do with any death camps then?

Something to do with death camps.

More to do with the Rome Ghetto and the pogroms in Ukraine, and the European empires wanting to exploit the region for their own benefit as the Ottoman Empire faltered and fell.

 

[TomC]

And you've got the creation of The State of Israel.
Tom

Nothing to do with any death camps then?

I alluded to that in my first sentence. While Dachau and such were the ugly crescendo, ugly anti-Jewish bigotry had been the norm in Christendom kinda forever. And Jewish folks had been returning to the area for about a century before the establishment of Israel to escape that bigotry.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

Old Yishuv

First Aliyah

Zionism

^These three are related but are quite distinct. And they're all older than the death camps.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Sometimes things seem the darkest just when they are about to turn. There is no peace possible as long as Hamas is in power. It also probably isn't possible as long as the Israeli far right is in power. I do think that Netanyahu's coalition is going to fall as a result of their unbelievable lapses leading up to this attack. I think that things will look better in a year or so.

There can be no peace so long as Iran continues to pour money in to the war.

Agreed. But also might be a good idea if Israel stopped funding Hamas also:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We weren't helping them in 48.

U.S. President Harry Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a legitimate Jewish state on May 14, 1948, only eleven minutes after its creation. And then in 1949 sent the first stack of chips to Israel.

Helping definition: As a verb, "helping" means to provide what is necessary to accomplish a task or satisfy a need.


Bruh,

Edit: 11 minutes to be recognized by the US as a State has to be a record in some book somewhere. That's faster than some restaurants serve appetizers.

I meant "helping" as weapons or money.