Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Gospel]

Certainly, the United States wouldn't stand for an assault on its territory. However, if it were actively encroaching upon the lands of the attackers, especially under a magic declaration claiming ownership of that land without the consent or involvement of those residing there, the US couldn't claim to be a victim.

So if the Iroquois launched a missile attack on Cincinnati, the U.S. would give in and agree to try to live in peace from now on?
Tom

No. But the US couldn't claim to have not provoked the attack.

 

[laughing dog]

Certainly, the United States wouldn't stand for an assault on its territory. However, if it were actively encroaching upon the lands of the attackers, especially under a magic declaration claiming ownership of that land without the consent or involvement of those residing there, the US couldn't claim to be a victim.

So if the Iroquois launched a missile attack on Cincinnati, the U.S. would give in and agree to try to live in peace from now on?
Tom

Why the hell would the Iroquois attack Cincinnati? They lived in the Northeast of the US, not Ohio.

 

[TomC]

Why the hell would the Iroquois attack Cincinnati? They lived in the Northeast of the US, not Ohio.

You might want to learn more about the history of the times.
Iroquois were a big tribe here in Indiana back then. It was really a big population.

But the fact is that the U.S. government signed treaties with the Iroquois giving the Iroquois permanent rights to a huge chunk of real estate starting in mid-Ohio. Copies of those treaties actually still exist. But the U.S. government simply ignored the treaties when it became convenient shortly thereafter. If "Da Injuns" tried to get the treaties honored, the U.S. military just wiped them out and drove the survivors further west.

Happened a lot back when we were a Christian Nation.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Why the hell would the Iroquois attack Cincinnati? They lived in the Northeast of the US, not Ohio.

You might want to learn more about the history of the times.....

The Iroquois was the name of a 5 tribe federation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca)_ that lived in the Northeast ( Iroquois nation ). Indiana is not part of the Northeast.

It is true that Indiana was home to many tribes (see Indigenous tribes of Indiana) but not the Iroquois.

 

[TomC]

The Iroquois was the name of a 5 tribe federation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca)_ that lived in the Northeast ( Iroquois nation ). Indiana is not part of the Northeast.

It is true that Indiana was home to many tribes (see Indigenous

All I know is that, according to my Indiana history class, the three biggest tribes in Indiana at the time of the founding of the state, were the Miami, Iroquois, and Potawhatami*.
Tom
* I'm sure I'm misspelling that.

 

[TSwizzle]

Fucking idiots;

75 protesters demanding cease-fire in Gaza were detained after blocking the southbound lanes of the 110 Freeway at 3rd Street in downtown Los Angeles Wednesday morning, according to CHP. The protest caused thousands of drivers to get stuck on the freeway for 90 minutes before multiple lanes reopened around 10:30 a.m. Southbound traffic was backed up past Dodger Stadium before the CHP reopened all lanes around 11:30 a.m.

News

 

[laughing dog]

The Iroquois was the name of a 5 tribe federation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca)_ that lived in the Northeast ( Iroquois nation ). Indiana is not part of the Northeast.

It is true that Indiana was home to many tribes (see Indigenous

All I know is that, according to my Indiana history class, the three biggest tribes in Indiana at the time of the founding of the state, were the Miami, Iroquois, and Potawhatami*.
Tom
* I'm sure I'm misspelling that.

Someone somewhere has it wrong.

 

[TomC]

The Iroquois was the name of a 5 tribe federation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca)_ that lived in the Northeast ( Iroquois nation ). Indiana is not part of the Northeast.

It is true that Indiana was home to many tribes (see Indigenous

All I know is that, according to my Indiana history class, the three biggest tribes in Indiana at the time of the founding of the state, were the Miami, Iroquois, and Potawhatami*.
Tom
* I'm sure I'm misspelling that.

Someone somewhere has it wrong.

My point was that the U.S. government has abrogated many treaties giving people rights to land that we just blew off. And that we aren't talking about ancient, unsourced, scripture. We're talking about this government and documents that still exist in the original.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Why the hell would the Iroquois attack Cincinnati? They lived in the Northeast of the US, not Ohio.

You might want to learn more about the history of the times.....

The Iroquois was the name of a 5 tribe federation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca)_ that lived in the Northeast ( Iroquois nation ). Indiana is not part of the Northeast.

It is true that Indiana was home to many tribes (see Indigenous tribes of Indiana) but not the Iroquois.

Seneca is Iroquois.

 

[Gospel]

Fucking idiots;

75 protesters demanding cease-fire in Gaza were detained after blocking the southbound lanes of the 110 Freeway at 3rd Street in downtown Los Angeles Wednesday morning, according to CHP. The protest caused thousands of drivers to get stuck on the freeway for 90 minutes before multiple lanes reopened around 10:30 a.m. Southbound traffic was backed up past Dodger Stadium before the CHP reopened all lanes around 11:30 a.m.

News

DeSantis would have let them block the freeway if they were Cuban. Speaking of Cubans, do they support Israel? Last I knew they didn't recognize the state of Israel.

Edit: By they I mean the government not the people.

 

[Arctish]

It starts with Palestine today, then it will be Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria tomorrow.

This is new to me.

Other than the entirety of the West Bank, is the hard right in Israel really claiming historical ownership/divine grant of Lebanon, the rest of Jordan, and Syria??

There is a hard right faction that does, and some of their members are pretty high up in the Israeli government.

Back in October, steve_bank linked to a CNN report about Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich speaking onstage behind a podium adorned with a 'Greater Israel' map that clearly depicts large swathes of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon as part of the State of Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

Where has he ever either proposed a deal that actually sets borders or even made a counteroffer to a proposal that actually sets borders?

When he had the opportunity he walked. All he's agreed to are things that don't set the borders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s not even really that. Non-democratic regimes feel threatened by any democracy, especially in their neighborhood, so to speak. But even more, by focusing all of their anger at a Jewish state or any non-Islamic state, they deflect from the shortcomings of their own governance. By blaming ( in this case) Israel, they give a convenient target for justifiable anger of their own people.

Yup--Israel is a very convenient EastAsia.

I don't think it truly is about democracy, but about their people seeing the people across the border having better conditions. That tends to go along with democracy.

Please do not think that I see Israel as having no blame in unrest in the Middle East. In fact, Bibi to a certain extent relies on Hana’s to shore up his own hold.

Hamas is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is Iran and perhaps others.

Sadly and horrifically, we are seeing the beginnings of such dynamics within the US as Christo-fascists seek greater control —for their own profit—not their prophet.

Yup. The QOP would love to turn us into another Iran.

 

[Arctish]

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

Where has he ever either proposed a deal that actually sets borders or even made a counteroffer to a proposal that actually sets borders?

When he had the opportunity he walked. All he's agreed to are things that don't set the borders.

Stop trying to re-frame the discussion. You said Abbas only pretended to seek a diplomatic solution. Show us the evidence that supports your claim.

TBH your posts remind me of Christian fundamentalists trying to hand wave away the fossil record by claiming Satan hid really big bones in the Earth to fool scientists. It's absurd to claim that the guys who spent years working on the Oslo Accords, Wye River Amendments, etc., weren't trying to successfully negotiate a peace treaty, but that's 'Israel can do no wrong' Zionist dogma for you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

Where has he ever either proposed a deal that actually sets borders or even made a counteroffer to a proposal that actually sets borders?

When he had the opportunity he walked. All he's agreed to are things that don't set the borders.

Stop trying to re-frame the discussion. You said Abbas only pretended to seek a diplomatic solution. Show us the evidence that supports your claim.

TBH your posts remind me of Christian fundamentalists trying to hand wave away the fossil record by claiming Satan hid really big bones in the Earth to fool scientists. It's absurd to claim that the guys who spent years working on the Oslo Accords, Wye River Amendments, etc., weren't trying to successfully negotiate a peace treaty, but that's 'Israel can do no wrong' Zionist dogma for you.

No, I'm asking for evidence that what he was after was an actual settlement rather than just talks. Because his actions aren't consistent with actually wanting to make an agreement.

 

[Arctish]

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

Where has he ever either proposed a deal that actually sets borders or even made a counteroffer to a proposal that actually sets borders?

When he had the opportunity he walked. All he's agreed to are things that don't set the borders.

Stop trying to re-frame the discussion. You said Abbas only pretended to seek a diplomatic solution. Show us the evidence that supports your claim.

TBH your posts remind me of Christian fundamentalists trying to hand wave away the fossil record by claiming Satan hid really big bones in the Earth to fool scientists. It's absurd to claim that the guys who spent years working on the Oslo Accords, Wye River Amendments, etc., weren't trying to successfully negotiate a peace treaty, but that's 'Israel can do no wrong' Zionist dogma for you.

No, I'm asking for evidence that what he was after was an actual settlement rather than just talks. Because his actions aren't consistent with actually wanting to make an agreement.

You haven't been asking for evidence. You have been telling stories.

I have been asking for evidence and you have yet to provide it. Please do so now. Link to sources that support your claims or admit you made it all up.

Obviously you want us to take your word for it that Abbas is not sincere in seeking a diplomatic solution, but why should we? Your ignorance regarding every accord, addendum, and agreement he has been involved with or personally negotiated over the last 30 years is profound. You don't even know that some of them have maps.

 

[Politesse]

Certainly, the United States wouldn't stand for an assault on its territory. However, if it were actively encroaching upon the lands of the attackers, especially under a magic declaration claiming ownership of that land without the consent or involvement of those residing there, the US couldn't claim to be a victim.

So if the Iroquois launched a missile attack on Cincinnati, the U.S. would give in and agree to try to live in peace from now on?
Tom

Why the hell would the Iroquois attack Cincinnati? They lived in the Northeast of the US, not Ohio.

Beaver Wars, my dude. The Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois Confederacy most certainly did invade Ohio. There was a brief period in which damn near every imperial power on on the continent was invading Ohio, or trying to. But the Iroquois suceeded, and captured a large swath of it in a brutal sixty year long campaign, colonizing a slice of the riverfront by and into the 18th century.

This is an event with major consequences in the present, as along the way they destroyed or scattered nearly all the Iroquoian speaking nations not allied with the Confederation (like the Wendat/Huron), and threw the Great Lakes region into utter chaos. From an American perspective, "empty" lands were free lands, and our own colonists' passionate desire to establish colonies in the now seemingly vacated Ohio Country was a major source of contention with the British government, which was still trying to honor the terms of their own non-aggression treaties with the Haudenosaunee. This all but guaranteed frontier support for the the American Revolution, and a concurrent civil war within the Haudenosaunee in which most member nations took up the British cause.

This ended with a genocidal campaign by the Colonial troops, fought indiscriminately against all the Iroquoian peoples, and the seizure of nearly all of their lands beyond what you probably think of as their present location. The boundaries of the many of the US States, and probably our national border with Canada, would look very different had not this Iroquois expansion into the Midwest occurred. Our imperial ambitions in this region was built on the bones of theirs, and the loyalties of many of the involved parties were set in stone during this time, and several political alliances that still exist today.

Sorry, I know this is a derail but watching two parties duke it out over historically inaccurate statements that would have taken all of like five seconds to google was driving me crazy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Admitting that Abbas has committed the PA to seeking a diplomatic solution would be helpful as well.

We don't admit it because it's never happened. He's pretended to seek a diplomatic solution but this has always been shown to be a ruse. Note that radical Islam does not believe in binding agreements with infidels. Any agreement with an infidel is purely for temporary convenience. Think of the QOP turned up to 11.

^This is pure bullshit^

If you have sources for your claims, please provide them.

Where has he ever either proposed a deal that actually sets borders or even made a counteroffer to a proposal that actually sets borders?

When he had the opportunity he walked. All he's agreed to are things that don't set the borders.

Stop trying to re-frame the discussion. You said Abbas only pretended to seek a diplomatic solution. Show us the evidence that supports your claim.

TBH your posts remind me of Christian fundamentalists trying to hand wave away the fossil record by claiming Satan hid really big bones in the Earth to fool scientists. It's absurd to claim that the guys who spent years working on the Oslo Accords, Wye River Amendments, etc., weren't trying to successfully negotiate a peace treaty, but that's 'Israel can do no wrong' Zionist dogma for you.

No, I'm asking for evidence that what he was after was an actual settlement rather than just talks. Because his actions aren't consistent with actually wanting to make an agreement.

You haven't been asking for evidence. You have been telling stories.

I have been asking for evidence and you have yet to provide it. Please do so now. Link to sources that support your claims or admit you made it all up.

Obviously you want us to take your word for it that Abbas is not sincere in seeking a diplomatic solution, but why should we? Your ignorance regarding every accord, addendum, and agreement he has been involved with or personally negotiated over the last 30 years is profound. You don't even know that some of them have maps.

Where is the supposed peace offer?

 

[Arctish]

Where is the supposed peace offer?

If you are genuinely interested in learning about the many offers made over the decades you can start by reading the Oslo Accords. Then we can discuss the less well known deals like the Wye River Memorandum.

And by 'read them' I mean actually take the time to read them. Don't just go looking for some Zionist spin video that will tell you what you want to hear whether it's true or not.

And be sure to check out the signatures at the bottom. You appear to have no idea who negotiated them, or who signed them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where is the supposed peace offer?

If you are genuinely interested in learning about the many offers made over the decades you can start by reading the Oslo Accords. Then we can discuss the less well known deals like the Wye River Memorandum.

And by 'read them' I mean actually take the time to read them. Don't just go looking for some Zionist spin video that will tell you what you want to hear whether it's true or not.

And be sure to check out the signatures at the bottom. You appear to have no idea who negotiated them, or who signed them.

Oslo specifically kicked the can on the important issues. How can you see it as Arafat agreeing to peace?