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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?
That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.
One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.
Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!
“Onto” is.

Therefore, “onto which country will they latch…” would be more ‘proper’ grammar.
But what makes "onto which country will they latch" more proper than "which country will they latch onto"? The infamous rule is "Don't end a sentence with a preposition". Well, he didn't -- he avoided breaking the rule by tacking "next" on after "onto". So the preposition wasn't what he ended his sentence with. :devil:
 
After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?
That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.
One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.
Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!
“Onto” is.

Therefore, “onto which country will they latch…” would be more ‘proper’ grammar.
But what makes "onto which country will they latch" more proper than "which country will they latch onto"? The infamous rule is "Don't end a sentence with a preposition". Well, he didn't -- he avoided breaking the rule by tacking "next" on after "onto". So the preposition wasn't what he ended his sentence with. :devil:


But this is the important thing, really. Let’s not allow the focus to be brushed under a rug…

That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.

This is indeed wildly inaccurate and offensive.
(notwithstanding I disagree with the expense)
 
They have been pushed right by the actions of the Palestinians.
^^^^ This ^^^^
Israel used to be a left wing nation. The voters stopped going for that because the left's land-for-peace deals kept not getting them any peace.
Which land for peace deal was enacted?

if the answer is none, then how do the Israelis know the deal would not have improved matters for them?
Which land for peace deal was offered? All the Israelis got from the left's years of talking to Arafat was offers of temporary peace for permanent land.

That is taking history and flipping it on its head.

It was the Israelis who refused to discuss permanent borders after Rabin was murdered.
You're misinformed. The Barak administration negotiated for permanent borders in 2000 at the Camp David Summit.

Rabin was denounced as a traitor to Zionism for agreeing to a plan that would have had part of Eretz Israel become a Palestinian State.
And if Arafat hadn't walked out of the CDS and gone with the 2nd Intifada some Palestinian extremist probably would have murdered him for being a traitor. Peace-seeking moderates on both sides keep getting torpedoed by their own sides' we-want-it-all-ists.

When Secretary of State Clinton attempted to <snip>
Secretary of State Clinton took office in 2009. That's after Israel became a right-wing nation. It is not relevant to whether the Israelis have been pushed right by the actions of the Palestinians unless you've got a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.

Arafat and the PLO officially recognized everything on the Israel side of the 1967 borders as part of the State of Israel, that those lands would not be part of the Palestinian State, and agreed to make some land swaps so that the border could be somewhat adjusted. They explicitly and openly agreed to a land for peace deal and followed through on their end of it until the peace process stopped when the Israeli Prime Minister backing it was murdered.

I really think you should read up on the Oslo Accords and the history of its implementation.
Take your own advice. Start with the very name: "The Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip". "Interim" means "interim". The agreement was "for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338." The PLO was reserving the right to resume the armed struggle if the Israelis didn't meet their demands within five years. It should be noted that the Israelis and the Palestinians have very different understandings of what Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 dictate.

According to Clinton the Camp David Summit failed because Arafat wouldn't budge on "right of return".
Well, if that was the sticking point, why are you saying the problem was Palestinians not agreeing to final borders?
:consternation2: The heck are you on about? Where the bejesus did I say the problem was Palestinians not agreeing to final borders?

The problem I'm talking about is Western leftists' double standard, constantly holding Israelis responsible for the wrongdoings they provoke Palestinians to commit but never holding Palestinians responsible for the wrongdoings they provoke Israelis to commit.

And what exactly was Arafat proposing? For the Rights of Indigenous People to be acknowledged?
Are you under the impression that the Israelis and the Palestinians are playing charades as if they were Republicans and Democrats?

For a token return of a few thousand refugees? For compensation to be offered by the State of Israel to those who were deliberately targeted in Plan Dalet? That's not controversial to anyone who isn't determined to screw over people of other races, ethnicities, and religious faiths.
:consternation2: Where do you get this stuff? You're the one "taking history and flipping it on its head" here. It was the Israelis who proposed monetary compensation and the "token return of a few thousand refugees", if "token" and "a few" are what we're calling one hundred thousand Palestinians. What exactly was Arafat proposing? Arafat was exactly proposing that Israel accept the return of one hundred and fifty thousand refugees per year.

To Arafat and the other Palestinians delegated to talk to the Israelis, negotiations for a two-state solution appear to have always been a temporary measure, a strategy for getting the one-state solution of their dreams by gradual means. If they get Israel to agree to take in enough Palestinians, eventually Israel will have a Palestinian majority and democratically vote to give itself the power to ethnically cleanse the Jews. That's permanent land for temporary peace. When the Israeli voting public concluded that that was the best deal their leftist governments were going to be able to get from the Palestinian leadership, they stopped electing leftist governments.

Why are you making it sound like Arafat was being unreasonable?
Why are you making it about me? I'm reporting Bill Clinton's opinion of why the negotiations fell apart.
 
After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?
That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.
One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.
Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!
“Onto” is.

Therefore, “onto which country will they latch…” would be more ‘proper’ grammar.
But what makes "onto which country will they latch" more proper than "which country will they latch onto"? The infamous rule is "Don't end a sentence with a preposition". Well, he didn't -- he avoided breaking the rule by tacking "next" on after "onto". So the preposition wasn't what he ended his sentence with. :devil:
My comment wasn't about ending a sentence with a preposition. I know he did not. I was just making a snarky comment of grammatical pedantry. The fact you don't see the nuanced difference is testament to how esoteric the distinction is.
 
But what makes "onto which country will they latch" more proper than "which country will they latch onto"? The infamous rule is "Don't end a sentence with a preposition". Well, he didn't -- he avoided breaking the rule by tacking "next" on after "onto". So the preposition wasn't what he ended his sentence with. :devil:
My comment wasn't about ending a sentence with a preposition. I know he did not. I was just making a snarky comment of grammatical pedantry. The fact you don't see the nuanced difference is testament to how esoteric the distinction is.
So was I -- I wrote four sentences and every one ended with a preposition. :biggrina:
 
After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?
That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.
One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.
Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!
My English teacher said that a preposition is a word that fits into the blank in the sentence "The bird is <blank> the cage", like "in", "on" or "under".

I suggested that "eating" was therefore a preposition, and ended up <blank> detention.

I would also like to point out that in Yorkshire, "Next" is very definitely a preposition.
 
The silly rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition has always been stupidly wrong for English grammar, but English speakers know that intuitively. That's why they enjoy making jokes about this ancient "grammar school" dictum.
It was originally based on the mistaken idea that English ought to behave more like a Romance language (French or Latin). It would be difficult to find a single style guide these days that still recommends the rule, but, should you come across one, throw it in the trash. Don't throw copies of the classic Strunk and White Elements of Style in the trash. Those should be burned in order to ensure that they don't fall into the hands of gullible schoolchildren. :Sarcasm:
 
The infamous rule is "Don't end a sentence with a preposition".
This is a thing up with which I will not put.*






*Often misattributed to Churchill, this reposte first appears in the West Sussex Gazette in 1941, where it was attributed to an anonymous (and likely apocryphal) junior officer, who objected to his senior officer correcting him on his grammar.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/07/04/churchill-preposition/?amp=1
My favorite is this:

“The boy asked his father: what did you bring the book I didn’t want to be read to out of up for?”
 
After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?
That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment. ... Congratulations. I guess.
One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.
Dude! "Next" is not a preposition!
My English teacher said that a preposition is a word that fits into the blank in the sentence "The bird is <blank> the cage", like "in", "on" or "under".

I suggested that "eating" was therefore a preposition
Good lord, what kind of a bird have you got? Have you resurrected the extinct moa?

, and ended up <blank> detention.
"skipping"?

I would also like to point out that in Yorkshire, "Next" is very definitely a preposition.
 
For someone who isn't targeting civilians, the IDF does a damn good job of killing them in quantities that vastly outnumber Hamas victims. Right now the ration of Gazan civilian causalities to Isreali ones is between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.
I find the biased blindness of this accusation infuriating, myself.
There are two main categories of victims here. The Israeli victims of the terrorist attack on 10/7 and the Gazans used as human shields by the terrorists. Virtually every casualty is the predictable result of Hamas' violence and disregard for any human life at all.
Nor is this a new development. Islamic extremists have been operating this way for decades. Hamas is just the latest iteration of that.
Using your standard, innocent people get killed in war, so their deaths do not determine right or wrong. You did not mention intent. Using your standard, Hamas is no more wrong than the IDF. Since you do not think the IDF is wrong, consistency requires you to stop claiming Hamas is wrong.

I am simply pointing out your standard is ridiculous.
It's your misrepresentation of what he said that's ridiculous. You're tacitly assuming some kind of moral parity between violent terrorists and their victims. There is none. Gazans who get bombed are getting bombed because their leadership embedded military installations next to or even under crucial civilian infrastructures like hospitals, apartment buildings, and houses of worship.
That's far and away the biggest war crime in this whole disastrous mess. Islamic terrorists using the Gazans as human shields to hide behind after they attack Israel.

Where was all the "save the innocent Gazans" outrage back when Hamas was building all this? Why didn't Gazans themselves object? People get all upset when Israel stops supplying water and power to the people that just launched a terrorist attack against them, where's the upset that Gazan leadership had invested in tunnels and missiles instead of water and power infrastructure?

The list of crimes committed by violent Muslim extremists against Gazans dwarfs any by Israel.
Tom
 
link

Senior Hamas official (I have no idea what that term means) Saleh Arouri is allegedly targeted and killed in Israeli strike. IDF isn't talking.
article said:
At least six people died in the explosion, Lebanon’s state news agency reported. Hamas said Israel had carried out “cowardly assassinations” and that two leaders of Hamas’s elite Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades had also been killed.
Hamas' response is peculiar. Are they suggesting they prefer Israel target civilians?
 
For someone who isn't targeting civilians, the IDF does a damn good job of killing them in quantities that vastly outnumber Hamas victims. Right now the ration of Gazan civilian causalities to Isreali ones is between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.
I find the biased blindness of this accusation infuriating, myself. ….
I get that facts upset you, that is the reality. No matter how you wish to spin it, Gazans are being killed by IDF actions.
TomC said:
Using your standard, innocent people get killed in war, so their deaths do not determine right or wrong. You did not mention intent. Using your standard, Hamas is no more wrong than the IDF. Since you do not think the IDF is wrong, consistency requires you to stop claiming Hamas is wrong.

I am simply pointing out your standard is ridiculous.
It's your misrepresentation of what he said that's ridiculous. You're tacitly assuming some kind of moral parity between violent terrorists and their victims. ….
No, I’m not. Civilian Gazans are being killed because of conscious decisions made by Israeli politicians and the IDF. That Your apparent feeling these Gazans deserve their fate resembles the reasoning of Hamas terrorists.
 
For someone who isn't targeting civilians, the IDF does a damn good job of killing them in quantities that vastly outnumber Hamas victims. Right now the ration of Gazan civilian causalities to Isreali ones is between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.
I find the biased blindness of this accusation infuriating, myself.
There are two main categories of victims here. The Israeli victims of the terrorist attack on 10/7 and the Gazans used as human shields by the terrorists. Virtually every casualty is the predictable result of Hamas' violence and disregard for any human life at all.
Nor is this a new development. Islamic extremists have been operating this way for decades. Hamas is just the latest iteration of that.
I'd say that can be broken into many more divisions.
Victims:
  • Israeli victims of 10/7 attack
  • Gaza victims
    • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas infrastructure
    • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting low level Hamas fighters
    • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting high level Hamas officials
    • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting top level Hamas officials
    • IDF bomb/missile attacks targeting Hamas officials responsible for 10/7 attack
    • IDF attack mistake
    • Hamas or local militia fuck up
    • Hamas or local militia intentional targeting of Gazans
The question to be asked is "Is the outcome worth the collateral cost of heightened extremism and recruitment?" IE, is the target valuable enough that'll it will overwhelm the potential radicalization of future Gazans to fight for Hamas (or whomever else) and its relative impact on Israeli security.

Just because collateral damage is a reality, doesn't mean it comes with no greater cost. Let's strap you in Gaza a young adult, spending the first 18 years of you life in Gaza between 2005 and 2023, and see how your worldview is impacted by the media vacuum and poverty.
 
Civilian Gazans are being killed because of conscious decisions made by Israeli politicians and the IDF.
Specifically, IDF's decision to protect Israel from further terrorist attacks from the military installations in Gaza.
How hard is that to see. Israelis get attacked. But when they defend themselves they're vilified. I'm calling bullshit.
Tom
 
Just because collateral damage is a reality, doesn't mean it comes with no greater cost. Let's strap you in Gaza a young adult, spending the first 18 years of you life in Gaza between 2005 and 2023, and see how your worldview is impacted by the media vacuum and poverty.
You mean like the Israelis who have lived their whole lives under assault by Islamic extremists? From the military assault starting the day after Israel became official, to '67, to suicide bombers and Intifadas, you mean like that? You're surprised to find that Israelis now want hard right leadership that promises to protect them from that and care less about protecting the people who have been attacking them for their whole lives?

Yeah, guess what. Israelis are also driven by the same psychological factors. Maybe if Muslims stopped the violent attacks for a couple of generations Israelis would have a different cultural attitude.
Tom
 
Maybe if Muslims stopped the violent attacks for a couple of generations Israelis would have a different cultural attitude.
I feel like MAGA would like a word here…

(speaking of 2 peaceful generations NOT resulting in a cessation of hate…)
 
Civilian Gazans are being killed because of conscious decisions made by Israeli politicians and the IDF.
Specifically, IDF's decision to protect Israel from further terrorist attacks from the military installations in Gaza.
How hard is that to see. Israelis get attacked. But when they defend themselves they're vilified. I'm calling bullshit.
Tom
Killing civilians is not defense. It is creating more hate and more terrorists.

Whether you or I like it or not, whether you or I think it is justified or not, the gov’t of Israel is choosing to “defend” its citizens in a way that inflicts magnitudes more civilian death snd destruction than Hamas.

That is an accurate description of reality. Interesting you think that is “ villification”.
 
Killing civilians is not defense. It is creating more hate and more terrorists.
It is when the terrorists deliberately use them as human shields the way Hamas is doing!
Hamas is killing those Gazans just as certainly as they killed a bunch of Israelis on 10/7.
Tom
ETA ~Hamas is creating a bunch more hate and terrorism. Have been for years. And a bunch of westerners are cheering them on! ~
 
Maybe if Muslims stopped the violent attacks for a couple of generations Israelis would have a different cultural attitude.
I feel like MAGA would like a word here…

(speaking of 2 peaceful generations NOT resulting in a cessation of hate…)
Might you be a little less cryptic?

I see Hamas as similar to the Teaparty leadership encouraging hate and violence by lying to their supporters. And Gazans as MAGAts, because they believe the lies to the point of their own destruction.
Tom
 
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