Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[TomC]

It does feel a bit awkward when you, Oleg, and I are so completely on the same page.

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Never being able to feel safe is an extreme burden that few straight white men have to deal with.

Feelings safe is never ever confused with actual safety.

Males are more dangerous to females, on the subject of sex and assault, than females are to anybody. Period.

Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."

Now that's irrational.
Tom

 

[Toni]

It does feel a bit awkward when you, Oleg, and I are so completely on the same page.

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Never being able to feel safe is an extreme burden that few straight white men have to deal with.

Feelings safe is never ever confused with actual safety.

Males are more dangerous to females, on the subject of sex and assault, than females are to anybody. Period.

Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."

Now that's irrational.
Tom

A couple of things, the first of which I do not write with any pride: Women can be deadly to their children. I’m not talking abortion: I’m talking the children they gave birth to. It’s really a question of access and exposure: women spend much more time raising children.

Secondly: the fact is that more women and children are assaulted by men they know: family members, friends of the family, teachers, preachers and coaches. Because those men are trusted because they are known. Most family members, teachers and preachers and coaches do not take advantage of their positions which allow them access and trust. But some do. And this trust and access allows them to do real harm.

 

[TomC]

A couple of things, the first of which I do not write with any pride: Women can be deadly to their children. I’m not talking abortion: I’m talking the children they gave birth to. It’s really a question of access and exposure: women spend much more time raising children.

Secondly: the fact is that more women and children are assaulted by men they know: family members, friends of the family, teachers, preachers and coaches. Because those men are trusted because they are known. Most family members, teachers and preachers and coaches do not take advantage of their positions which allow them access and trust. But some do. And this trust and access allows them to do real harm.

So, we're back to the fact that you and I agree? All of that is true, it's just not relevant to the thread.

Looks more like derailing a thread split due to a derail from yet another thread.

We weren't talking about the dangers posed by trusted adults to vulnerable people, enormous as those are. We were discussing the feelings and concerns ordinary adults have about strangers in public places.
Tom

 

[Toni]

A couple of things, the first of which I do not write with any pride: Women can be deadly to their children. I’m not talking abortion: I’m talking the children they gave birth to. It’s really a question of access and exposure: women spend much more time raising children.

Secondly: the fact is that more women and children are assaulted by men they know: family members, friends of the family, teachers, preachers and coaches. Because those men are trusted because they are known. Most family members, teachers and preachers and coaches do not take advantage of their positions which allow them access and trust. But some do. And this trust and access allows them to do real harm.

So, we're back to the fact that you and I agree? All of that is true, it's just not relevant to the thread.

Looks more like derailing a thread split due to a derail from yet another thread.

We weren't talking about the dangers posed by trusted adults to vulnerable people, enormous as those are. We were discussing the feelings and concerns ordinary adults have about strangers in public places.
Tom

They aren’t just ‘feelings’. They are reality that is faced by women if all kinds as well as at least some gay men LGBTQ people. That informs our actions, beliefs and concerns. Which, btw, are backed up by statistics.

It’s not bigotry for most of us. It’s legitimate concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

 

[Oleg]

It’s not bigotry for most of us. It’s legitimate concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

This would only make sense if it's shown that men are far more likely to commit sexual offenses than women.

 

[Politesse]

concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

You admit you have no way of knowing, then? If your judgement can't be trusted, then we need to instead design policies based on substantive, demonstrable threats to public safety. Not on subjective feelings, which at present are being purposefully and successfully manipulated by the alt-right. Trying to make a bogeyman out of a group - trans women - that are not a serious threat according to any credible data we now possess, you are not making women any safer. The real causes and situations where women are actually most at risk - usually, institutional relationships of highly unequal power between the sexes - are being ignored in favor of solving an imagined crisis with no basis in fact whatsoever. And your buddies on the alt-right who will vociferously back you on anything relating to trans kids in locker rooms will mysteriously vanish if you start advocating for other policies - like demanding the real enforcement Title IX protections - that would actually increase the safety of all women in the nation. Not just vanish, actually. Suddenly, your new-found friends will turn on you altogether, and insist that women are never raped by their bosses, their doctors, their pastors, just as seriously and solemnly as they are now trying to convince you that a confused teenager in a locker room is a greater threat than all of the above. That you already have all the legal protection you need, and #metoo was a lie. See Oleg above, straight up denying that men are a threat at all. Is that kind of hand waving attitude what we should trust in navigating the very real threat of sexual assault and abuse?

Because they don't actually care about women's lives. But you do. So don't let your energies be redirected in this way. Do not fall for it. When victimized groups get talked into villainizing other victimized groups, the only party who comes out ahead are their abusers.

 

[Toni]

concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

You admit you have no way of knowing, then? If your judgement can't be trusted, then we need to instead design policies based on substantive, demonstrable threats to public safety. Not on subjective feelings, which at present are being purposefully and successfully manipulated by the alt-right. Trying to make a bogeyman out of a group - trans women - that are not a serious threat according to any credible data we now possess, you are not making women any safer. The real causes and situations where women are actually most at risk - usually, institutional relationships of highly unequal power between the sexes - are being ignored in favor of solving an imagined crisis with no basis in fact whatsoever. And your buddies on the alt-right who will vociferously back you on anything relating to trans kids in locker rooms will mysteriously vanish if you start advocating for other policies - like demanding the real enforcement Title IX protections - that would actually increase the safety of all women in the nation. Not just vanish, actually. Suddenly, your new-found friends will turn on you, and insist that women are never raped by their bosses, their doctors, their pastors, just as seriously and solemnly as they are now trying to convince you that a confused teenager in a locker room is a greater threat than all of the above. That you already have all the legal protection you need, and #metoo was a lie.

Because they don't actually care about women's lives. But you do. So don't let your energies be redirected in this way. Do not fall for it. When victimized groups get talked into villainizing other victimized groups, the only party who comes out ahead are their abusers.

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

You have written that you have not felt safe in men's locker rooms. I get it. I would not particularly feel safe there, at least not when I was a younger woman. Today I'd probably frighten more men than not.

I understand that you feel this particularly acutely. I truly have zero wish or desire for transwomen or gender nonconforming or gender fluid or gay people or any person at all to face any threat at all. I've said that many times in this thread. I want ALL women to feel comfortable and safe and to BE comfortable and safe.

You expect women to instantaneously discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them in the women's locker room is no threat. HOW are we supposed to do that? I've asked before and gotten no answer.

Because in the moment, she will look exactly like those naked strangers with penises in the men's locker room.

I have just realized that we are not talking about the same situation:. You're talking about students at risk in school locker rooms. I'm talking about adult spaces in gyms, etc.

That said, I will truly go out on a limb here and say that it is my belief that schools will have had some process for determining who does and who does not belong in which locker room so that any person in the locker room should feel and be safe and comfortable. That process must account for ensuring the safety and comfort of all students including trans students. However, the students need to know that this screening process has been carried out to ensure the safety of everyone. They need to know that the people they are sharing space with truly belong there. This is a bit tricky as I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that a lot of adolescents do not feel comfortable with their own bodies much less anyone else's.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s about deserving to feel safe. Which you should understand because you don’t think that trans women would feel safe or comfortable in a locker room with a bunch of men.

And nobody has offered a single way that women are supposed to know in that moment, naked in the women’s locket room, the difference between a naked non-surgical trans woman and some man who intends them harm.

Keyword that you're still missing: "Feel".

It's an illusion of safety, there is no actual protection provided.

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Never being able to feel safe is an extreme burden that few straight white men have to deal with.

Feelings safe is never ever confused with actual safety.

You know one of the first signs of danger in a woman’s locker room ( aside from smoke and flames)? A naked stranger with a penis.

In fact, naked strangers with penises are so scary that trans women who have penises, some gay men and some gender non-conforming people not only feel unsafe but actually ARE unsafe.

You know who else can not only feel but actually BE unsafe in the presence of naked strangers with penises?

Women. Not just trans women but also cis women.

Lots of opportunities for women to be unsafe and a whole lot of them—but not ALL of them, of course, involve naked people with penises. Trust me, we all know that a man doesn’t have to be naked to be dangerous to us.

You still haven't established why society should act on your fear of penises (which realistically pose no harm in the sort of situation we are talking about--the guy who is going to attack you isn't walking around naked) but not on a fear of black people (which the statistics show actually are a threat--albeit due to socioeconomic status, not actually race.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."

The ones that are a threat are not the ones that are going to be undressed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s not bigotry for most of us. It’s legitimate concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

This would only make sense if it's shown that men are far more likely to commit sexual offenses than women.

And you think that's not the case?!

Most sexual offenses are committed by men. It's just this trans panic stuff is focusing on the wrong men.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

 

[Oleg]

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem.

I had thought that "mansplaing" was a comically stupid woke phrase. But I get it now.

 

[Bomb#20]

concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

You admit you have no way of knowing, then? If your judgement can't be trusted, then we need to instead design policies based on substantive, demonstrable threats to public safety. Not on subjective feelings, which at present are being purposefully and successfully manipulated by the alt-right. Trying to make a bogeyman out of a group - trans women - that are not a serious threat according to any credible data we now possess, you are not making women any safer.

Stop strawmanning Toni. She was not "Trying to make a bogeyman out of a group - trans women". She has never done that. You have never seen her do that and you have never had a reason to think you were seeing her do that. You made that up out of whole cloth. That's a nauseatingly popular rhetorical cheat among an awful lot of self-appointed "trans allies". Every time some woman points out that self-id makes it open season on women for cis-male predators who will ruthlessly take advantage of the lowering of the traditional social barriers that used to keep them away from the women they get off on victimizing, one or another of you guys trumps up the false accusation that she's accusing genuine transwomen of being predators. Stop doing that. It's disingenuous.

See Oleg above, straight up denying that men are a threat at all. Is that kind of hand waving attitude what we should trust in navigating the very real threat of sexual assault and abuse?

It’s not bigotry for most of us. It’s legitimate concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.

This would only make sense if it's shown that men are far more likely to commit sexual offenses than women.

And you think that's not the case?!

Most sexual offenses are committed by men.

Oleg knows that. He was obviously ridiculing the "trans allies" who keep pooh-poohing women's legitimate concerns about the injuries the trans-rights movement is trying to coerce women to put up with. You two really need your sarcasm meters recalibrated.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

Is that what you would say if you woke up and found a naked stranger with a penis in your bedroom?

Before you say that's a different case: you would not expect to find a naked stranger, penis or no, in your bedroom: Women do NOT expect to find a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room.

 

[Toni]

Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."

The ones that are a threat are not the ones that are going to be undressed.

Really. Naked people are considered enough of a threat around a children's playground that they generally get arrested.

 

[Toni]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

You have a point; I somewhat misread Politesse's post.

Women have every right to be afraid of men's feelings: Feelings of rage. Feelings of power. Feelings of revenge. Men's feelings start wars, cause women to be beaten, raped, murdered, to lose their children, to be denied appropriate medical care. For the short list. Everything you mentioned fearing a woman's feelings for, women feel frightened that men can do to them because they do it. One of those requires an exposed penis.

 

[Jarhyn]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

You have a point; I somewhat misread Politesse's post.

Women have every right to be afraid of men's feelings: Feelings of rage. Feelings of power. Feelings of revenge. Men's feelings start wars, cause women to be beaten, raped, murdered, to lose their children, to be denied appropriate medical care. For the short list. Everything you mentioned fearing a woman's feelings for, women feel frightened that men can do to them because they do it. One of those requires an exposed penis.

They have every right to be afraid of aggressive feelings. Whether those are "men's" feelings or just human feelings, that's a big distinction.

Do "white people" have a right to feel afraid of "black people"'s"feelings?

I am afraid of certain feelings I've seen coming from women.

I am afraid of those individual women.

I am not afraid of "women's feelings". I have seen those feelings come from people who claim to be men. I have seen the other feelings coming from people who claim to be women. I see no reason to doubt their claims so they are just "people"'s feelings and they certainly don't belong to "men" or "women".

I recall a movement based on feelings that started a war on drugs.

I recall several "PANIC! THINK OF THE CHILDREN" movements that resulted in untold waves of child abuse and autistic suppression.

And no, "one of them" does not require an exposed penis. A broom handle, thumb, or in one case a BIC pen are enough to violate just about anyone. It has sometimes been effected merely with a closed door in an unrecorded room on the basis that one party would be believed while the other would not. I am sure in some cases clothing stayed on entirely, but a rape still happened...

Sometimes it's the person with the penis getting down on all fours or shitting their pants or whatever for the rapist.

The fact is, you judge men as "probably rapist" while you judge women as "probably not".

Making that judgement on the basis of ownership of a penis is as apt as making the judgement that someone has a rape fetish on the basis that they have breasts.

You can't just assume things on the basis of external anatomy.

You shouldn't.

And if you are participating in circle-jerks where you just reaffirm for you and your friends that your prejudices are sound, then it sounds a lot like that whole "blacks commit half the crime" canard.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

 

[Toni]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

You have a point; I somewhat misread Politesse's post.

Women have every right to be afraid of men's feelings: Feelings of rage. Feelings of power. Feelings of revenge. Men's feelings start wars, cause women to be beaten, raped, murdered, to lose their children, to be denied appropriate medical care. For the short list. Everything you mentioned fearing a woman's feelings for, women feel frightened that men can do to them because they do it. One of those requires an exposed penis.

They have every right to be afraid of aggressive feelings. Whether those are "men's" feelings or just human feelings, that's a big distinction.

Do "white people" have a right to feel afraid of "black people"'s"feelings?

I am afraid of certain feelings I've seen coming from women.

I am afraid of those individual women.

I am not afraid of "women's feelings". I have seen those feelings come from people who claim to be men. I have seen the other feelings coming from people who claim to be women. I see no reason to doubt their claims so they are just "people"'s feelings and they certainly don't belong to "men" or "women".

I recall a movement based on feelings that started a war on drugs.

I recall several "PANIC! THINK OF THE CHILDREN" movements that resulted in untold waves of child abuse and autistic suppression.

And no, "one of them" does not require an exposed penis. A broom handle, thumb, or in one case a BIC pen are enough to violate just about anyone. It has sometimes been effected merely with a closed door in an unrecorded room on the basis that one party would be believed while the other would not. I am sure in some cases clothing stayed on entirely, but a rape still happened...

Sometimes it's the person with the penis getting down on all fours or shitting their pants or whatever for the rapist.

The fact is, you judge men as "probably rapist" while you judge women as "probably not".

Making that judgement on the basis of ownership of a penis is as apt as making the judgement that someone has a rape fetish on the basis that they have breasts.

You can't just assume things on the basis of external anatomy.

You shouldn't.

And if you are participating in circle-jerks where you just reaffirm for you and your friends that your prejudices are sound, then it sounds a lot like that whole "blacks commit half the crime" canard.

No one yet has told me HOW a woman in the women's locker room is supposed to KNOW that the naked stranger standing next to her in the shower is a transwoman and no threat. NO ONE. I've typed out that question repeatedly in this thread but everyone ignores it including people who tell me I'm being stupid or my feelings don't matter.

EVERYONE accusing me of bigotry or being bigotry-adjacent ignores that I've repeatedly suggested that universal stalls with doors are the best way to protect everyone's privacy.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of feelings. It's what people do or don't do that people might need to fear. Or at least anticipate.

The very sad fact is that at least 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Men are also victims of sexual assault. Transpeople, queer, gender non-specific people have high rates of sexual assault and rape. And children as well, which is the most tragic. We have better stats on women and sexual assault but most people acknowledge that 1 in 4 is probably an underestimation. Rape and sexual assault is under reported across the spectrum, for many reasons but most often because the assailant is someone the victim knows and is often dependent on for housing, economic support, etc. It is indeed shocking and confusing to be assaulted by someone you know and thought you could trust, with no issues of dependency. I know a number of women who have been raped by someone they knew and thought they could trust. None went to the police, even with my urging. Or to the hospital, even with my urging.

I am 100% NOT questioning the right of every single person, whatever their gender or sex or sexual orientation or configuration of their genitals or whether or not they are on the LBGTQ spectrum to be able to use gym facilities and shower in comfort and safety.

I'm asking HOW WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHEN THAT NAKED STRANGER WITH A PENIS IS A THREAT IN THE WOMEN'S LOCKER ROOM AND WHEN THEY ARE NOT?

And also: WHY IS MY SUGGESTION OF UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL STALLS FOR DRESSING AND SHOWERING NOT OK?

And finally: WHY IS MY ASKING THE ABOVE QUESTION OR MAKING THE ABOVE SUGGESTION A SIGN OF NON-ACCEPTANCE, BIGOTRY OR BEING BIGOTRY-ADJACENT OR USED BY BIGOTS?