Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Jimmy Higgins]

And also: WHY IS MY SUGGESTION OF UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL STALLS FOR DRESSING AND SHOWERING NOT OK?

This was how showers were situated in college dorms where showers were shared. Individual stalls. They were separated as male/female floors, but bathrooms /showers had individual stalls. Waterparks are the same. It isn't as efficient, and would require some modifications at many places I'd figure. It'd improve on privacy for all.

 

[Toni]

And also: WHY IS MY SUGGESTION OF UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL STALLS FOR DRESSING AND SHOWERING NOT OK?

This was how showers were situated in college dorms where showers were shared. Individual stalls. They were separated as male/female floors, but bathrooms /showers had individual stalls. Waterparks are the same. It isn't as efficient, and would require some modifications at many places I'd figure. It'd improve on privacy for all.

Same situation when I lived in a dorm. Usually women avoided the shower area if there was some guy in there with his girlfriend even with stalls. Privacy, etc. There were definitely one or two guys who lived in my dorm that would have caused an immediate alarm: they were known not good guys.

 

[Politesse]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

You have a point; I somewhat misread Politesse's post.

Women have every right to be afraid of men's feelings: Feelings of rage. Feelings of power. Feelings of revenge. Men's feelings start wars, cause women to be beaten, raped, murdered, to lose their children, to be denied appropriate medical care. For the short list. Everything you mentioned fearing a woman's feelings for, women feel frightened that men can do to them because they do it. One of those requires an exposed penis.

They have every right to be afraid of aggressive feelings. Whether those are "men's" feelings or just human feelings, that's a big distinction.

Do "white people" have a right to feel afraid of "black people"'s"feelings?

I am afraid of certain feelings I've seen coming from women.

I am afraid of those individual women.

I am not afraid of "women's feelings". I have seen those feelings come from people who claim to be men. I have seen the other feelings coming from people who claim to be women. I see no reason to doubt their claims so they are just "people"'s feelings and they certainly don't belong to "men" or "women".

I recall a movement based on feelings that started a war on drugs.

I recall several "PANIC! THINK OF THE CHILDREN" movements that resulted in untold waves of child abuse and autistic suppression.

And no, "one of them" does not require an exposed penis. A broom handle, thumb, or in one case a BIC pen are enough to violate just about anyone. It has sometimes been effected merely with a closed door in an unrecorded room on the basis that one party would be believed while the other would not. I am sure in some cases clothing stayed on entirely, but a rape still happened...

Sometimes it's the person with the penis getting down on all fours or shitting their pants or whatever for the rapist.

The fact is, you judge men as "probably rapist" while you judge women as "probably not".

Making that judgement on the basis of ownership of a penis is as apt as making the judgement that someone has a rape fetish on the basis that they have breasts.

You can't just assume things on the basis of external anatomy.

You shouldn't.

And if you are participating in circle-jerks where you just reaffirm for you and your friends that your prejudices are sound, then it sounds a lot like that whole "blacks commit half the crime" canard.

No one yet has told me HOW a woman in the women's locker room is supposed to KNOW that the naked stranger standing next to her in the shower is a transwoman and no threat. NO ONE. I've typed out that question repeatedly in this thread but everyone ignores it including people who tell me I'm being stupid or my feelings don't matter.

EVERYONE accusing me of bigotry or being bigotry-adjacent ignores that I've repeatedly suggested that universal stalls with doors are the best way to protect everyone's privacy.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of feelings. It's what people do or don't do that people might need to fear. Or at least anticipate.

The very sad fact is that at least 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Men are also victims of sexual assault. Transpeople, queer, gender non-specific people have high rates of sexual assault and rape. And children as well, which is the most tragic. We have better stats on women and sexual assault but most people acknowledge that 1 in 4 is probably an underestimation. Rape and sexual assault is under reported across the spectrum, for many reasons but most often because the assailant is someone the victim knows and is often dependent on for housing, economic support, etc. It is indeed shocking and confusing to be assaulted by someone you know and thought you could trust, with no issues of dependency. I know a number of women who have been raped by someone they knew and thought they could trust. None went to the police, even with my urging. Or to the hospital, even with my urging.

I am 100% NOT questioning the right of every single person, whatever their gender or sex or sexual orientation or configuration of their genitals or whether or not they are on the LBGTQ spectrum to be able to use gym facilities and shower in comfort and safety.

I'm asking HOW WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHEN THAT NAKED STRANGER WITH A PENIS IS A THREAT IN THE WOMEN'S LOCKER ROOM AND WHEN THEY ARE NOT?

And also: WHY IS MY SUGGESTION OF UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL STALLS FOR DRESSING AND SHOWERING NOT OK?

And finally: WHY IS MY ASKING THE ABOVE QUESTION OR MAKING THE ABOVE SUGGESTION A SIGN OF NON-ACCEPTANCE, BIGOTRY OR BEING BIGOTRY-ADJACENT OR USED BY BIGOTS?

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

Cruelly?

 

[Politesse]

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

Cruelly?

Yes. Trans women are being talked about (never to) incredibly cruelly in this thread.

 

[Toni]

Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.

Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.

AFAIK Loren is not a woman, trans or otherwise.

How does Politesse's post imply I'm female?

You have a point; I somewhat misread Politesse's post.

Women have every right to be afraid of men's feelings: Feelings of rage. Feelings of power. Feelings of revenge. Men's feelings start wars, cause women to be beaten, raped, murdered, to lose their children, to be denied appropriate medical care. For the short list. Everything you mentioned fearing a woman's feelings for, women feel frightened that men can do to them because they do it. One of those requires an exposed penis.

They have every right to be afraid of aggressive feelings. Whether those are "men's" feelings or just human feelings, that's a big distinction.

Do "white people" have a right to feel afraid of "black people"'s"feelings?

I am afraid of certain feelings I've seen coming from women.

I am afraid of those individual women.

I am not afraid of "women's feelings". I have seen those feelings come from people who claim to be men. I have seen the other feelings coming from people who claim to be women. I see no reason to doubt their claims so they are just "people"'s feelings and they certainly don't belong to "men" or "women".

I recall a movement based on feelings that started a war on drugs.

I recall several "PANIC! THINK OF THE CHILDREN" movements that resulted in untold waves of child abuse and autistic suppression.

And no, "one of them" does not require an exposed penis. A broom handle, thumb, or in one case a BIC pen are enough to violate just about anyone. It has sometimes been effected merely with a closed door in an unrecorded room on the basis that one party would be believed while the other would not. I am sure in some cases clothing stayed on entirely, but a rape still happened...

Sometimes it's the person with the penis getting down on all fours or shitting their pants or whatever for the rapist.

The fact is, you judge men as "probably rapist" while you judge women as "probably not".

Making that judgement on the basis of ownership of a penis is as apt as making the judgement that someone has a rape fetish on the basis that they have breasts.

You can't just assume things on the basis of external anatomy.

You shouldn't.

And if you are participating in circle-jerks where you just reaffirm for you and your friends that your prejudices are sound, then it sounds a lot like that whole "blacks commit half the crime" canard.

No one yet has told me HOW a woman in the women's locker room is supposed to KNOW that the naked stranger standing next to her in the shower is a transwoman and no threat. NO ONE. I've typed out that question repeatedly in this thread but everyone ignores it including people who tell me I'm being stupid or my feelings don't matter.

EVERYONE accusing me of bigotry or being bigotry-adjacent ignores that I've repeatedly suggested that universal stalls with doors are the best way to protect everyone's privacy.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of feelings. It's what people do or don't do that people might need to fear. Or at least anticipate.

The very sad fact is that at least 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Men are also victims of sexual assault. Transpeople, queer, gender non-specific people have high rates of sexual assault and rape. And children as well, which is the most tragic. We have better stats on women and sexual assault but most people acknowledge that 1 in 4 is probably an underestimation. Rape and sexual assault is under reported across the spectrum, for many reasons but most often because the assailant is someone the victim knows and is often dependent on for housing, economic support, etc. It is indeed shocking and confusing to be assaulted by someone you know and thought you could trust, with no issues of dependency. I know a number of women who have been raped by someone they knew and thought they could trust. None went to the police, even with my urging. Or to the hospital, even with my urging.

I am 100% NOT questioning the right of every single person, whatever their gender or sex or sexual orientation or configuration of their genitals or whether or not they are on the LBGTQ spectrum to be able to use gym facilities and shower in comfort and safety.

I'm asking HOW WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHEN THAT NAKED STRANGER WITH A PENIS IS A THREAT IN THE WOMEN'S LOCKER ROOM AND WHEN THEY ARE NOT?

And also: WHY IS MY SUGGESTION OF UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL STALLS FOR DRESSING AND SHOWERING NOT OK?

And finally: WHY IS MY ASKING THE ABOVE QUESTION OR MAKING THE ABOVE SUGGESTION A SIGN OF NON-ACCEPTANCE, BIGOTRY OR BEING BIGOTRY-ADJACENT OR USED BY BIGOTS?

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

Well, not everybody but cool. It would have been nice to hear earlier and sooner than today.

As far as scapegoating: I’m not young and yeah, I DO feel scapegoated.

I am NOT acting cruelly towards anyone. I’m expressing genuine concern. For ALL women.

Exactly HOW am I being cruel?

If there are any trans women to talk TO in this thread, l’m unaware.

Let me say that this insistence that women must simply accept naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room without question or protest and that me expressing reasons that women might be concerned is bigotry and cruel to trans women is quite cruel itself.

Refusing to consider that women actually know what they are talking about is cruel. It’s not at all unusual. It’s just the milder end of the spectrum.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

Cruelly?

Yes. Trans women are being talked about (never to) incredibly cruelly in this thread.

With respect to Toni's posting? Absolutely not.

 

[TomC]

Yes. Trans women are being talked about (never to) incredibly cruelly in this thread.

Where?

I don't think it's happened even once.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

And finally: WHY IS MY ASKING THE ABOVE QUESTION OR MAKING THE ABOVE SUGGESTION A SIGN OF NON-ACCEPTANCE, BIGOTRY OR BEING BIGOTRY-ADJACENT OR USED BY BIGOTS?

Well, the people telling you that obviously aren't trying to persuade you. So, presumably, they're trying to silence you.

 

[Politesse]

Well, not everybody but cool. It would have been nice to hear earlier and sooner than today.

Toni, I've conceded your supposed main point a half dozen times in this thread. Not only have you ignored this, you outright turned around and contradicted your own argument not fifteen posts ago. I wrote:

There's no reason businesses could not implement this solution right now, and indeed many do in the more civilized parts of the country. But grotesque fearmongering, transphobia, pseudoscientific misinformation about intersex people, and just general cruelty are not needed in order to implement this solution. You can just build these facilities, with no need for any sort of hate speech whatsoever.

You replied:

I assume you mean locker rooms with stalls with doors? Lots of places really don't have money that they can or are willing to direct towards making women's spaces safer.

I agree with you, and suddenly you're asking whether your own (supposedly, "only") solution is practical and viable, and said no more about it.

And now you're saying, not two pages later, that I never agreed with the need for universal stalls at all. Despite having quote-replied a post in which I did exactly that. Less than a day ago.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I assume you mean locker rooms with stalls with doors? Lots of places really don't have money that they can or are willing to direct towards making women's spaces safer.

I agree with you, and suddenly you're asking whether your own (supposedly, "only") solution is practical and viable, and said no more about it.

And now you're saying, not two pages later, that I never agreed with the need for universal stalls at all. Despite having quote-replied a post in which I did exactly that. Less than a day ago.

Then what are we arguing about?

 

[Toni]

Well, not everybody but cool. It would have been nice to hear earlier and sooner than today.

Toni, I've conceded your supposed main point a half dozen times in this thread. Not only have you ignored this, you outright turned around and contradicted your own argument not fifteen posts ago. I wrote:

There's no reason businesses could not implement this solution right now, and indeed many do in the more civilized parts of the country. But grotesque fearmongering, transphobia, pseudoscientific misinformation about intersex people, and just general cruelty are not needed in order to implement this solution. You can just build these facilities, with no need for any sort of hate speech whatsoever.

You replied:

I assume you mean locker rooms with stalls with doors? Lots of places really don't have money that they can or are willing to direct towards making women's spaces safer.

I agree with you, and suddenly you're asking whether your own (supposedly, "only") solution is practical and viable, and said no more about it.

And now you're saying, not two pages later, that I never agreed with the need for universal stalls at all. Despite having quote-replied a post in which I did exactly that. Less than a day ago.

I've asked, repeatedly, what other solutions there were because I've been told, repeatedly in this thread that there is no need for separate stalls and that women should just get over it.

I'm sorry if I have missed some of your posts or have misread some. I feel very much as though you have also missed or misread some of mine. I am certain that this is not intentional on the part of either of us.

 

[Toni]

I'm going to make a suggestion that probably no one will take me up on but: Watch the film She Said. It's available on Amazon Prime right now, perhaps other platforms. Not so much to inform you about the whole Harvey Weinstein issue but because if you listen to how women talk about how they were expected to tolerate behavior, to accommodate it, to work around it and how little any of that did in the way of protecting them. It's a small, very small taste of what girls grow up hearing, absorbing, incorporating into their behavior. Not to make a fuss. Not to expect to have boundaries. Not to expect to be believed. Just to expect and be prepared and to deal with it on your own. In silence.

 

[Politesse]

I'm going to make a suggestion that probably no one will take me up on but: Watch the film She Said. It's available on Amazon Prime right now, perhaps other platforms. Not so much to inform you about the whole Harvey Weinstein issue but because if you listen to how women talk about how they were expected to tolerate behavior, to accommodate it, to work around it and how little any of that did in the way of protecting them. It's a small, very small taste of what girls grow up hearing, absorbing, incorporating into their behavior. Not to make a fuss. Not to expect to have boundaries. Not to expect to be believed. Just to expect and be prepared and to deal with it on your own. In silence.

Though I believe you genuinely do, I don't understand how you can care about the actual issue of sexual abuse of women by men in positions of power, and come to the conclusion that trans women in gym locker rooms, who in terms of social privilege basically the exact opposite of a man like Harvey Weinstein, are the real problem here. You can heap whatever persecutions you like on trans women, and it will not make anyone an iota safer. Not women, not men, nor anyone else. They aren't the group most likely to commit those kinds of crimes, nor is it an effective approach to crime to just blindly persecute entire classes of people on the basis of what some of them have allegedly done, even if they were. By criminalizing the actions of the innocent while turning a blind eye to the crimes of guilty, we make things worse out there for everyone, not better.

 

[Politesse]

I assume you mean locker rooms with stalls with doors? Lots of places really don't have money that they can or are willing to direct towards making women's spaces safer.

I agree with you, and suddenly you're asking whether your own (supposedly, "only") solution is practical and viable, and said no more about it.

And now you're saying, not two pages later, that I never agreed with the need for universal stalls at all. Despite having quote-replied a post in which I did exactly that. Less than a day ago.

Then what are we arguing about?

The inappropriateness of scapegoating trans women for crimes there is no evidence they are responsible for. If she truly cares about addressing the issue of sexual harassment and abuse, and I believe she does, I would like to ask Toni to stop attacking victims, and start focusing on perpetrators. Not pretend ones in pretend situations, but actual ones in known situations.

Why is it necessary to engage in all this scaremongering about the supposed invasion of women's spaces by trans women, and nasty statements about how everyone with a penis is a potential rapist, if what she's arguing for is just a more inclusive design approach with respect to locker rooms?

I note that this all was originally in a thread about drag shows. What, you may ask, do drag shows have to do with the design principles of women's locker rooms? The answer: well, nothing, actually. Except that the alt-right believes drag shows are an evil attempt to normalize trans identities. So a now-banned member started scare-mongering about the gym changing rooms issue, and Toni fell for the scary "They're coming for your gym membership" narrative hook line and sinker.

It isn't really about the stalls. Toni has evaded any attempts to talk about the stalls directly, in fact. What she wants to talk about are penises and her feelings about possibly encountering them in locker rooms, however unlikely that might be. Her "feelings", as she has said. Or rather "women's feelings".

 

[TomC]

So a now-banned member started scare-mongering about the gym changing rooms issue, and Toni fell for the scary "They're coming for your gym membership" narrative hook line and sinker.

This is totally crap.

@Toni didn't fall for any "scary" stuff that's new or different. Nor did I.

Metaphor might now be banned, but he was correct about this subject. Sex is a characteristic that can be objectively assessed nearly always. Gender cannot be.
Ever.

Anybody, including sexual predators, can change their gender to suit their predilections. Like it or not, Hannah Tubbs is an MtF trans person.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I assume you mean locker rooms with stalls with doors? Lots of places really don't have money that they can or are willing to direct towards making women's spaces safer.

I agree with you, and suddenly you're asking whether your own (supposedly, "only") solution is practical and viable, and said no more about it.

And now you're saying, not two pages later, that I never agreed with the need for universal stalls at all. Despite having quote-replied a post in which I did exactly that. Less than a day ago.

Then what are we arguing about?

The inappropriateness of scapegoating trans women for crimes there is no evidence they are responsible for. If she truly cares about addressing the issue of sexual harassment and abuse, and I believe she does, I would like to ask Toni to stop attacking victims, and start focusing on perpetrators. Not pretend ones in pretend situations, but actual ones in known situations.

Why is it necessary to engage in all this scaremongering about the supposed invasion of women's spaces by trans women, and nasty statements about how everyone with a penis is a potential rapist, if what she's arguing for is just a more inclusive design approach with respect to locker rooms?

I note that this all was originally in a thread about drag shows. What, you may ask, do drag shows have to do with the design principles of women's locker rooms? The answer: well, nothing, actually. Except that the alt-right believes drag shows are an evil attempt to normalize trans identities. So a now-banned member started scare-mongering about the gym changing rooms issue, and Toni fell for the scary "They're coming for your gym membership" narrative hook line and sinker.

It isn't really about the stalls. Toni has evaded any attempts to talk about the stalls directly, in fact. What she wants to talk about are penises and her feelings about possibly encountering them in locker rooms, however unlikely that might be. Her "feelings", as she has said. Or rather "women's feelings".

When have I evaded talking about stalls directly?

I’ve said that I think they should be universal. Yes, I’ve also said that some institutions/localities would balk because of the cost. Because that’s what happened Title IX mandated the inclusion of girls in opportunities for competitive sports: not stalls but that there were no funds for girls’ locker rooms. In my town, they tore down the YWCA—and built a huge brand spanking new WMCA, acquiring some primo city park property to do so.

However times really have changed: girls sports are reported on local news channels on equal footing as boys sports. This is an enormous sea change. So perhaps there would not be such a backlash as I fear.

No where have I scapegoated trans women! I’ve pointed out that women have no way of knowing if the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a transwoman or a threat and it’s a judgement they are supposed to make instantaneously while naked and vulnerable. They are damned if they make a mistake either way: it’s it’s a creep and he attacks someone then why didn’t they speak up? We’re they turned on? Into it? If it’s a trans woman, how dare they frighten her or hurt her feelings or make her feel unwelcome! Trust me: I have zero desire to traumatize any woman, trans, cis, gay, bi, gender no confirming, etc. Or men, same spectrum. Loren thinks it’s a non issue as he tends to do anytime it’s not something that directly affects him.

Meanwhile I still haven’t a clue how women are supposed to make a correct judgement and feel safe or comfortable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

Is that what you would say if you woke up and found a naked stranger with a penis in your bedroom?

Before you say that's a different case: you would not expect to find a naked stranger, penis or no, in your bedroom: Women do NOT expect to find a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room.

You continue to be unable to focus on the important part--comparing situations where nobody should be there vs situations where you say nobody with a penis should be there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You keep complaining that no one is paying attention to what you say is your "main point", but the reason everyone is ignoring the stall thing is because it isn't controversial. Everyone already agrees with you about the stalls. The transphobia, and scapegoating of young women, is the problem here. The only offensive thing you're doing here is acting cruelly toward other human beings who have done nothing to you.

I wouldn't say that everyone completely agrees--we all agree that stalls would be good but she wants them mandated and some of us disagree with that.