Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Loren Pechtel]

Though I believe you genuinely do, I don't understand how you can care about the actual issue of sexual abuse of women by men in positions of power, and come to the conclusion that trans women in gym locker rooms, who in terms of social privilege basically the exact opposite of a man like Harvey Weinstein, are the real problem here. You can heap whatever persecutions you like on trans women, and it will not make anyone an iota safer. Not women, not men, nor anyone else. They aren't the group most likely to commit those kinds of crimes, nor is it an effective approach to crime to just blindly persecute entire classes of people on the basis of what some of them have allegedly done, even if they were. By criminalizing the actions of the innocent while turning a blind eye to the crimes of guilty, we make things worse out there for everyone, not better.

Exactly. The threat is real, the target identification is the problem. There are bad men out there, it's just they're not walking around women's locker rooms naked.

 

[Jarhyn]

Though I believe you genuinely do, I don't understand how you can care about the actual issue of sexual abuse of women by men in positions of power, and come to the conclusion that trans women in gym locker rooms, who in terms of social privilege basically the exact opposite of a man like Harvey Weinstein, are the real problem here. You can heap whatever persecutions you like on trans women, and it will not make anyone an iota safer. Not women, not men, nor anyone else. They aren't the group most likely to commit those kinds of crimes, nor is it an effective approach to crime to just blindly persecute entire classes of people on the basis of what some of them have allegedly done, even if they were. By criminalizing the actions of the innocent while turning a blind eye to the crimes of guilty, we make things worse out there for everyone, not better.

Exactly. The threat is real, the target identification is the problem. There are bad men out there, it's just they're not walking around women's locker rooms naked.

To be fair, some would probably try.

It's an unfortunate reality that some folks are just that shitty and stupid.

Fortunately, vanishingly few are that stupid.

The ones who are that stupid get called out quickly for behavior nobody should perform in any restroom ever.

The fact is, even if there was a space off to the side where people could pee standing up in relative privacy, I would seek building security in any building I was in if someone was walking around with their genitals out or their pants down outside a stall over the age of maybe 7-8?

Under that age it's generally understandable, and unthreatening and I can look away with levity.

For that matter, the vast majority of straight people in locker rooms I have been in hide their genitals all the time no matter how they are endowed.

They'll hold a towel over it until they are facing the wall.

I don't think seeing genitals in the shower is a common thing even in public showers.

Unless you're the sort that goes all looky-lou in the showers? But that's a "you" problem, if someone is.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

Is that what you would say if you woke up and found a naked stranger with a penis in your bedroom?

Before you say that's a different case: you would not expect to find a naked stranger, penis or no, in your bedroom: Women do NOT expect to find a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room.

You continue to be unable to focus on the important part--comparing situations where nobody should be there vs situations where you say nobody with a penis should be there.

No: I'm talking about two situations where a naked stranger with a penis is a surprise and potential threat.

You only recognize the threat when it might be you who is surprised while in a vulnerable state. I don't find this surprising.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

WHY are women triggered in a fight/flight response when they unexpectedly see a naked stranger with a penis in a space they do not expect to see such a person? Could it possibly be that people with penises are more likely to do them harm? One of those harms involving exposing their penis? Not that men don't do plenty of damage that is not rape.

 

[Oleg]

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

It's autogynephilia. They get turned on at the thought of themselves as women. The "europhia boner." Not goting to get that in the guy's locker room. But why should women be forced to be part of a man's sexual fantasy?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

She isn't saying they can't be in the women's locker room, only that individual stalls should be used by all.

She isn't complaining about the risk of them causing sexual assault (that is Emily Lake). So this not about their identity but an inability to judge a potential threat from someone else using this as cover.

Her 'fears' are being exaggerated and discounted as irrational. If you turned around in your bathroom shower and another naked man was there, I wouldn't say your were being irrational if you became alarmed. I know... my neighbor gets like that all the time and then calls the police. PRUDE!

Girls are taught to fear unexpected naked men. It becomes instinctual. It has nothing to do with race or identity, but the threat of gruesome sexual assault and rape. Talking rather primal concerns.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. The threat is real, the target identification is the problem. There are bad men out there, it's just they're not walking around women's locker rooms naked.

To be fair, some would probably try.

It's an unfortunate reality that some folks are just that shitty and stupid.

Fortunately, vanishingly few are that stupid.

The ones who are that stupid get called out quickly for behavior nobody should perform in any restroom ever.

Note that she's talking about locker rooms more than restrooms--restrooms usually have stalls now.

I'm just saying that a bad guy isn't going to tip their hand like that before selecting a victim. The mugger doesn't walk around with his gun in his hand.

The fact is, even if there was a space off to the side where people could pee standing up in relative privacy, I would seek building security in any building I was in if someone was walking around with their genitals out or their pants down outside a stall over the age of maybe 7-8?

Under that age it's generally understandable, and unthreatening and I can look away with levity.

For that matter, the vast majority of straight people in locker rooms I have been in hide their genitals all the time no matter how they are endowed.

They'll hold a towel over it until they are facing the wall.

I don't think seeing genitals in the shower is a common thing even in public showers.

Unless you're the sort that goes all looky-lou in the showers? But that's a "you" problem, if someone is.

It's not a common thing these days, but it used to be. My understanding is you'll still see some of the older people who don't try to hide it in locker rooms. However, they'll be doing whatever they're doing--not standing around observing. And note that I'm fine with a requirement of either ID showing trans or a caregiver situation being required to permit such access.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

Is that what you would say if you woke up and found a naked stranger with a penis in your bedroom?

Before you say that's a different case: you would not expect to find a naked stranger, penis or no, in your bedroom: Women do NOT expect to find a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room.

You continue to be unable to focus on the important part--comparing situations where nobody should be there vs situations where you say nobody with a penis should be there.

No: I'm talking about two situations where a naked stranger with a penis is a surprise and potential threat.

You only recognize the threat when it might be you who is surprised while in a vulnerable state. I don't find this surprising.

Surprise, yes, but society shouldn't ban things which surprise you.

Potential threat--you still haven't established that said penis is a threat, especially since you ignore the fact that we permit those of races more likely to be criminal--an actual threat.

And a lack of clothes somehow makes you actually more vulnerable to attack?? It makes you feel vulnerable, it doesn't make it actually so.

 

[Jarhyn]

Exactly. The threat is real, the target identification is the problem. There are bad men out there, it's just they're not walking around women's locker rooms naked.

To be fair, some would probably try.

It's an unfortunate reality that some folks are just that shitty and stupid.

Fortunately, vanishingly few are that stupid.

The ones who are that stupid get called out quickly for behavior nobody should perform in any restroom ever.

Note that she's talking about locker rooms more than restrooms--restrooms usually have stalls now.

I'm just saying that a bad guy isn't going to tip their hand like that before selecting a victim. The mugger doesn't walk around with his gun in his hand.

The fact is, even if there was a space off to the side where people could pee standing up in relative privacy, I would seek building security in any building I was in if someone was walking around with their genitals out or their pants down outside a stall over the age of maybe 7-8?

Under that age it's generally understandable, and unthreatening and I can look away with levity.

For that matter, the vast majority of straight people in locker rooms I have been in hide their genitals all the time no matter how they are endowed.

They'll hold a towel over it until they are facing the wall.

I don't think seeing genitals in the shower is a common thing even in public showers.

Unless you're the sort that goes all looky-lou in the showers? But that's a "you" problem, if someone is.

It's not a common thing these days, but it used to be. My understanding is you'll still see some of the older people who don't try to hide it in locker rooms. However, they'll be doing whatever they're doing--not standing around observing. And note that I'm fine with a requirement of either ID showing trans or a caregiver situation being required to permit such access.

I would rather being able to merely show that you don't produce sperms through such a card.

That's what the real issue is: people don't want to share a space with people who carry risk of causing impregnation.

I think that this risk is in some ways like AIDS fear of gay people... Some evil fucks certainly exist, but they are the vanishing minority, and are joined by straight evil fucks.

If there is something to be argued for in excluding those who produce and eject sperm from their bodies, I am open to hearing arguments on those lines, but the fact is, they would need to be more compelling than arguments to exclude people with HIV from gay clubs (which would be pretty fucked up!)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

It doesn't have to be "wrong" to be problematic. This isn't a judgmental point of view, this is logistical.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

 

[Politesse]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

I think that instead of labeling violence of a sexual nature as inherently "male", we just take an even hand across all violence, and especially sexual violence.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

Discriminate? I am talking about addressing physical and sexual violence.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

Discriminate? I am talking about addressing physical and sexual violence.

And labeling it as specifically "male".

It is the prejudiced presentation of sexual violence as being fundamentally "male" that is the issue here.

And this isn't even starting to address the forms of violence more common among women, which are also very bad and mostly operated through social rather than physical mechanisms.

 

[Oleg]

It is the prejudiced presentation of sexual violence as being fundamentally "male" that is the issue here.

It may not be fundamentally male, but it's predominately male.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is the prejudiced presentation of sexual violence as being fundamentally "male" that is the issue here.

It may not be fundamentally male, but it's predominately male.

And crime is committed predominantly by black people yet it is not appropriate to be prejudiced against people who are black.

You aren't about to get around the fact that prejudiced judgements are prejudiced.

You cannot judge a population by bad behavior of a minority, and those that do are prejudiced shits.