Giuliani Sued for Sexual Assault

[TSwizzle]

TSwizzle, it's not worth belaboring the badinage except to say that you seem wedded to the "Forever Tuck" story that echoes Giuliani's description of what he was doing. He was on the bed "thinking he was going to get laid", but then she had disheveled his shirt, so he had to tuck it in.

I'm only wedded to what I saw.

I suppose that is plausible. Clearly, it disturbs you to think that he might have been fondling himself, although it seems to be a practice that Dunphy describes in her complaint.

The idea of Giuliano fondling himself clearly arouses you. How many times have you watched that video now? Bookmarked for sure. Don't be ashamed.

Your description was that she gave him blow jobs for two years, which meant that she knew about the sexual services requirement when he hired her.

Behave yourself.

You saw what you preferred to see.

Sure, Jan.

I wouldn't rule out that his hand down his pants wasn't him fondling himself.

Because that's what you fantasize about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Democrats aren't the party of "family values". Plenty of dems fucking around, putting their penises in the wrong vaginas... the issue at hand was the bluster of a reaction from the GOP, who too were also putting their penises in the wrong vaginas.

But the Repubs are much more likely to be not welcome in the wrong vaginas.

 

[Emily Lake]

Democrats aren't the party of "family values". Plenty of dems fucking around, putting their penises in the wrong vaginas... the issue at hand was the bluster of a reaction from the GOP, who too were also putting their penises in the wrong vaginas.

But the Repubs are much more likely to be not welcome in the wrong vaginas.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I feel like there's supposed to be a joke in here, but I'm just not getting it.

 

[Copernicus]

I wouldn't rule out that his hand down his pants wasn't him fondling himself.

Because that's what you fantasize about.

I fantasize about him NOT fondling himself? All I was saying was what I said before, that maybe he really was tucking in his shirt. After all, Sacha Baron Cohen did edit the entire footage that was shown in the film, and we have no raw video of what really happened. So maybe is was less raw than he made it look, although the pat on her back seemed a little too intimate and it was puzzling that he was asking her for her personal email and phone number prior to that.

It's worth noting that this movie scene was filmed after his divorce and when he was allegedly abusing Ms. Dunphy.

 

[TSwizzle]

I wouldn't rule out that his hand down his pants wasn't him fondling himself.

Because that's what you fantasize about.

I fantasize about him NOT fondling himself? All I was saying was what I said before, that maybe he really was tucking in his shirt. After all, Sacha Baron Cohen did edit the entire footage that was shown in the film, and we have no raw video of what really happened. So maybe is was less raw than he made it look, although the pat on her back seemed a little too intimate and it was puzzling that he was asking her for her personal email and phone number prior to that.

It's worth noting that this movie scene was filmed after his divorce and when he was allegedly abusing Ms. Dunphy.

The Cohen skit is just Dunphy’s attorney clutching at straws. You seem to be way more invested in it than I am so do carry on.

Oh, also in the claim is an “exhibit b” (or something) which contains a link to a Daily Mail story about Giuliani shagging some chick while he was married or something. The Daily Mail ffs, what kind of attorney has Dunphy got with? Another Avenatti maybe.

The whole thing is sketchy af.

 

[Toni]

Democrats aren't the party of "family values". Plenty of dems fucking around, putting their penises in the wrong vaginas... the issue at hand was the bluster of a reaction from the GOP, who too were also putting their penises in the wrong vaginas.

But the Repubs are much more likely to be not welcome in the wrong vaginas.

Oh, I think that’s bull shit.

I think that sexual infidelity knows no political boundaries. I think sexual predators have no single political leaning or party affiliation.

A great many politicians have engaged in sexual shenanigans, and not always involving vaginas, either. The old agave is that power is an aphrodisiac may be true. The fact is that the public is much more likely to know and to care about the private doings of famous people.

 

[Arctish]

TSwizzle, it's not worth belaboring the badinage except to say that you seem wedded to the "Forever Tuck" story that echoes Giuliani's description of what he was doing. He was on the bed "thinking he was going to get laid", but then she had disheveled his shirt, so he had to tuck it in.

I'm only wedded to what I saw.

It's too bad Cohen interrupted the scene instead of letting it play out.

Imagine watching Giuliani lying down on his back to tuck in the front of his shirt, then sitting up thereby untucking the back of his shirt, then flopping over onto his stomach to tuck in his shirt, then realizing that reaching back in that position disarrayed his shirt in the front so he rolls over onto his back again to tuck in the front, then trying to stand without disturbing the tucking, then lying back down because now both the front and the back are disarrayed and loose, rinse and repeat until he finally gives up, stands up, and tucks in his shirt like a normal person.

That would have been funny.

 

[Toni]

Some women fight back. Not all women do. There’s serious risk of greater injury or even death, either way. And then, there’s all kinds of other risks. I think a lot comes down to whether you are fight or flight in your response.

In any case, no one deserves to be sexually assaulted.

The "fight or flight" reflex is misnamed, it should involve "freeze" as well. Men tend to fight first, flee second, and freeze rarely. Women tend to freeze, then flee, and fight only when there's not much other option or when there are kids involved. In many situations, fighting can lead to severe injury, fleeing can lead to being chased followed by severe injury, and freezing leads to moderate injury but a higher likelihood of overall survival.

Maybe because I recognize that I am a ‘fight’ reflex, something that I work hard to control in certain situations, I don’t see it as ‘most women’ will freeze. I don’t know if that is true ( do you have data?) or if it is observed, if this is a conditioned response.

 

[Copernicus]

I wouldn't rule out that his hand down his pants wasn't him fondling himself.

Because that's what you fantasize about.

I fantasize about him NOT fondling himself? All I was saying was what I said before, that maybe he really was tucking in his shirt. After all, Sacha Baron Cohen did edit the entire footage that was shown in the film, and we have no raw video of what really happened. So maybe is was less raw than he made it look, although the pat on her back seemed a little too intimate and it was puzzling that he was asking her for her personal email and phone number prior to that.

It's worth noting that this movie scene was filmed after his divorce and when he was allegedly abusing Ms. Dunphy.

The Cohen skit is just Dunphy’s attorney clutching at straws. You seem to be way more invested in it than I am so do carry on.

The Cohen skit proves nothing by itself, but it is part of a pattern of behavior that might convince a jury.

Oh, also in the claim is an “exhibit b” (or something) which contains a link to a Daily Mail story about Giuliani shagging some chick while he was married or something. The Daily Mail ffs, what kind of attorney has Dunphy got with? Another Avenatti maybe.

The whole thing is sketchy af.

I take it that you did not watch Lawrence O'Donnell's interview with her attorney in the clip I cited, just the segment of Cohen's interview with Variety. He strikes me as someone who is a lot more competent than Avenatti was. We'll see how well he does in the future.

 

[Gospel]

WTF are you talking about?

Your post.
The one I quoted. The one thoroughly soaked in male privilege.

The one where you assumed that everyone has the empowerment, options, reserves, and doangivadam men take for granted.

You and your privilege sounded positively white.

My wife, my daughter, my mother, my female cousins, my sister, my dead grandmother wouldn't be <Mod self Edit> performing sexual favors for a job.

How do you know any of that?

Maybe your female relatives just didn't mention it to you when it happened,
or ever. Because you're a man and you just wouldn't get it. Your alpha male bullshit would just cause them more problems than they already have.

They'd rather join the overwhelming number of women who do not report sexual misbehavior than mention it to you? Maybe that's why you don't think anyone you're related to has ever been a victim of male sexual misconduct?
Tom

How do you know any of that?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Democrats aren't the party of "family values". Plenty of dems fucking around, putting their penises in the wrong vaginas... the issue at hand was the bluster of a reaction from the GOP, who too were also putting their penises in the wrong vaginas.

But the Repubs are much more likely to be not welcome in the wrong vaginas.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I feel like there's supposed to be a joke in here, but I'm just not getting it.

Not a joke, an accusation. There is a clear difference. It isn't accurate, however. Sociopaths do as sociopaths due and that isn't tied to partisan positions.

It is sad that in America, someone like Jimmy Carter is castigated and completely and utterly humiliated by people, who at the same time, want their politicians not to be sociopathic cults of personality. Time will tell about President Obama, but as far as we can tell, he was pretty clean, especially by political standards. And he was targeted too. Relentlessly attacked. By the same fucking hypocrites that voted for Trump, who bragged about doing it.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The most damaging part of all of this is not the sexual sleeze. It is the other stuff. Tax fraud. Selling pardons. That is the stuff that could eventually send people to prison. This could be fun. I want to hear the Democratic leaders howling for blood. Congressional hearings. Special prosecuers. DOJ involvement. IRS investigations.
I am tired of these bastards skating again and again.

 

[TomC]

WTF are you talking about?

Your post.
The one I quoted. The one thoroughly soaked in male privilege.

The one where you assumed that everyone has the empowerment, options, reserves, and doangivadam men take for granted.

You and your privilege sounded positively white.

My wife, my daughter, my mother, my female cousins, my sister, my dead grandmother wouldn't be <Mod self Edit> performing sexual favors for a job.

How do you know any of that?

Maybe your female relatives just didn't mention it to you when it happened,
or ever. Because you're a man and you just wouldn't get it. Your alpha male bullshit would just cause them more problems than they already have.

They'd rather join the overwhelming number of women who do not report sexual misbehavior than mention it to you? Maybe that's why you don't think anyone you're related to has ever been a victim of male sexual misconduct?
Tom

How do you know any of that?

How do I know any of what?

You said none of your female relatives ever told you about sexual misconduct in their workplaces. I believe you.

I also know that zillions of women are the subject of sexual misconduct in the workplace but don't tell anybody. I believe that as well.

So, what are you asking about?
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Some women fight back. Not all women do. There’s serious risk of greater injury or even death, either way. And then, there’s all kinds of other risks. I think a lot comes down to whether you are fight or flight in your response.

In any case, no one deserves to be sexually assaulted.

The "fight or flight" reflex is misnamed, it should involve "freeze" as well. Men tend to fight first, flee second, and freeze rarely. Women tend to freeze, then flee, and fight only when there's not much other option or when there are kids involved. In many situations, fighting can lead to severe injury, fleeing can lead to being chased followed by severe injury, and freezing leads to moderate injury but a higher likelihood of overall survival.

Maybe because I recognize that I am a ‘fight’ reflex, something that I work hard to control in certain situations, I don’t see it as ‘most women’ will freeze. I don’t know if that is true ( do you have data?) or if it is observed, if this is a conditioned response.

No data. Just lots and lots of talking to other women who have been assaulted or raped. A whole lot of women freeze. I doubt it's gong to be exactly the same for every person, just a general tendency that varies by sex. There are also documents talking about the freeze response to threat and trauma in humans, a lot of it in the context of rape and sexual assault.

There is a lot of variation. Some will include "fawn" in the list as well - the tendency to respond to a perceived threat by attempting to appease or please the person doing the threatening. Fairly common in survivors of domestic abuse. Some also draw a distinction between "freeze and "flop". Basically, the big point is that it's not just fight or flight - and the traditional fight/flight research was done almost exclusively on men. Kind of like nearly all medicine and psychology, where women get ignored and are assumed to be just "small men" or whatever idiotic notion led hundreds of years of male practitioners to pretend like women don't exist at all and don't need consideration as being different.

Lots of animals exhibit alternatives to flight or flight when under threat. I think we all know about the "deer in headlights", a form of a freeze response. Similarly, possums playing dead, fainting goats, and chickens are notorious for freezing. My completely un-expert impression is that prey tend to exhibit freeze - then flight - then fight behaviors in terms of frequency, whereas predators are more likely to fight - then flight, with relatively little in the way of freezing once they're past the juvenile stage.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What does fight or flight have to do with sexual harassment at work? This is about sociopathic manipulation of someone that is over a period of time, using employment, money, and opportunity as hooks to make a person compromise on what they would have been willing to do. That stuff can avalanche and lead to some sunk losses and pretty much going all-in because of the previous compromises.

Now I get it... some "people" seem to think it is unfair to the elderly guy who was trying to get sexual favors from a much younger woman. She performed these acts without any threat of violence and she was doing this to get ahead in her career. But really, even if all of those things are true, and this woman had intended all along to score a payday with Giuliani... unless Hugh Heffner or the like, what guy in their 70s would expect any woman would want to give them any sexual favor without an ulterior motive?!

But just to be clear, it is fucking unconscionable to demand your employee suck your dick (presuming the employee wasn't hired to suck said dick). The moral fiber of any person defending any male (forget someone who is over 70!) requesting this from an employee is bankrupt and non-existent. We are supposed to be beyond that point! It is the year 20fucking23. It is supposed to be understood that asking employees for sex is WRONG.

 

[Emily Lake]

What does fight or flight have to do with sexual harassment at work?

Directly... nothing. It developed from Gospel's comment and TomC's response:

Imma keep it 100 wit yawl. If my boss put me in a position that I felt I needed to perform sexual favors to keep my job I'd be gone ASAP. I wouldn't even give them two weeks notice. If anything I'd be in jail for putting that MF in the hospital.

Boy, it's handy being a dude, isn't it?
Tom

Then we kind of got a bit off to the side about how a lot of women aren't as well positioned to meet sexual misbehavior with violence... and then it went into a discussion of freezing being a pretty common threat response in women when it comes to sexual assault.

This is about sociopathic manipulation of someone that is over a period of time, using employment, money, and opportunity as hooks to make a person compromise on what they would have been willing to do. That stuff can avalanche and lead to some sunk losses and pretty much going all-in because of the previous compromises.

Now I get it... some "people" seem to think it is unfair to the elderly guy who was trying to get sexual favors from a much younger woman. She performed these acts without any threat of violence and she was doing this to get ahead in her career. But really, even if all of those things are true, and this woman had intended all along to score a payday with Giuliani... unless Hugh Heffner or the like, what guy in their 70s would expect any woman would want to give them any sexual favor without an ulterior motive?!

But just to be clear, it is fucking unconscionable to demand your employee suck your dick (presuming the employee wasn't hired to suck said dick). The moral fiber of any person defending any male (forget someone who is over 70!) requesting this from an employee is bankrupt and non-existent. We are supposed to be beyond that point! It is the year 20fucking23. It is supposed to be understood that asking employees for sex is WRONG.

Granted, there are some responses I've just skimmed or skipped in this thread... but I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this?

 

[Toni]

Some women fight back. Not all women do. There’s serious risk of greater injury or even death, either way. And then, there’s all kinds of other risks. I think a lot comes down to whether you are fight or flight in your response.

In any case, no one deserves to be sexually assaulted.

The "fight or flight" reflex is misnamed, it should involve "freeze" as well. Men tend to fight first, flee second, and freeze rarely. Women tend to freeze, then flee, and fight only when there's not much other option or when there are kids involved. In many situations, fighting can lead to severe injury, fleeing can lead to being chased followed by severe injury, and freezing leads to moderate injury but a higher likelihood of overall survival.

Maybe because I recognize that I am a ‘fight’ reflex, something that I work hard to control in certain situations, I don’t see it as ‘most women’ will freeze. I don’t know if that is true ( do you have data?) or if it is observed, if this is a conditioned response.

No data. Just lots and lots of talking to other women who have been assaulted or raped. A whole lot of women freeze. I doubt it's gong to be exactly the same for every person, just a general tendency that varies by sex. There are also documents talking about the freeze response to threat and trauma in humans, a lot of it in the context of rape and sexual assault.

There is a lot of variation. Some will include "fawn" in the list as well - the tendency to respond to a perceived threat by attempting to appease or please the person doing the threatening. Fairly common in survivors of domestic abuse. Some also draw a distinction between "freeze and "flop". Basically, the big point is that it's not just fight or flight - and the traditional fight/flight research was done almost exclusively on men. Kind of like nearly all medicine and psychology, where women get ignored and are assumed to be just "small men" or whatever idiotic notion led hundreds of years of male practitioners to pretend like women don't exist at all and don't need consideration as being different.

Lots of animals exhibit alternatives to flight or flight when under threat. I think we all know about the "deer in headlights", a form of a freeze response. Similarly, possums playing dead, fainting goats, and chickens are notorious for freezing. My completely un-expert impression is that prey tend to exhibit freeze - then flight - then fight behaviors in terms of frequency, whereas predators are more likely to fight - then flight, with relatively little in the way of freezing once they're past the juvenile stage.

Yes, women are taught to appease and placate, from a very young age.

Honestly, my first response the first time I was assaulted was sheer shock, retreat and fighting back only when those did not work. Followed by denial denial denial denial...for years. Because other incidents with the same individual kept happening. The shock was just that: shock. I could not comprehend what was being said to me, how someone grabbed my genitals for no reason I could fathom then or since. Still, having grown up hearing about my 'bad temper' and how I 'should not hit others' my impulse was always to avoid and retreat when I could. And question myself: was I doing something to 'lead him on?' although frankly I was too young to have known or understood that phrase. But surely I was doing...something? Eventually, there was an incident that made things really click for me: He was furious with me because I stopped him from breaking his sister's arm. I had had no idea what was causing this person, who could sometimes be the same person I had known for most of my life to become this horrible other person who said filthy things I did not understand or who tried to grab my breast or crotch or whatever. That one incident, though, allowed me to connect rage with sexual assault. And that turned the tide for me. The next incident was the last, the time I hurt him and caused him to fear discovery which would have resulted in some real consequences for him (and terrible ones for everyone else). It was years later before I realized that the look in his eyes when he would assault me was the same look as the time he tried to kill me. Also revelatory. I had blocked out that incident for...decades.

But after that, after seeing the connection between rage and assault: I disregarded all the admonitions be be good and nice. I was just fine going straight to fight if I were attacked. Still am. And that also goes if I see someone else being attacked.

 

[Ford]

The moral fiber of any person defending any male (forget someone who is over 70!) requesting this from an employee is bankrupt and non-existent. We are supposed to be beyond that point!

Unfortunately, there are far too many people who haven't gone beyond that point. There was this guy I worked with a couple years ago. He was about my age at the time (mid 50s) and didn't quite seem to grasp that the attractive 20 year old was not even remotely interested in him. We were all standing in line waiting to clock out, he said some cheesy line in an attempt to chat her up, and she turned around to me and just rolled her eyes. But that was just mild. I spent awhile after clocking out with another co-worker trying to talk her off the ledge because she'd been stuck working with him despite reporting him to the contracting company for multiple instances of inappropriate remarks. She wanted to quit, because they said "maybe you can just work through it."

Long story short, he was (finally) fired, they've both escaped the uncaring contracting company and are doing great (I'm so proud of both of them), but Jesus fuck they should have never been put through that. These employment agencies are maddeningly indifferent.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, women are taught to appease and placate, from a very young age.

Honestly, my first response the first time I was assaulted was sheer shock, retreat and fighting back only when those did not work. Followed by denial denial denial denial...for years. Because other incidents with the same individual kept happening. The shock was just that: shock. I could not comprehend what was being said to me, how someone grabbed my genitals for no reason I could fathom then or since. Still, having grown up hearing about my 'bad temper' and how I 'should not hit others' my impulse was always to avoid and retreat when I could. And question myself: was I doing something to 'lead him on?' although frankly I was too young to have known or understood that phrase. But surely I was doing...something? Eventually, there was an incident that made things really click for me: He was furious with me because I stopped him from breaking his sister's arm. I had had no idea what was causing this person, who could sometimes be the same person I had known for most of my life to become this horrible other person who said filthy things I did not understand or who tried to grab my breast or crotch or whatever. That one incident, though, allowed me to connect rage with sexual assault. And that turned the tide for me. The next incident was the last, the time I hurt him and caused him to fear discovery which would have resulted in some real consequences for him (and terrible ones for everyone else). It was years later before I realized that the look in his eyes when he would assault me was the same look as the time he tried to kill me. Also revelatory. I had blocked out that incident for...decades.

But after that, after seeing the connection between rage and assault: I disregarded all the admonitions be be good and nice. I was just fine going straight to fight if I were attacked. Still am. And that also goes if I see someone else being attacked.

The conditioning is so horrible and so strong. So many of us, as children FFS, end up feeling like it's our fault, as if we did something to cause it.

I take every opportunity to say: It is NEVER the child's fault. It is always the responsibility of the adult to NOT MOLEST CHILDREN!

 

[Toni]

Yes, women are taught to appease and placate, from a very young age.

Honestly, my first response the first time I was assaulted was sheer shock, retreat and fighting back only when those did not work. Followed by denial denial denial denial...for years. Because other incidents with the same individual kept happening. The shock was just that: shock. I could not comprehend what was being said to me, how someone grabbed my genitals for no reason I could fathom then or since. Still, having grown up hearing about my 'bad temper' and how I 'should not hit others' my impulse was always to avoid and retreat when I could. And question myself: was I doing something to 'lead him on?' although frankly I was too young to have known or understood that phrase. But surely I was doing...something? Eventually, there was an incident that made things really click for me: He was furious with me because I stopped him from breaking his sister's arm. I had had no idea what was causing this person, who could sometimes be the same person I had known for most of my life to become this horrible other person who said filthy things I did not understand or who tried to grab my breast or crotch or whatever. That one incident, though, allowed me to connect rage with sexual assault. And that turned the tide for me. The next incident was the last, the time I hurt him and caused him to fear discovery which would have resulted in some real consequences for him (and terrible ones for everyone else). It was years later before I realized that the look in his eyes when he would assault me was the same look as the time he tried to kill me. Also revelatory. I had blocked out that incident for...decades.

But after that, after seeing the connection between rage and assault: I disregarded all the admonitions be be good and nice. I was just fine going straight to fight if I were attacked. Still am. And that also goes if I see someone else being attacked.

The conditioning is so horrible and so strong. So many of us, as children FFS, end up feeling like it's our fault, as if we did something to cause it.

I take every opportunity to say: It is NEVER the child's fault. It is always the responsibility of the adult to NOT MOLEST CHILDREN!

Just to clarify: I was an adolescent— but still years away from being legal to drive a car, years away from my parents allowing me to date. Even fir the time, I was fairly sheltered. I truly thought at the time that people only wrote the word fuck on bathroom walls. They didn’t actually say it out loud. He was not an adult either—older than me, much taller, stronger. But not an adult. And I was not his only victim at the time, although I didn’t really comprehend the very vague warning she had tried to give me.

And later, he beat his first wife and kids and who knows what else. The second wife as well.