Huh. Must have missed that.
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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?
- Thread starter Harry Bosch
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bilby
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No shit.
But one side is very clearly the "bad guys". Supporting their victim, warts and all, is the moral thing to do, at least until we can get some kind of ceasefire in place.
When people are no longer being shot, shelled, or bombed, we might start discussing the problems of both sides. But until that time, we need to stand up to the aggressor. Because non-violence is a prerequisite for any kind of civilisation.
bilby
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Me too. Which is surprising, because US invasions of other countries usually make a lot of very loud noises.
TV and credit cards
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The “good guys” usually end up in mass graves. For now, it’s enough to know we should stop those responsible.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
As I have said before, and obviously you missed it, to do nothing. This isn't our fight.
Cool story bro.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
What the heck is a "good guy" to you? One side deliberately bombs houses and civilian structures. One side deliberately kills children. One side is invading another. There are no Ukranian troops in Russia. If Russia troops returned home tomorrow, the war would be over. Forget about good side vs bad side. Do you think that countries should be free from having their neighbors bomb the fucking shit out them? Do you believe that countries have the right to be sovereign and govern themselves?
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Please put your jokes to the side. It was amusing at first but gets boring after a while. Your dear leader today said that "Russia would not agree to a peace deal with Ukraine unless the country agreed to "solve the issues of Crimea and Donbas" on a level in which Ukraine would lose parts of the territories." This war was never about Nazis or Nato meanies or any of the other conspiracies that you have raised. It was always about a land grab. Putin wanted Crimea and Donbas.US/NATO invaded Ukraine.Who invaded what?Complete and utter propaganda garbage.Well, technically it's a police operation, not a war.
What do you suggest? and no, "Leaving Ukraine" is not an option
You know, Barbos, I don’t expect you to suddenly admit that you’re full of shit, and I doubt anyone else will change their mind either. So who gives a damn? But here’s some things you cannot deny:
- You’re getting your butts kicked by Ukraine. You’ve lost upwards of 450 tanks and 2,000 other armored vehicles. It will take years to replace those.
- You’ve lost approximately 30,000 to 40,000 personnel, either killed, wounded or missing. You will never replace those.
- You got your asses handed you around Kiev, and we’re forced into a humiliating retreat.
- You’ve yet to take a single major city, even Mariupol has continued to hold out despite being surrounded for over a month.
- You have failed to achieve air superiority, and have lost around 80 aircraft, along with numerous well trained crewmen.
- You just lost the flag ship of your Black Sea fleet, including its commanding officer.
- Your military failures have made your nation appear to be nothing but a paper bear. The incompetence displayed, including tanks being towed away by tractors, open communication on cell phones, instances of fragging senior officers, and even leaving troops without food or supplies has all exposed your nation as utterly weak.
- Your forces are simply bogged down everywhere they go. This war is now a quagmire from which it’s unlikely to end until you’re forces are bled dry. It’s ten times worse than your invasion of Afghanistan. You cannot conquer Ukraine. They will not be surrendering. There will be no peace talks.
- Your economy is in the toilet. Inflation is close to 20%, and you can trade little more than oil on international markets. Your stock market is about half of what it was in November. You’ve defaulted on your debt for the first time since 1918. You might continue to make some money on oil and gas, but even a lot of those shipments are now in jeopardy, as Germany says it will wean itself from Russian oil by the end of the year. It’s quite possible that in a few months time you will not be selling oil at all. That may never recover as they will no longer trust you.
- Finland will likely join NATO, soon too. Sweden might also. This will deliver a serious blow to your overall security situation.
- You’ve united NATO as never before, and even Germany is seriously increasing its military budget.
- The rest of the world is utterly shocked and outraged over your actions. Your military’s actions against innocent civilians has brought shame on your nation as Germany’s did 80 years ago. You will not be repairing your reputation abroad anytime soon.
- You’re two supposed allies are abandoning you too. Lukashenko no longer supports this war, and you can’t rely on Belorussians who are as likely to revolt against your incursion, and the Chinese aren’t stupid enough to go against the sanctions and hurt their own economy.
So tell me what the fuck good this war has done for Russia? How is Russia’s security situation improved by this stupid war? How has it benefited the ordinary Russian?
Mighty US/NATO is currently losing their proxy war with Russia they started.
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What makes Ukrainians bad guys?
Thomas II
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They dare to defend themselves!!!
TomC
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Part of what makes this so hard to parse out the truth is U.S. history.
We have a long and sordid history of political meddling and proxy wars. Part of the reason I mentioned Iraq is to point out that even here in the relatively free west, it's easy to convince a huge chunk of the population to support ugly military adventures.
We've done it a lot.
Tom
Maybe in anarchocapitalist libertopia there are no police or military because everybody simply engages in mutually beneficial voluntary transactions. So Ukraine obviously did something wrong and deserves this. Maybe Putin will make them proper libertarians in the Russian federation of non nazi liberty.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
But Tom, let's say that I agree with you and Jason that the US has been terrible to many countries (I do). We're hypocritical. We can be very mean to the Russians. But does that excuse Russia for invading Ukraine? Is it okay for countries to attack countries that are allied with the US because of US past crimes? If cracker-Jack Russian paratroopers suddenly landed in Denmark because they are allied with the US - is that okay? Ukraine isn't really an official ally of the US. They aren't in NATO or the EU (that will probably change).
I think that there should be certain lines in the sand. I'm more than willing to say that the US was wrong to invade Iraq. Why is it hard to say that it's wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine? Honestly, why should Ukranian children suffer because the US was mean to Russia? I sincerely don't get this.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
The Russian Hitler says they are bad guys. So they must be bad guys, especially considering they didn't welcome the stormtroopers with open arms and flowers.
Elixir
Made in America
Because Pootler.
15 years to life (or death) for calling Pootler wrong.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Don't fool yourself. The U.S. and just about every country with the means has been involved in unilateral shenanigans throughout history. Lots of Americans love the Russian Hitler and strongmen like him. It's an emotional attachment and identification with authoritarianism that drives this kind of loyalty to megalomaniacs. We're involved in defending Ukraine today largely because of the shenanigans of our own Orange Hitler. Their ilk are everywhere.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I watched a show profiling Hitler and he top Nazis. A comparison of Hitler and Putin becomes more clear.
Part Oof Hitlers popular image was invincibility. Nwws did flter back from war with Russi esecially Stalmgrad. hat along with bombing of German cities detroyed Hiter's pop image and his self image.
In the face of German unrest Hitler unleashed Himmler on the people. When German loyalty waned he resorted to brutality and suppression. A woman who was part of a resistance group White Rose was beheaded.
Hitler withdrew into his own relity and any negative comments coud be fatal.
When Hitler was informed of the Normandy landing he had slept late and nobody would wake him. His response was it was a good thing, kind of like now I have them where I want them.
Causalities were irrelevant. Defeat was irrelevant. Goebbels suppressed any talk of surrender and negotiation. Hemaintained radio propaganda and fake news right up until the end.
They knew they were done, and played it out as long as possible at the expense of the German people.
Putin is resorting to internal suppression without hiding it. Russian casualties are irrelevant. All that matters is self image.
If you have seen the video of the UN meeting with Putin they are sitting at opposite ends of a ridiculously long table. Almost farce or a cartoon.
As Hitler withdrew the top Nazis were fighting each other for dominance. I imagine that is going on behind the scenes in the Kremlin. Would be successors to Putin are probably lining up jockeying for position. Perhaps the oligarch murders are part of that.
Putin will lay waste to Ukraine rather than admit failure. There is no negotiation. His propaganda continues. In the nes a Russian spokeerson acuses NATO of engaing in a proxy war with Russia, it is not a proxy war. We are openly supporting the defeat of Russia in Ukraine. Russia shut off gas to Poland.
Part Oof Hitlers popular image was invincibility. Nwws did flter back from war with Russi esecially Stalmgrad. hat along with bombing of German cities detroyed Hiter's pop image and his self image.
In the face of German unrest Hitler unleashed Himmler on the people. When German loyalty waned he resorted to brutality and suppression. A woman who was part of a resistance group White Rose was beheaded.
Hitler withdrew into his own relity and any negative comments coud be fatal.
When Hitler was informed of the Normandy landing he had slept late and nobody would wake him. His response was it was a good thing, kind of like now I have them where I want them.
Causalities were irrelevant. Defeat was irrelevant. Goebbels suppressed any talk of surrender and negotiation. Hemaintained radio propaganda and fake news right up until the end.
They knew they were done, and played it out as long as possible at the expense of the German people.
Putin is resorting to internal suppression without hiding it. Russian casualties are irrelevant. All that matters is self image.
If you have seen the video of the UN meeting with Putin they are sitting at opposite ends of a ridiculously long table. Almost farce or a cartoon.
As Hitler withdrew the top Nazis were fighting each other for dominance. I imagine that is going on behind the scenes in the Kremlin. Would be successors to Putin are probably lining up jockeying for position. Perhaps the oligarch murders are part of that.
Putin will lay waste to Ukraine rather than admit failure. There is no negotiation. His propaganda continues. In the nes a Russian spokeerson acuses NATO of engaing in a proxy war with Russia, it is not a proxy war. We are openly supporting the defeat of Russia in Ukraine. Russia shut off gas to Poland.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I think the trem for US foreign policy and actions is Realpolitik and always has been.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I'd say if you do not pick a side one will be chosen for you, the side that wins whether you like it or not.
If you see no diffence between Russia and China and where you lbe in the west then you might just as well live in Russia or China.
Snowden thought he was doing the right thing against evil America and will spend the rest of his life in Russia a truly repressive police state.
Jimmy Higgins
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Ukrainian civilians killed >>> Russian civilians killed
Russian territory held by Ukrainians <<< Ukrainian territory held by Russians
The lack of a decent moral high ground of the United States isn't enough to try and morally whitewash what Russia is doing, though your posting history does show your propensity to want to defend mob rule and fascism, which explains your ridiculous statement.
Ukraine need not be perfect to be wronged. Otherwise, I'm going to take your car and justify it by saying you aren't perfect either.