How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[bilby]

In Ukraine, I saw the greatest threat to the Russian world isn’t the west – it’s Putin | Timothy Garton Ash

The Kremlin’s imperial war has made its own culture a common enemy for people across its former empire, says Guardian columnist Timothy Garton Ash

www.theguardian.com

Tetiana, a refugee from the ruthlessly bombed and destroyed city of Mariupol, had suffered without heat, light or water in a cellar under constant bombardment, seen her best friend killed by a Russian missile, and then had a traumatic odyssey of escape. Tetiana not merely speaks much better Russian than Ukrainian; her mother is actually from Russia, as are her parents-in-law. The Russian president would consider her a Russian. So I asked her for her message to Putin. She replied that she would like to kill him.

Wherever I turned, in every conversation, there was a total rejection not just of the Russian dictator, not merely of the Russian Federation as a state, but of everything and almost everyone Russian. Polling by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology shows that some 80% of Ukrainians had a positive attitude to Russia in 2013; by May 2022, the figure was just 2%.

No surprise there: the plan of making friends with Ukraine by bombing them to the ground isn't working.

After centuries of suppression of the Gaelic language, most Irish people speak only English, and most Gaelic speakers in Ireland, outside a handful of enclaves, are far more fluent in English than in Gaelic.

They still manage to hate the fucking English bastards who invaded and pillaged their country.

Looking at who speaks what languages, as a proxy for which nation should rule over them, has a ling and sordid history of being utterly stupid and wrong.

Putin didn't invent it, but he has only himself to blame for having adopted it.

 

[steve_bank]

Interesting note: Patriot system maintenance school is 53 weeks. After attempting to instruct US Army personnel in C-RAM and finding their basic electronic/radar training just wasn’t up to snuff to handle the material, I was surprised to read how lengthy Patriot school was. I’d like to see the syllabus. I wonder if it covers more of the basics because the guys the army sent us to teach weren’t prepared to handle 53 weeks of any classroom instruction.

That is an unbelievably long time. Thinking back of my military days, advanced MOS training while longer than basic was never that long. This must be for the technical types, not the operators.

It is. It's the maintenance course. The operator's is 20 weeks. But still. I don't know of any navy weapon system school that comes close. My CIWS op/maint was 26 weeks. Navy basic electronics & radar is 52 weeks (that all fire control and electronics techs attend).
This army course must include the basics and perhaps covers the various iterations of the system, old and new.

Reports indicate that the Patriot unit might arrive in February. That is fast. Training courses for Patriot operators and maintainers normally take many months. The PATRIOT system repairer course, for example, takes 53 weeks. Others are not quite so lengthy. The fire control operator course is 20 weeks. The launch system operator course is 13 weeks. Ukraine could save time by sending trained air defenders—for example, troops trained on the S-300 system, which Ukraine has operated for many years. Nevertheless, there is a lot of learning to do before Ukraine will have a functioning Patriot system on the ground. It is possible that the Ukrainians have already begun to train on Patriot in anticipation of a possible future transfer.

Patriot to Ukraine: What Does It Mean?

The Russians are unbelievable. They are complaining bitterly about America providing defensive weapons to Ukraine. The US is trying to limit civilian deaths and infrastructure damage in Ukraine. Putler desires the opposite. It's quite shocking that Ukraine wants to ally with the west!!

Political propaganda directed at the Russian people, not at us.

 

[Tigers!]

Interesting note: Patriot system maintenance school is 53 weeks. After attempting to instruct US Army personnel in C-RAM and finding their basic electronic/radar training just wasn’t up to snuff to handle the material, I was surprised to read how lengthy Patriot school was. I’d like to see the syllabus. I wonder if it covers more of the basics because the guys the army sent us to teach weren’t prepared to handle 53 weeks of any classroom instruction.

That statement speaks volumes of the current state of US education and culture. If it can't be done quickly it is not worth it.

 

[Patooka]

Interesting note: Patriot system maintenance school is 53 weeks. After attempting to instruct US Army personnel in C-RAM and finding their basic electronic/radar training just wasn’t up to snuff to handle the material, I was surprised to read how lengthy Patriot school was. I’d like to see the syllabus. I wonder if it covers more of the basics because the guys the army sent us to teach weren’t prepared to handle 53 weeks of any classroom instruction.

That statement speaks volumes of the current state of US education and culture. If it can't be done quickly it is not worth it.

There's quite a lot of Australians who aren't willing to spend over a year training whilst doing their job either.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Interesting note: Patriot system maintenance school is 53 weeks. After attempting to instruct US Army personnel in C-RAM and finding their basic electronic/radar training just wasn’t up to snuff to handle the material, I was surprised to read how lengthy Patriot school was. I’d like to see the syllabus. I wonder if it covers more of the basics because the guys the army sent us to teach weren’t prepared to handle 53 weeks of any classroom instruction.

That statement speaks volumes of the current state of US education and culture. If it can't be done quickly it is not worth it.

Nothing quick about it. My training occupied the first 18 months of a six year obligation which consisted of electronics eight hours a day, five days a week. I was given room and board all while getting a paycheck. The American Council on Education recognized it for over thirty credits which would have been best used toward an electronics engineering degree had I so desired.
Military technical schools are excellent. They take individuals with little prospects beyond a high school education and teach them to maintain some of the most sophisticated electronics and radar in the world.

As electronics improved seeing less and less analog and more digital electronics and as the electronics became more reliable with excellent built in diagnostics, schools became shorter. Test equipment became less of a necessity. My first week of school in 1987 covered vacuum tubes. My last school in 2003, Rolling Airframe Missile System did not require so much as a multimeter.

US military education and culture bears little resemblance to civilian education and culture. We are our own world. This is likely true for militaries of many other countries as well. And likely why those of us who spend a twenty plus year career in the military have a difficult time tolerating civilians when our time is up.

 

[Tigers!]

Interesting note: Patriot system maintenance school is 53 weeks. After attempting to instruct US Army personnel in C-RAM and finding their basic electronic/radar training just wasn’t up to snuff to handle the material, I was surprised to read how lengthy Patriot school was. I’d like to see the syllabus. I wonder if it covers more of the basics because the guys the army sent us to teach weren’t prepared to handle 53 weeks of any classroom instruction.

That statement speaks volumes of the current state of US education and culture. If it can't be done quickly it is not worth it.

There's quite a lot of Australians who aren't willing to spend over a year training whilst doing their job either.

Sadly very true.
I have to setup MFA (multi-factor Authentication) on iPads, phones for techs. The younger (<30 years old) blokes get furious if asked to respond to more than 2 verifications. Their lack of patience and unwillingness to expend more effort is not good.

 

[SLD]

So who watched Z’s speech. Historical is the most common adjective of the talking heads. I hope that this speech will unite the country behind him and stop the squabbling over continuing aid to Ukraine. Not sure what McCarthy’s response is. He’s having to appease the traitors in his party.

 

[Patooka]

Stay classy, Republicans.

 

[steve_bank]

Well crfyed.

References to WWII abd The Battle Of The Buge.
Like Chrchill he emphasized common values.
At the end 'god bless America', but he could ave emphasized Ukrainian Christianity.

One comment post speech was that it wll pursuade conservtive oppoistion, it will cent the support that exists.

The crazy right in congress are teeing off. Greene called Zelenski a 'shadow president of the USA', inferring a puppet of some shadowy conspiracy.

In her microblog, she called Zelensky the "shadow president of the United States" and suggested that the purpose of his visit to the United States was an attempt to ask Congress for another billions of dollars to support the existence of the "51st state" - Ukraine. Green called the upcoming speech of the Ukrainian leader absurd.

Scary that there is people like this in congress, aint it.

Right now I see a settlement that gives Russia part of Ukraine.

I don't see congress supporting a multi year war. Zelenski is right that it is in ours and Europe's interest, but I don't see long term support.

 

[Ford]

In her microblog, she called Zelensky the "shadow president of the United States" and suggested that the purpose of his visit to the United States was an attempt to ask Congress for another billions of dollars to support the existence of the "51st state" - Ukraine. Green called the upcoming speech of the Ukrainian leader absurd.

Scary that there is people like this in congress, aint it.

I'd be halfway inclined to chalk this up to her simply being contrarian. Biden is supporting Ukraine, she hates everything he stands for, and that would be the end of it.

Yet these are not normal times. Greene is a full-on Trump supporter. What do we know about Trump? Well, when George W. Bush hosted Putin on his ranch in Texas, he said that he "saw into his soul" or some other such bullshit. It was weird to see a US President so chummy with a Russian autocrat.

Trump said "hold my beer."

He not only publicly sided with Putin in Helsinki, but his administration carried out a shadow operation to kneecap Zelenskyy. In public, Trump was Putin's pal. In private, he was doing Putin's bidding. Allegedly.

And yeah, we know Russian money seeped into the MAGA wing of the GOP like cholesterol in a Cracker Barrel breakfast, but it is really disturbing that sitting members of Congress are so "all in" for Vlad's plans to annex Ukraine.

 

[Patooka]

I don't see congress supporting a multi year war.

I don't see congress wanting to support a multi year war. I also don't see Northrop, McDonnell Douglas and Raytheon giving up this potential cash cow so they'll donate to the right people and keep the wheels moving. One of the few times the military industrial complex has a positive outcome.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Zelenskyy visits the front line in Bakhmut and brings a signed Ukrainian flag to present to the US Congress, delivering an impassioned speech. A proud day for Ukrainians.

Shoigu states Russia needs to grow its forces to 1.5 million servicemen and Putin states financing this military is his priority. This will be at the expense of the rest of the Russian economy. If as a Russian you yearn for those good old days, looks like you’ll get your wish.

 

[steve_bank]

Putin is has a tiger by the tail.

All he can do is push it as long as he can.

Even with all the negatives, the western free press is essential. Putin's only internal chalnge wuld be a free pres and free speech.

 

[Jayjay]

Zelenskyy visits the front line in Bakhmut and brings a signed Ukrainian flag to present to the US Congress, delivering an impassioned speech. A proud day for Ukrainians.

Shoigu states Russia needs to grow its forces to 1.5 million servicemen and Putin states financing this military is his priority. This will be at the expense of the rest of the Russian economy. If as a Russian you yearn for those good old days, looks like you’ll get your wish.

And this is why Russia will win.

In other news, Russia's aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov caught fire:

The joke is that this is not the fire. This is Admiral Kuznetsov operating normally.

 

[steve_bank]

Zelenskyy visits the front line in Bakhmut and brings a signed Ukrainian flag to present to the US Congress, delivering an impassioned speech. A proud day for Ukrainians.

Shoigu states Russia needs to grow its forces to 1.5 million servicemen and Putin states financing this military is his priority. This will be at the expense of the rest of the Russian economy. If as a Russian you yearn for those good old days, looks like you’ll get your wish.

And this is why Russia will win.

In other news, Russia's aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov caught fire:

The joke is that this is not the fire. This is Admiral Kuznetsov operating normally.

Wood stoves to heat ships is not a good idea.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The joke is that this is not the fire. This is Admiral Kuznetsov operating normally.

My first ship, the Joseph Strauss did that when the boilers were first lit off. Also spewed a volcanic like ash (boiler lining?) that adhered to the paint of every vehicle down wind. Vehicle paint felt like 60 grit sandpaper.

 

[Tigers!]

Zelenskyy visits the front line in Bakhmut and brings a signed Ukrainian flag to present to the US Congress, delivering an impassioned speech. A proud day for Ukrainians.

Shoigu states Russia needs to grow its forces to 1.5 million servicemen and Putin states financing this military is his priority. This will be at the expense of the rest of the Russian economy. If as a Russian you yearn for those good old days, looks like you’ll get your wish.

And this is why Russia will win.

In other news, Russia's aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov caught fire:

The joke is that this is not the fire. This is Admiral Kuznetsov operating normally.

Wood stoves to heat ships is not a good idea.

Yes they produce too much CO2

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In other news, Russia's aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov caught fire:

The joke is that this is not the fire. This is Admiral Kuznetsov operating normally.

It's fuel is some very crude stuff and doesn't give it much range. That smoke is normal for it's design.

 

[steve_bank]

In a documntary on nuclar poweedr subs it was said the first Russian nuclear subs used gaskets on the reactorinstead of weldig it shut. Leaks went around the sub.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Russia is now demanding that the west stop aiding Ukraine as a pre-condition for peace talks:

MSN

www.msn.com

They are deluded. They want the war to end on their terms with a weakened Ukraine, so that they can invade in the future with fewer losses. Putler dosn't really want peace.