How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Elixir]

You've increased entropy needlessly again.

Destroying Russia would decrease entropy radically.
We may have to do that.

 

[barbos]

This isn't difficult. You and I agree that Russia does not want peace with its neighbors.

No, I want peace with all neighbors, except current Ukraine. They've talked enough trash that I want to give them a lesson.

 

[Harry Bosch]

This isn't difficult. You and I agree that Russia does not want peace with its neighbors.

No, I want peace with all neighbors, except current Ukraine. They've talked enough trash that I want to give them a lesson.

I'm curious, what is your guess as to how many Russians believe the same? There are many in the west who believe that once Putler dies some day, that Russia will suddenly become peaceful and happy. Secondly, even if the west was willing to turn our backs on Ukraine, and allow the holocaust that you advocate there, why should we believe, that Russia will stop at Ukraine?

 

[barbos]

I'm curious, what is your guess as to how many Russians believe the same?

I am more radical than most russians. But I am right.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I'm curious, what is your guess as to how many Russians believe the same?

I am more radical than most russians. But I am right.

Would you feel different if you had kids or grandkids that could be sent to the front?

 

[ZiprHead]

if NATO public supports reaches good level, NATO conducts referendum in the country. Otherwise they simply bribe and coerce parliaments and key people.

 

[barbos]

I'm curious, what is your guess as to how many Russians believe the same?

I am more radical than most russians. But I am right.

Would you feel different if you had kids or grandkids that could be sent to the front?

I might have "voted" differently but I would still feel the same.

 

[barbos]

if NATO public supports reaches good level, NATO conducts referendum in the country. Otherwise they simply bribe and coerce parliaments and key people.

Well, that's what they did in MonteNegro. And go and find the video you claimed to exist.

 

[Politesse]

Ponder this: the USA has never attempted to subjugate its neighbors.

That is the most absurd lie I've seen in print this week, and not for lack of competition. The US has gone to war with all of its neighboring nations several times over, seizing what are now some of its wealthiest and most populated territories in a brutal war of conquest against the then newly liberated republic of Mexico, and to this day keeps hundreds of captive and subjugated nations as "reservations" under the watchful eye of the Department of the Interior, as though they were wild animals to manage. While also treating the US-Mexican border, our frontier with what is supposedly now an allied nation, as a heavily militarized zone of a kind most nations would reserve for their most dire enemies. We created an entire branch of government to "control" Mexicans and other Central/South American immigrants, another to "manage" Indians, and three to spy on other enemy nations all around the world and interfere in their affairs. Russia straight up copied our policies and laws as it was establishing the rules of "modern", post-Imperial indigenous policies over its northern reaches. At least the USSR pretended there was a voluntary element to joining their union; the US never bothered with any such pretense in its dealings with other nations.

 

[barbos]

Russia straight up copied our policies

No, we did not. Russia invaded neighbours out of necessity (of security)
Regarding the current situation, Russia literally did not want Eastern Ukraine in 2014. Putin could have taken it but he did not want to.
MSM does not want to talk about it becasue it does not fit the narrative. Same with Georgia, Russia left it immediately after they surrendered. MSM does not want to talk about it either.

 

[Politesse]

Russia straight up copied our policies

No, we did not. Russia invaded neighbours out of necessity (of security)
Regarding the current situation, Russia literally did not want Eastern Ukraine in 2014. Putin could have taken it but he did not want to.
MSM does not want to talk about it becasue it does not fit the narrative. Same with Georgia, Russia left it immediately after they surrendered. MSM does not want to talk about it either.

I was referring to the borrowed European of plenary rights over territories bounded by national borders, that continues to set the baseline for Russia's treatment of indigenous peoples within its claimed territories. Although the Soviet construction of indigenous idenitity was much more expansive and liberalized than the American colonial nation-states in a lot of ways (at least before Putin got his hands in the pie and pushed a centralizing narrative that stripped the Republics of much of their former autonomy) still, much like the other European nations the Russian Federation constructed itself in imitation of, the modern state sees indigenous sovereignty as a gift, generously granted by a central government and ultimately rescindable at need, very much imitating the way imperial power was constructed and maintained in the American colonies.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The support of NATO membership shot through the roof after the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. The pre-invasion wisdom here was that economic ties would secure peace, but that mode of thinking died the day Russia invaded Ukraine.

So one is left wondering why Russia - more specifically Putin - would do such a stupid thing. IMHO the likely explanation is that Putin was getting cold feet. He's a criminal of the highest order, no different from Hitler, and realized western freedom and accountability was closing in. In his infantile mind he had no better option. And he's willing to kill as many as it takes, including his own countrymen, same as Hitler, to escape accountability.

For fuck's sake. For millionth time, Putin knew that Finland was a de-facto NATO country, but sane one at that.
He also knew that Ukraine was insane but not that insane to not agree on a good deal with enough persuasion, and they fucking did take that deal. What he did not account for was Elensky stupidity. The guy is fucking stupid and US/US fooled him into believing that he can defeat Russia, become a hero and live happily ever after.
I have to give it to US, nicely played, but in the end Russia will win and US will lose.

NATO is a post WW2 anti Russian defense part. Based on USSR's behaviour during the cold war.

Any country in Europe that doesn't want to be invaded by Russia is a de-facto NATO country.

That just proves people have a drive for self preservation. Not that they are enemies of Russia

 

[Elixir]

The US has gone to war with all of its neighboring nations several times over,

WUT?
Did we win the war against Canada? How many cities did we bomb? Did they sign a peace treaty, or were we kicked out like Russia was kicked out of Afghanistan? I must have missed a few decades.

seizing what are now some of its wealthiest and most populated territories

Where is the American flag flying? Are you referring to Texas? Yeah, we should give it back.

in a brutal war of conquest against the newly liberated republic of Mexico, and to this day keeps hundreds of captive and subjugated nations as "reservations"

Can you name a few dozen of these “hundreds”, where the American flag now flies?
Didn’t think so.

under the watchful eye of the Department of the Interior, as though they were wild animals to manage.

WUT?
I think you may be trying very hard to allude to a falsehood: that the US has done to its neighbors what Russia has done to theirs.
I’ll give you this though; if the GOP gets hold of this government, it WILL treat our neighbors like Russia treats theirs.

 

[barbos]

The support of NATO membership shot through the roof after the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. The pre-invasion wisdom here was that economic ties would secure peace, but that mode of thinking died the day Russia invaded Ukraine.

So one is left wondering why Russia - more specifically Putin - would do such a stupid thing. IMHO the likely explanation is that Putin was getting cold feet. He's a criminal of the highest order, no different from Hitler, and realized western freedom and accountability was closing in. In his infantile mind he had no better option. And he's willing to kill as many as it takes, including his own countrymen, same as Hitler, to escape accountability.

For fuck's sake. For millionth time, Putin knew that Finland was a de-facto NATO country, but sane one at that.
He also knew that Ukraine was insane but not that insane to not agree on a good deal with enough persuasion, and they fucking did take that deal. What he did not account for was Elensky stupidity. The guy is fucking stupid and US/US fooled him into believing that he can defeat Russia, become a hero and live happily ever after.
I have to give it to US, nicely played, but in the end Russia will win and US will lose.

NATO is a post WW2 anti Russian defense part. Based on USSR's behaviour during the cold war.

Any country in Europe that doesn't want to be invaded by Russia is a de-facto NATO country.

That just proves people have a drive for self preservation. Not that they are enemies of Russia

Another random unrelated BS from you.
I am starting to lose my faith in superior intelligence of nordic people. I mean Jens IQ=85 Stoltenberg, now you.
What's going on?

 

[barbos]

Russia straight up copied our policies

No, we did not. Russia invaded neighbours out of necessity (of security)
Regarding the current situation, Russia literally did not want Eastern Ukraine in 2014. Putin could have taken it but he did not want to.
MSM does not want to talk about it becasue it does not fit the narrative. Same with Georgia, Russia left it immediately after they surrendered. MSM does not want to talk about it either.

I was referring to the borrowed European of plenary rights over territories bounded by national borders, that continues to set the baseline for Russia's treatment of indigenous peoples within its claimed territories. Although the Soviet construction of indigenous idenitity was much more expansive and liberalized than the American colonial nation-states in a lot of ways (at least before Putin got his hands in the pie and pushed a centralizing narrative that stripped the Republics of much of their former autonomy) still, much like the other European nations the Russian Federation constructed itself in imitation of, the modern state sees indigenous sovereignty as a gift, generously granted by a central government and ultimately rescindable at need, very much imitating the way imperial power was constructed and maintained in the American colonies.

Good job. You sound as if you know what you are talking about.
Russia is vastly and profoundly different from the usual colonial powers (US, France, GB, Spain)
Historically you may compare Russia to other continental powers - Poland maybe, China, India. But projecting these countries I mentioned to Russia is just ridiculous. Russia have never really had GB style of "Lets subjugate everybody we can, the more the better!"

It was more like "Hey, whatever you are, we need to build road through you to our friend Georgia, stop fucking around, OK, we've had enough, the beating will commence right about ..... now"
As I said, out of necessity. 1939 Finland is a good example too. USSR presented a good case why USSR needs to have a chunk of Finland, offering land compensation in exchange. Finland disagreed, so out of necessity invasion commenced.

Once new territory was incorporated they were pretty much left alone. All that it was required from them is free passage, and loyalty, not conspiring with anyone, the rest is none of our business, but we would like to trade with you. Even during USSR it was somewhat like that. I mean Russia did not try to impose needlessly. But if you try to revolt then beating would commence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why? Pootey was going to siege their resources any way he could. They fought back like you would do.
Do you believe Ukranian people are inferior to “your” people? Why would you tell them not to do what you would do?

I do not believe that any people are better than others. That would go against my belief in 'Advaita' Hinduism which does not exclude even animals, vegetation or inanimate objects ('All that exists here is Brahman' - Sarvam khalu idam Brahma, so said my book, Mandukya Upanishad).
Like Buddha or my Prime Minister Modi said, the way to peace is talk and not war.

So there's no such thing as good and evil?

NATO isn't a threat to anyone. It's a defensive alliance only. It's just an impediment to those with an eye for conquest.

Ask the Russians or the Chinese.

NATO is only a problem for those who wish to conquer. If your intentions are not conquest NATO is a complete non-issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many countries has Russia invaded, annexed or pillaged?
How many countries has NATO invaded, annexed or pillaged, @aupmanyav ?

Elixir, off-hand I cannot reply, but perhaps the numbers are more or less equal. Remember Cuba, Egypt, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, some in Africa and South America too.

The only nation on your list that you could remotely claim to have been attacked by NATO is Libya--and note that that was in response to the Pan Am 103 bombing. He attacked first.

Or is this just a might-makes-right claim?

 

[bilby]

WUT?
Did we win the war against Canada?

No, you lost. And the Whitehouse got burned for your trouble.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

World Bank keeps increasing their estimate of Russian economy.
Last time they apparently recalculated and made Russia ~$6trln economy.
Now they appear to be saying that Russia could be $10trln economy. ~They explain that 40% of russian economy was not accounted by their accounting methodology

Where are you seeing this? Because when I go to the World Bank site for Russia I see 2.2T for 2022, no more recent data.

In some paper article I saw commented on youtube.
~$6trln is an official number, so Russia is 4th economy of the world ahead of Japan. Has been since 2021 apparently.
Nominal dollars you are using is what doomed NATO and their plan to crash Russia.
WB does not use nominal dollars, nobody with more than half-brain does.

YouTube is not a remotely credible source of such information.

I'll take the World Bank's own site over what somebody says is on the site.

 

[bilby]

Can you name a few dozen of these “hundreds”, where the American flag now flies?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States