How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Imagine growing up anywhere and thinking women are too stupid to like sophisticated programming.

Women don't like any programming at all

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos, aka Boris Badenov secret Russian agent.

 

[SLD]

Who gives a flying fuck?

"Ukrainians" apparently, that's why they were and still are brainwashing their population with their anti-Russia crap.
And so are baltic states regimes and really all regimes in the west including US.

The people that live there today do not want to be ruled by Russia and Putin

Says who? have you conducted any polls there? I don't recall you going to Crimea, Eastern Ukraine or even Central Ukraine.

Russia agreed to respect their territorial integrity in the 1990’s including Crimea

And Ukraine agreed not to be nazi. What's your point?

You are not welcome there even if you once were.

Actually we are very welcome there. And your nazis are not.

Anyway, I am glad you finally agreed that Putin was right.
It finally happened, It took a prominent ukrainian journalist ( with 1.8 mil youtube subscribers) but it finally happened.

Yeah, they’re really welcoming you with open arms. Right. Thats why your army can’t do shit. Too many people loving them along the way. But you’re right about one thing, we are all now anti Russian. But that’s what Putin has done for you.

 

[barbos]

Thats why your army can’t do shit

You know that how?

But you’re right about one thing, we are all now anti Russian

Not all, there are some intelligent people in the West. Actually there are a lot of them.

 

[steve_bank]

A three week war turns into two years without an end in sight and Ukraine has occupied Russian territory.

You are good at parroting CNN talking heads.

Ok, so what was the goal of invading Ukraine?

Putin said explicitly Ukraine never existed and was always part of Russia, and Ukraine culture would be replaced by Russian culture.

The results so far.

1.Occupying as mall part of Ukraine.
2. Continuing Russian casualties.
3. Attacks on bases in Russia.
4. Sanctions and travel bans on ordinary Russians in the EU.
5. Russia spending cash reserves.
6. Inflation.


Russia made it to the outskirts of Kiev but turned back to the border, must be part of strategy, right?

 

[barbos]

Ok, so what was the goal of invading Ukraine?

Demilitarization and denazification/deNATOfication.

The results so far.

US neocons and their puppets are experiencing strategic defeat in Ukraine.

 

[steve_bank]

Really? Once the war is over Ukraine is certain to join NATO.

Until Crimea and Ukraine NATO had grown complacent. Military spending was down. Putin has reinvigorated NATO.

NATO and Nazis are a Putin bogeyman for the Russian people to justify his destruction of Ukraine and its people.

 

[barbos]

Really? Once the war is over Ukraine is certain to join NATO.

You assume that Russia lose.

NATO and Nazis are a Putin bogeyman for the Russian people to justify his destruction of Ukraine and its people.

Russia and Putin are neocon&MIC bogeyman to justify millitary spending and destruction of Russia.

 

[Henry-Finland]

I don’t dialogue with you. I just comment on your ugly posts.

I do not read barbos's post anymore

 

[steve_bank]

Really? Once the war is over Ukraine is certain to join NATO.

You assume that Russia lose.

NATO and Nazis are a Putin bogeyman for the Russian people to justify his destruction of Ukraine and its people.

Russia and Putin are neocon&MIC bogeyman to justify millitary spending and destruction of Russia.

A Putin who invaded Ukraine enacting a genocidal destruction of a people and culture is not an imaginary bogyman, it is real.

From reporting a lot of it has reduced to WWI trench warfare. A stalemate.

For Putin to win he would have to kill all the Ukrainians who are willing to fight to the death.

At some point I believe NATO or a coalition would step in.

 

[barbos]

A Putin who invaded Ukraine enacting a genocidal destruction of a people and culture is not an imaginary bogyman, it is real.

That's patently false.

 

[barbos]

For Putin to win he would have to kill all the Ukrainians who are willing to fight to the death.

There are not that many left in that category.

 

[barbos]

At some point I believe NATO or a coalition would step in.

No, they would not.

 

[Henry-Finland]

In my village, there are about 80 people. We do a lot together. Everyone makes moonshine because it's not really prohibited here.

For example, we’ve built a covered celebration area by the village spring. We’ve also planted fruit trees in the area, which anyone is free to pick from. The WC was built from an old phone booth.

This relates to Ukraine in that we plan to hold a celebration at that spot as soon as the Kerch Bridge is destroyed.
Hopefully it will look like this:



There will be various traditional dishes, grilled meat and sausages, as well as moonshine, Irish whiskey, beer, and so on. Soda for the kids.

View attachment 47531
I've already bought my own bottle: vodka made in Montenegro.

What kind of party will you throw when the Kerch Bridge is destroyed?

 

[Henry-Finland]

In my village, there are about 80 people. We do a lot together. Everyone makes moonshine because it's not really prohibited here.

For example, we’ve built a covered celebration area by the village spring. We’ve also planted fruit trees in the area, which anyone is free to pick from. The WC was built from an old phone booth.

This relates to Ukraine in that we plan to hold a celebration at that spot as soon as the Kerch Bridge is destroyed.
Hopefully it will look like this:



There will be various traditional dishes, grilled meat and sausages, as well as moonshine, Irish whiskey, beer, and so on. Soda for the kids.

View attachment 47531
I've already bought my own bottle: vodka made in Montenegro.

What kind of party will you throw when the Kerch Bridge is destroyed?

The festival site was built by the villagers last summer.


When Kirch Bridge is destroyed, the festival will be held here!

 

[Henry-Finland]

From here:

 

[steve_bank]

A Putin who invaded Ukraine enacting a genocidal destruction of a people and culture is not an imaginary bogyman, it is real.

That's patently false.

Tojo, Hitler, Mussolini failed. Now it is Putin.

Post war Tojo was executed, Hitler took his own life, Mussolini and his wife killed by Italian people. Hung upside down by the Italians who he led to destruction. That is why Putin will harshly suppress any opposition with brutal force, he knows what will happen to him otherwise.

[graphic pictures of death hidden by moderator]

Show

I forgot, you think Russia ended WWII. The world has steadily moved to civil liberties and government to protect liberties. In the long run Putin's Russia will fail because it denies human rights.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In the long run Putin's Russia will fail because it denies human rights.

We can hope so but there are no guarantees although that seems to be the trend, particularly in Europe.

One can see a Putinstan as a kind of inoculant against totalitarianism but it has to be lived and experienced alongside a taste of actual freedom, not the serf freedom society that is Russia today. However, the ruthlessness of someone like Ruski Hitler can set things back indefinitely within certain boundaries. The freedom genie is hard to stuff back into the bottle if not impossible and someone like Adolph Putin fears this more than anything else.

 

[Elixir]

Russians are used to not having human rights. Ask them; they’ll be happy to tell you that YOUR human rights are just as constrained as their own. They are told they are the most free people on the planet. And they better believe it, or else.

 

[bilby]

In the long run Putin's Russia will fail because it denies human rights.

We can hope so but there are no guarantees although that seems to be the trend, particularly in Europe.

One can see a Putinstan as a kind of inoculant against totalitarianism but it has to be lived and experienced alongside a taste of actual freedom, not the serf freedom society that is Russia today. However, the ruthlessness of someone like Ruski Hitler can set things back indefinitely within certain boundaries. The freedom genie is hard to stuff back into the bottle if not impossible and someone like Adolph Putin fears this more than anything else.

We haven't really had freedom for long enough to tell whether it can be easily and permanently reversed*.

Certainly autocracy doesn't have an inherently short shelf-life; It was the norm everywhere for at least six thousand years, and remains the norm almost everywhere except Europe, North America, and Australasia.

Taking the OECD nations as a proxy for the "free world", we see around 1.4 billion people having "freedom" today, out of maybe 8.2 billion currently alive; That's about 17%. The other 83% have never had freedom; and that 17% figure has been growing (unsteadily) from 0% in around 1700.

Maybe 10% of people have had "freedom", for maybe 5% of the time since the invention of agriculture.

It says a lot about the human ability to ignore the big picture, and to assume that their personal circumstances are typical, that we feel that "freedom" is some kind of inevitable condition, to which un-free peoples will fight their way in the near future.

It seems to me that the claim:

In the long run Putin's Russia will fail because it denies human rights.

...is not inherently more plausible than the counter claim that in the long run, the US will fail because human rights are an abberrent and rare phenomenon, to which humanity is fundamentally unsuited.

Putin's downfall is not particularly more likely than the rise of a totalitarian US theocracy.

Indeed, the first hints of the latter are clearly visible, while Putin's position seems some way from being seriously threatened - and if Putin were deposed, the likelihood of his replacement being a free and democratic system respectful of its citizens rights (rather than just another autocrat) is negligible.

Certainly it would be foolish to assume that freedom and human rights are either going to arise, or going to be maintained, as a matter of destiny and without conscious and constant effort on the part of those who support such things.





*Though the replacement of the Weimar Republic by Nazism suggests that democracy can be demolished pretty quickly, if the wrong demogogue comes along at the wrong time.