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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

bilby said:
Maybe 10% of people have had "freedom", for maybe 5% of the time since the invention of agriculture.
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It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things. I suspect that small tribes are (or feel?) “freer” under autocratic rule in general, than larger ones.

bilby said:
it would be foolish to assume that freedom and human rights are either going to arise, or going to be maintained, as a matter of destiny
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That.
Good post.
 
Elixir said:
It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things.
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Sure, it's very nebulous, and it's possible to feel very free, even in a totalitarian society, if what you want (and who you are) just happens not to conflict with the desires of the despot.
 
Western liberal democracy may fail, it is not a certainty it will persist.

But we need to have some faith and believe it will.

The western thinking that led to democracy today had a long path. IMO that is why it peirsts and took root in the west.

As somebody pointed out it is not in Russian culture. It went from a monarchy to Stalin and his successors. There is no foundation for it.

In Iraq our neo cons seemed to have thought having an election in Iraq meant decadency was at hand.

Our biggest foreign policy failure is in thinking we can make the word look like us, and it doe not happen.

In South America there is Brazil with a working democracy and there is Venezuela. Mexico is a narco state. Political corruption.

I cringe when I har Biden rear up and p[proclaim we will fight for democracy everywhere.

I actually agree with China on one point, what goes on in China is none of our business, same with Russia.

It is our presumed authority to meddle in their countries that leads to anti American feelings.

From a Jefferson bio I read he said our spreading our system around the world would be line 'the Vatican sending an army of Jesuits over here'.

We are certainly duplicitous. Saudi Arabia abysmal on civil rights is iour frind, and Irq whi is actualy more democrat is our enemy. With Israel we have a double standard.
 
bilby said:
Elixir said:
It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things.
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Sure, it's very nebulous, and it's possible to feel very free, even in a totalitarian society, if what you want (and who you are) just happens not to conflict with the desires of the despot.
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That’s the case, pretty well by definition. In a small enough tribe, the autocrat is more likely to be responsive to your wants and needs. In a large enough tribe (a level we have long since exceeded) most people’s wants and needs are not known or cared about by the autocrat.
Just being in a marriage abridges some freedoms, even if there’s no autocrat. IOW freedom is wanting what you get, not getting what you want. It’s just that almost all autocrats don’t give a fuck what you want OR what you get.
 
steve_bank said:
Tojo, Hitler, Mussolini failed.
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Genocidal maniacs from Europe. Same as Borrel, Ursula and that 360 degrees lady.
And Elensky of course.
This war is remarkable in how little civilian losses Russian Army inflicts on Ukraine.
Normally it's civilians who die in larger numbers. That's how US conducted all their wars.
Here we have 150 missiles strike all over Ukraine - half a dozen of people died.
Compare to campaign of terrorism of Ukro-Regime in Eastern Ukraine and now in border regions in Russia itself.
Random shelling of civilians, that's all what regime is Kiev can still do.
 
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barbos said:
SLD said:
Thats why your army can’t do shit
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You know that how?
SLD said:
But you’re right about one thing, we are all now anti Russian
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Not all, there are some intelligent people in the West. Actually there are a lot of them.
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Because despite being 10x bigger than Ukraine, you’ve been stuck along the same line for two years and haven’t moved worth a shit. You’ve gotten your ass handed to you several times now, most recently in Kursk, your own Russian territory. Your military doesn’t do combined arms. They can’t even cross a river under fire. You massed your armor making it easy to kill multitudes of them.

Hell, at least Stalin was eventually able to subdue Finland, even if he got thrown back initially. Didn’t take him two and a half years. At the rate you’re going in Ukraine it will take 100 years. You better hope China doesn’t stab you in the back, and start taking chunks of the far east of Russia away.
 
steve_bank said:
Western liberal democracy may fail, it is not a certainty it will persist.

But we need to have some faith and believe it will.
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Do we? Having faith and believing seem like exactly the opposite of what we should do.

What we need to do is to keep lobbying at every opportunity for its survival, whether that means pointing out the dangers of complacency (and valuelessness of faith) on Internet discussion fora, or simply casting our ballots for politicians who oppose the erosion of human rights and liberal democracy.
 
Barbos The Hand Waver And Babbler

You can resort to sophistry to try and say freedom is no different under an autocrat and western democracy or philosophize on the meaning of freedom, but the fact remains a forum like this could never be hosted in Russia or China.

You are afforded freedom of speech we would not have in Russia or China. That is the metric.

The government here can not arbitrarily disqualify political candidates to ensure they stay in power. Aother metric, free elections. In the long run the people do decide how things go

If you and your fellow Russians want to live under a dictator like Putin, good for all of you. Leave oters out if it.

As a sovereign state protected by an agreement signed by Russia Ukraine freely chose to align with the EU.

Ukraine is an internationally recognized state.
Ukraine was among the first countries that signed the United Nations Charter, becoming a founding member of the United Nations among 51 countries, being the only Soviet Socialist Republic to do so alongside the Byelorussian SSR.
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As to schools in Ukraine being named after Putin, that is more like the Nazi regime.

There is an ugliness to Russia. Brutal with no empathy.

Dictators in history have a common trait, they never know when to stop. If Hitler had stopped an left Russia alone costarring his hold on Europe the world today would be vastly different.

IfPuiyijn over the last 20 years focused on building the Russian economy and strengthening infrastructure forgetting his paranoid fear ofe Europe Russia would be a vastly different place today.

Both China and Russia started with communism. Both systems failed. China adapted and became a global economic power. Russia under Putin is fighting a meaningless war.

China embraced the world, Russia still puts up barriers. Americaand China are adverserial in some issues, but we have trade with China and cultural exchanges.

Basketball is in China, we have had NBA players from China. We nave major league baseball plyers from Japan and around the world..

Meanwhile Russia wants to make war. Russia arrested a fer male basketball player for having a cannabis subsistence in a small aunt used for pain and was sent to jail and used as a political pawn.

Who wants to play sports in Russia when you can be jailed arbitrarily. It is Stalinism.


And no, Russia did not end the war.


en.wikipedia.org

World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Ruisa is more isolayed than ever. Go ahead make your case for Putin;s Russia.
 
Time is on Ukraine's side. Russia is using up its stockpiles of equipment. Tanks, and armored vehicles. Russia has about 2 - 3 years of reserves left. Rssia cannot replace their losses fast enough once its old tanks are sloppily refurbished and destroyed in battle. Its artillery tubes are wearing out fast. and some are being destroyed by North Korean shells that explode when fired. Aircraft loses are not being replaced by new aircraft. Russia's most advanced aircraft, SU-57's numbered about a dozen at the start of Pootie's war. Russia has been steadily losing these. lately destroyed on the ground by Ukrainian missiles and drones. Russia's navy is being steadily destroyed when deployed against Ukraine. Human loses are huge for Russia thanks to Russia's inability to train, arm and supply its wretched conscripts. Human wave attacks achieve little at huge costs. Ukraine is now manufacturing many of its own drones in large numbers. And Ukrainian munitions factories are being built as we speak. Anti-Russian partisans are daily destroying Russian railroads hampering logistics. Russia's monetary reserves are running out, and oil facilities are being destroyed by Ukrainian drones almost on a weekly basis. If Ukraine can last three more years, Russia's war will grind to a halt. The mighty Armata 14 tanks are nowhere to be seen at the front. Russia is in Wile E. Coyote mode, and is falling off of the high cliff of reality.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Time is on Ukraine's side. Russia is using up its stockpiles of equipment. Tanks, and armored vehicles. Russia has about 2 - 3 years of reserves left. Rssia cannot replace their losses fast enough once its old tanks are sloppily refurbished and destroyed in battle. Its artillery tubes are wearing out fast. and some are being destroyed by North Korean shells that explode when fired. Aircraft loses are not being replaced by new aircraft. Russia's most advanced aircraft, SU-57's numbered about a dozen at the start of Pootie's war. Russia has been steadily losing these. lately destroyed on the ground by Ukrainian missiles and drones. Russia's navy is being steadily destroyed when deployed against Ukraine. Human loses are huge for Russia thanks to Russia's inability to train, arm and supply its wretched conscripts. Human wave attacks achieve little at huge costs. Ukraine is now manufacturing many of its own drones in large numbers. And Ukrainian munitions factories are being built as we speak. Anti-Russian partisans are daily destroying Russian railroads hampering logistics. Russia's monetary reserves are running out, and oil facilities are being destroyed by Ukrainian drones almost on a weekly basis. If Ukraine can last three more years, Russia's war will grind to a halt. The mighty Armata 14 tanks are nowhere to be seen at the front. Russia is in Wile E. Coyote mode, and is falling off of the high cliff of reality.
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Delusion is strong in this one.
 
barbos said:
SLD said:
Because despite being 10x bigger than Ukraine, you’ve been stuck along the same line for two years and haven’t moved worth a shit.
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Why do repeat the same shit which has been answered a million times?
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So you’ve conquered Ukraine then? The war is over?

Here’s where you are today, nor much different than where you were after the Ukrainian counter offensive cleared Kherson about two years ago.

IMG_7099.png


In the last 6 months, this is your biggest gain:

IMG_7100.png

About 100 square kilometers. If you can sustain such an offensive operation indefinitely it will take decades before you reach Kiev.

It’s actually less than what Ukraine has taken in Kursk in a few weeks:

IMG_7101.png

In conclusion, your army sucks.
 
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