How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Elixir]

Maybe 10% of people have had "freedom", for maybe 5% of the time since the invention of agriculture.

It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things. I suspect that small tribes are (or feel?) “freer” under autocratic rule in general, than larger ones.

it would be foolish to assume that freedom and human rights are either going to arise, or going to be maintained, as a matter of destiny

That.
Good post.

 

[bilby]

It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things.

Sure, it's very nebulous, and it's possible to feel very free, even in a totalitarian society, if what you want (and who you are) just happens not to conflict with the desires of the despot.

 

[steve_bank]

Western liberal democracy may fail, it is not a certainty it will persist.

But we need to have some faith and believe it will.

The western thinking that led to democracy today had a long path. IMO that is why it peirsts and took root in the west.

As somebody pointed out it is not in Russian culture. It went from a monarchy to Stalin and his successors. There is no foundation for it.

In Iraq our neo cons seemed to have thought having an election in Iraq meant decadency was at hand.

Our biggest foreign policy failure is in thinking we can make the word look like us, and it doe not happen.

In South America there is Brazil with a working democracy and there is Venezuela. Mexico is a narco state. Political corruption.

I cringe when I har Biden rear up and p[proclaim we will fight for democracy everywhere.

I actually agree with China on one point, what goes on in China is none of our business, same with Russia.

It is our presumed authority to meddle in their countries that leads to anti American feelings.

From a Jefferson bio I read he said our spreading our system around the world would be line 'the Vatican sending an army of Jesuits over here'.

We are certainly duplicitous. Saudi Arabia abysmal on civil rights is iour frind, and Irq whi is actualy more democrat is our enemy. With Israel we have a double standard.

 

[Elixir]

It’s a tough call. For all we know, the people experiencing the most “average freedom” might be third world or indigenous populations, despite whatever outward metric we might apply to measure such things.

Sure, it's very nebulous, and it's possible to feel very free, even in a totalitarian society, if what you want (and who you are) just happens not to conflict with the desires of the despot.

That’s the case, pretty well by definition. In a small enough tribe, the autocrat is more likely to be responsive to your wants and needs. In a large enough tribe (a level we have long since exceeded) most people’s wants and needs are not known or cared about by the autocrat.
Just being in a marriage abridges some freedoms, even if there’s no autocrat. IOW freedom is wanting what you get, not getting what you want. It’s just that almost all autocrats don’t give a fuck what you want OR what you get.

 

[barbos]

Tojo, Hitler, Mussolini failed.

Genocidal maniacs from Europe. Same as Borrel, Ursula and that 360 degrees lady.
And Elensky of course.
This war is remarkable in how little civilian losses Russian Army inflicts on Ukraine.
Normally it's civilians who die in larger numbers. That's how US conducted all their wars.
Here we have 150 missiles strike all over Ukraine - half a dozen of people died.
Compare to campaign of terrorism of Ukro-Regime in Eastern Ukraine and now in border regions in Russia itself.
Random shelling of civilians, that's all what regime is Kiev can still do.

 

[barbos]

Putin's downfall is not particularly more likely than the rise of a totalitarian US theocracy.

Putin's downfall is way less likely than naming Schools and streets after him all over Ukraine.