Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[Rhea]

Hard ro imagine the security guard needing that kind of force. Doesn’t seem right to me. Need more info.

I’m trying to picture a scenario where dragging out a patron is the right thing to do, ever, and I’m coming up with a pretty short list - that would have been part of this story.

Waiting for more before thinking i can side with someone besides the person dragged. (Even if she is likely a dickhead “my freedums” type)

She's a danger so long as she's in there--the anti-maskers are much more likely than average to be infected.

I completely understand that, and I agree.
And I still don’t see dragging someone across the floor by their hair as an appropriate or necessary response.

 

[Rhea]

I strongly suspect in resisting being thrown out she fell down.

But you are assuming to justify the brutality.
ou don’t know that.

Besides, dragging by the hair has an advantage--it encourages the person to come along rather than resist.

Holy shit. That is callous.
No. Dragging someone by the hair is not justified.

And FFS, i is going to make her scream louder and more, spraying MORE potentially harmful moisture around.
So the right thing to do is get her out as calmly as humanly possible.

 

[laughing dog]

The allegation makes it seem like she was pulled out only by her hair. The video clearly contradicts that image - the bouncer has a hold of her hair and her arm while she is pulling. It seems to me the bouncer is asking for trouble if something goes wrong.

Don't misinterpret my position - anyone refusing to wear a mask should be escorted out. My concern is with the method of escort, not the actual escort.

 

[Rhea]

She's a plague rat.

Yes, she is.

There are a lot of people in general that don't wear their masks or wear them wrong.

They all suck.

Yes, they do.

They all need to be asked to wear their mask properly or put one on, or else leave if they refuse, or else be removed, to outside where they can do little harm..

Yes. And this removal does not require hair dragging.
Don’t lose sight of the fact that racists are looking for exactly this confirmation to provide cover for shooting unarmed black people “because they are thugs” or “didn’t comply” or some other horrendously racist bullshit.

Society does not require brutality.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Hard ro imagine the security guard needing that kind of force. Doesn’t seem right to me. Need more info.

I’m trying to picture a scenario where dragging out a patron is the right thing to do, ever, and I’m coming up with a pretty short list - that would have been part of this story.

Waiting for more before thinking i can side with someone besides the person dragged. (Even if she is likely a dickhead “my freedums” type)

She's a danger so long as she's in there--the anti-maskers are much more likely than average to be infected.

I completely understand that, and I agree.
And I still don’t see dragging someone across the floor by their hair as an appropriate or necessary response.

You are forgetting the important thing here, which is communism, comrade! Communism for all!

 

[Rhea]

Pretentious Trumpies who refuse to wear masks are inevitably the same people who insist on lying and exaggeration. The chance that her version is truthful is close to zero.

It doesn’t matter much to me - I see a person being dragged by their hair. A situation that is causing her and everyone around her to scream and yell.
To say this brutality is necessary and is somehow in the service of reducing the spread of virus is bullshit. Taking her out more professionally would have accomplished anti-virus goals better.

It’s unnecessary brutality, and that is wrong, in my opinion..

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, she is.

Yes, they do.

They all need to be asked to wear their mask properly or put one on, or else leave if they refuse, or else be removed, to outside where they can do little harm..

Yes. And this removal does not require hair dragging.
Don’t lose sight of the fact that racists are looking for exactly this confirmation to provide cover for shooting unarmed black people “because they are thugs” or “didn’t comply” or some other horrendously racist bullshit.

Society does not require brutality.

So I've been in some hairy situations before. Things get crazy and at some point you just end up doing whatever actually works.

I could easily put myself in a position where I would end up having to get dragged out of wherever by my hair. It's going to happen to someone at some point. People are dangerous when they get feisty. It would be easy to walk away with a broken tooth or a fucked up eye even in a conflict with a young child. It gets much moreso when that person is a rabid plague rat.

The fact is, when someone is behaving badly, and your job is to remove them, sometimes the only thing you can get is their hair, and if you let that go, it's another whole rigamarole to catch them again.

Sometimes, "brutality" is all someone will leave on your plate. Unarmed black men who get shot generally aren't even afforded an option to be brutal or not. They are just straight up murdered.

 

[Rhea]

Sometimes, "brutality" is all someone will leave on your plate.

And my position in this thread is that no one has shown any evidence of any kind that suggests brutality was necessary here.
I accept that it is possible.
I do not wish to accept this with no evidence, because the consequences to society are huge.
No “but she mighta” statements are sufficient for me to accept brutality.

Unarmed black men who get shot generally aren't even afforded an option to be brutal or not. They are just straight up murdered.

And the casual accptance of brutality without evidence of justification is part of how we got there. IMHO.


Alternatives:

How long can you be arrested for trespassing?
6 months
Penal Code 602 PC is the California statute that defines the crime of trespassing. A person trespasses by entering, or remaining on, someone else's property without permission or a right to do so. The offense is a misdemeanor that carries a maximum sentence of 6 months in jail and a fine of $1000.00.

If you get this person’s id, you can get them arrested later. You can tell them this. “Look, we have your id since you got carded when you came in. You can leave now, or you can remain and be trespassing. That is a crime punishable by up to 1000 and 6 months. You can be arrested at your workplace, or in your home, I don’t care. But the moment you are still here after I ask you to leave, you are breaking the law. We clear?”

 

[ronburgundy]

And the casual accptance of brutality without evidence of justification is part of how we got there. IMHO.
”

That's severe misconstrual of the nature of the discussion. I'll leave the silly hyperbole that this is "brutality" aside for now. We have a snippet of an event that we know with certainty was preceded by prior events, one of which was the person not wearing a mask when required. Much of the debate is between people who all accept that she refused to wear a mask and refused to leave. Those who think failing to mask when possible is on par with threatening other patrons with serious bodily harm, think that this is not a surprising or unjust outcome, in the highly likely even that such a person would also resist being calmly escorted out. Others think that non-masking should be treated as basically nothing and not meaningfully enforced and thus no physical action by the security is warranted.
Not a single poster has implied that it would okay for security to have just walked up to an unmasked patron and done this without prior escalation by the patron. That is a highly improbable scenario, so no one who thinks this is likely acceptable is operating under that scenario.

Another and separate debate is what actually is likely to have happened. The question is what is more probable: 1) a person refusing a basic civil act like wearing a mask was asked to leave, refused, was escorted and fought back, leading to them going defensively to the ground as they were pulled by the collar (Which is highly similar to events that happen in bars all the time), or 2) a security guard just walked up to a person not wearing a mask grabbed them by the hair pulled and dragged them across the floor?

And that analysis should consider that we are talking about a sports bar in a town where Trump just got 70% of the vote. IOW, we are talking about a bar where most of the people don't believe in or think they should have to wear masks and where the bouncers, bartenters and servers likely deal with dogmatic an indignant mask non-compliance on an almost constant basis. That would mean either 1) this is an hourly occurrence at this bar, 2) the bouncer just had a sudden mental breakdown with this one particular patron for no reason, or 3) this patron was particularly defiant and resistant to masking or leaving. #3 is by far the objectively most probable event, and made moreso by the fact that a second security guard was right there assisting which implies prior escalation and not a rogue security guard just grabbing a woman unprovoked. Note the bar security don't typically do everything with a partner unlike cops. So, the other guard was likely called to assist or came over during the struggle that preceded the video.

This isn't a court of law, there is no and should be no presumption of innocence, and in fact both explanations presume criminal guilt and aggression just by different people. So, any position requires assumptions that goes beyond the evidence. This is a discussion about what is most probable given how these situations normally go down. There is zero consequence of what we conclude, do there is no reason to be agnostic about it, especially given that the a priori probability of one explanation is so much higher.

 

[Rhea]

Good points of discussion, let me address them individually.

And the casual accptance of brutality without evidence of justification is part of how we got there. IMHO.
”

That's severe misconstrual of the nature of the discussion. I'll leave the silly hyperbole that this is "brutality" aside for now.

When I see the video, I see someone getting dragged, not by the collar, but by the hair. Her arms raised in defense to take some of the weight off her hair. That is unnecessariy brutal. It’s just not needed.

We have a snippet of an event that we know with certainty was preceded by prior events, one of which was the person not wearing a mask when required. Much of the debate is between people who all accept that she refused to wear a mask and refused to leave. Those who think failing to mask when possible is on par with threatening other patrons with serious bodily harm, think that this is not a surprising or unjust outcome, in the highly likely even that such a person would also resist being calmly escorted out.

I’m in the club thinking non masking is an act of aggression. Just so you know.
I am ALSO in the camp that making that person scream is a discharge of that weapon.
I accept that she refused to wear the mask and refused to leave.
I agree that she needed to be made to leave.

Not a single poster has implied that it would okay for security to have just walked up to an unmasked patron and done this without prior escalation by the patron. That is a highly improbable scenario, so no one who thinks this is likely acceptable is operating under that scenario.

Including me.

Another and separate debate is what actually is likely to have happened. The question is what is more probable: 1) a person refusing a basic civil act like wearing a mask was asked to leave, refused, was escorted and fought back, leading to them going defensively to the ground as they were pulled by the collar (Which is highly similar to events that happen in bars all the time)

She was not “pulled by the collar,” in that video, her hair was clearly pulled in the direction of her motion, which is not a natural direction for the movement of hair when a person is dragged by the collar. One’s hair does not precede one.
And THAT is the basis of my disagreement with you.

I have been in my share of bar fight situations. And dragging a patron actoss the floor by the hair is not normal, and not called for. It’s wrong. It is unnecessarilly brutal. AND it makes the unmasked patron scream, and everyone around them scream, creating a far worse virus situation.

So if the justifcation is, “but the virus!” Then this is the WORST thing to do. As well as being brutal.

[...] and where the bouncers, bartenters and servers likely deal with dogmatic an indignant mask non-compliance on an almost constant basis. That would mean either 1) this is an hourly occurrence at this bar, 2) the bouncer just had a sudden mental breakdown with this one particular patron for no reason, or 3) this patron was particularly defiant and resistant to masking or leaving.

This is the, “but he had a knife, so I was justified in shooting him dead” defense, which I also don’t agree with.
The are a non-zero number of options between no action and dragging by hair. You don’t seem to address any of these, you seem to keep saying, Either nothing - or the hair. I disagree with you that a bouncer is so constrained.

#3 is by far the objectively most probable event, and made moreso by the fact that a second security guard was right there assisting which implies prior escalation and not a rogue security guard just grabbing a woman unprovoked. Note the bar security don't typically do everything with a partner unlike cops. So, the other guard was likely called to assist or came over during the struggle that preceded the video.

Two guards available means a patron needs hair dragging even less.

This isn't a court of law, there is no and should be no presumption of innocence,

I do not presume her innocent. I suspect she is a dickhead anti-masker with a conservative-sized persecution complex. Who could be dealt with in 50 other ways than to be dragged across the floor screaming, spraying her virus-laden bile everywhere in the bar.

and in fact both explanations presume criminal guilt and aggression just by different people. So, any position requires assumptions that goes beyond the evidence. This is a discussion about what is most probable given how these situations normally go down. There is z ero consequence of what we conclude, do there is no reason to be agnostic about it, especially given that the a priori probability of one explanation is so much higher.

Already aware of all that.

I am arguing that the video shows behavior that was not only unnecessarily brutal, but was detrimental the supposed purpose of the action - “mitigating virus risk,” AND detrimental to the idea that a society harms itself when it uses unnecessary brutality.

 

[scombrid]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

It is a bar hag getting bounced from a bar. This is quite different from a public servant shooting a guy in Walmart because he is holding a BB gun while talking on the phone.

 

[Jarhyn]

And my position in this thread is that no one has shown any evidence of any kind that suggests brutality was necessary here.
I accept that it is possible.
I do not wish to accept this with no evidence, because the consequences to society are huge.
No “but she mighta” statements are sufficient for me to accept brutality.



And the casual accptance of brutality without evidence of justification is part of how we got there. IMHO.


Alternatives:

How long can you be arrested for trespassing?
6 months
Penal Code 602 PC is the California statute that defines the crime of trespassing. A person trespasses by entering, or remaining on, someone else's property without permission or a right to do so. The offense is a misdemeanor that carries a maximum sentence of 6 months in jail and a fine of $1000.00.

If you get this person’s id, you can get them arrested later. You can tell them this. “Look, we have your id since you got carded when you came in. You can leave now, or you can remain and be trespassing. That is a crime punishable by up to 1000 and 6 months. You can be arrested at your workplace, or in your home, I don’t care. But the moment you are still here after I ask you to leave, you are breaking the law. We clear?”

Indeed. I am saying she loses some of my confidence in not acting like that because of how I have seen mask-shunning people act. They generally make quite a scene, and this fairly well confirms my confirmation bias on account of it happening about as deep into this as I expected.

I don't know what happened. Either side could very well be the shittier of them.

But she was a fucking asshole either way. I don't pity target when they get looted, I don't pity girl for getting hair dragged, i do think looters need to be prosecuted, I do think the bouncer needs to be scrutinized.

 

[TSwizzle]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

It is a bar hag getting bounced from a bar. This is quite different from a public servant shooting a guy in Walmart because he is holding a BB gun while talking on the phone.

A “bar hag” indeed ? Well she deserved everything she got and more I suppose ?

Hilarious.

 

[WAB]

Hopefully the "security guard" will be charged with assault. Outrageous behavior.

So much for your pseudo-libertarian pretense that you have any regard for people rights to protect their individual property and lives of those rightfully on it. The second a person requested to put on a mask fails to either do so or leave the premises, they become a criminal trespasser engaging in behavior that puts other patrons at risk, just like a person throwing objects around the room at other people would be.

LOL. If that had been a black person on the receiving end rather than a "white Karen" you'd be taking to the streets or a knee or something. You're full of shit. This is the behavior of bullies and thugs so don't lecture me about civilized society.

LOL. If that had been a black person on the receiving end rather than a "white Karen" you'd be taking to the streets or a knee or something. .

LOL, no. Doesn't matter what race you are, if you refuse to wear a mask you're a fucking dumbass, period.

Another authoritarian on board with beating the shit out of a woman it seems. I'm not surprised in the least.

Me either.

 

[Jarhyn]

LOL. If that had been a black person on the receiving end rather than a "white Karen" you'd be taking to the streets or a knee or something. You're full of shit. This is the behavior of bullies and thugs so don't lecture me about civilized society.

LOL. If that had been a black person on the receiving end rather than a "white Karen" you'd be taking to the streets or a knee or something. .

LOL, no. Doesn't matter what race you are, if you refuse to wear a mask you're a fucking dumbass, period.

Another authoritarian on board with beating the shit out of a woman it seems. I'm not surprised in the least.

Me either. GN is hysterical.

Some people don't know the difference between indifference with desire for justice all the same, and being "on board" with it. There is a demand for justice. There should be a full accounting. Maybe a bouncer loses his job for not killing someone, just being too rough. Maybe a bar closes because of a drunken asshole being around a guy who isn't treating her "like a woman" when she isn't even acting like a civilized human being? That's pretty shitty.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

LOL. If that had been a black person on the receiving end rather than a "white Karen" you'd be taking to the streets or a knee or something. .

LOL, no. Doesn't matter what race you are, if you refuse to wear a mask you're a fucking dumbass, period.

Another authoritarian on board with beating the shit out of a woman it seems. I'm not surprised in the least.

Me either. GN is hysterical.

Excusez moi? Mademoiselle, I am merely attempting to show others the true glory of communism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

That's whataboutism. I agree. That doesn't mean the white lady shouldn't have been thrown out for refusing to wear a mask. Black people should also be thrown out for not wearing a mask in a bar .

 

[TSwizzle]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

That's whataboutism. I agree. That doesn't mean the white lady shouldn't have been thrown out for refusing to wear a mask. Black people should also be thrown out for not wearing a mask in a bar .

LOL, it's not about the mask fella but you already know this.

It's hilarious to see so many on here be all pleased (I would say some are actually aroused) about a woman getting the shit beat out of her because they thinks it's a white Karen or Trump supporter. And some think the security guard didn't go far enough.

 

[WAB]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

That's whataboutism. I agree. That doesn't mean the white lady shouldn't have been thrown out for refusing to wear a mask. Black people should also be thrown out for not wearing a mask in a bar .

LOL, it's not about the mask fella but you already know this.

It's hilarious to see so many on here be all pleased (I would say some are actually aroused) about a woman getting the shit beat out of her because they thinks it's a white Karen or Trump supporter. And some think the security guard didn't go far enough.

You may be right that some might actually be aroused. As long as it's just one of those screeching Karens running off at the mouth about their silly "rights", all is good.

Rights? Psshaw.

Like I said, some people have become hysterical, and it will become.socially acceptable, encouraged, and eventually rewarded, unless something is done about it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm reminded of a story about a local gal who pretty much got her way in town. Unfortunately for her she decided to get mouthy with a state trooper who grabbed her and pulled her through the open window when she wouldn't unlock her car. She really calmed down a lot after that, got right agreeable about things.