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If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?

For further clarity, here's an article about the duck curve:

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/3/20/17128478/solar-duck-curve-nrel-researcher

Since this problem hasn't been solved yet, we should abandon all use of alternative energy. Since nuclear power never solved the problem of waste disposal and since nuclear power isn't economically viable without a lot of government intervention, we should also abandon all use of nuclear energy. Since we never solved the impact of carbon on the climate, we should also abandon all use of fossil fuels.

If we find any kind of problem with an energy technology, the entire technology should be abandoned and not used in modern electrical grids. ;)

Anyway, it seems that there are two obvious solutions for the duck curve, both of which are daunting:

  • A global smart-grid that can transfer electrical energy from parts of the world that are producing too much to parts of the world that are not producing enough. We still need more traditional energy generation that can be turned on or off based on need, but we would use a lot less.
  • Each region continues to use their own local grid, and each region is responsible for coming up with some means of storing energy. The two problems with this is that no system can be completely efficient so there will be at least some energy loss, and since we're talking about very large amounts of energy, whatever storage method is used is likely to be pretty dangerous.

Anyway, since the problem of waste storage and economic viability were never solved, we should immediately close down all nuclear power plants and abandon all use of nuclear power in electrical grids. ;)
 
The end is in sight for me.

Food and water will be a problem more than likey for those born today.

As the US got better off and more educated birth rate declined, which is why immigration has been needed to sustain growth.

Without growth it is still sustainability. I may take some flak for this, Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state gone bankrupt. It can not sustain its own population. Does anyone think NYC and LA will be viable 100 years from now?

There is a housing crisis in Seattle. The area is highly developed and it is not enough, yet people come here.
 
For further clarity, here's an article about the duck curve:

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/3/20/17128478/solar-duck-curve-nrel-researcher

Since this problem hasn't been solved yet, we should abandon all use of alternative energy. Since nuclear power never solved the problem of waste disposal and since nuclear power isn't economically viable without a lot of government intervention, we should also abandon all use of nuclear energy. Since we never solved the impact of carbon on the climate, we should also abandon all use of fossil fuels.

If we find any kind of problem with an energy technology, the entire technology should be abandoned and not used in modern electrical grids. ;)

Anyway, it seems that there are two obvious solutions for the duck curve, both of which are daunting:

  • A global smart-grid that can transfer electrical energy from parts of the world that are producing too much to parts of the world that are not producing enough. We still need more traditional energy generation that can be turned on or off based on need, but we would use a lot less.
  • Each region continues to use their own local grid, and each region is responsible for coming up with some means of storing energy. The two problems with this is that no system can be completely efficient so there will be at least some energy loss, and since we're talking about very large amounts of energy, whatever storage method is used is likely to be pretty dangerous.

Anyway, since the problem of waste storage and economic viability were never solved, we should immediately close down all nuclear power plants and abandon all use of nuclear power in electrical grids. ;)

Given that the waste 'problem' has a number of excellent solutions, and that the only thing making nuclear power expensive is crazy over-regulation (plants in the USA spend far more on salaries for compliance staff than their operating costs), we should simply ignore the handful of vocal Luddites, slash the red tape, impose a large pigouvian tax on all fossil fuels, and let the market do its job. I am confident that we would end up with a power supply regime that looks a lot more like France than like Germany. And as long as the lights stay on, and the CO2 levels in our atmosphere stop rising, I won't mind at all if my confidence is misplaced.
 
The end is in sight for me.

Food and water will be a problem more than likey for those born today.

As the US got better off and more educated birth rate declined, which is why immigration has been needed to sustain growth.

Without growth it is still sustainability. I may take some flak for this, Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state gone bankrupt. It can not sustain its own population. Does anyone think NYC and LA will be viable 100 years from now?

There is a housing crisis in Seattle. The area is highly developed and it is not enough, yet people come here.

It's like having a time machine and going back to the 'Population Bomb' projections of dystopia from the 1970s.

Overpopulation enthusiasts are like religious end-times preachers. No matter how many times their predictions completely fail to eventuate, they just keep on with the same doom-laden nonsense, using an updated calendar.

In 1970, civilisation wasn't going to survive past 1990. By 1990, we were all going to be suffering third-world conditions by 2020. Now LA and NYC are doomed by 2118. Yeah, right. At the rate that it's receding, this bloody apocalypse is never going to get here, and then what will we have to scare ourselves with?
 
Despite claims of economic growth there is a growing number of disaffected people.

It used to be limited to minorities, now it is white educated college grads who do not see a future.

I live in Seattle, been here since 91. Today I would not move here.

Walk into a club and there will be a sign, max occupancy of X people. No such limits exist for growth of cities. It is about quality of life.Like I said, the end is in sight for me. As long as things continue for 10 or 15 years I'll be happy.

Would you live in NYC?
 
Despite claims of economic growth there is a growing number of disaffected people.
There is a growing number of unhappy people. However, the poverty rate continues to decrease. I attribute the growing unhappiness to naivety and unrealistic expectations.
It used to be limited to minorities, now it is white educated college grads who do not see a future.
Yes, there are a hell of a lot of college grads who can not find that job with an $80k starting salary. A college education does not guarantee job and financial success especially if the degree was in liberal arts. How much demand in the job market is there for someone with a degree in Latin, poetry, or gender studies?
I live in Seattle, been here since 91. Today I would not move here.

Walk into a club and there will be a sign, max occupancy of X people. No such limits exist for growth of cities. It is about quality of life.Like I said, the end is in sight for me. As long as things continue for 10 or 15 years I'll be happy.

Would you live in NYC?
Hell, I wouldn't live in NYC today, fifty, or a hundred years ago. I can't think of any large or even medium sized city that I would want to live in - although I confess that I did live in Atlanta for a few years quite a while ago so I could go to school and work to pay tuition. I then got a job at a company about 30 miles north of Atlanta and lived even further out. I now live quite content on three acres about 30 miles south of Savannah.
 
https://slashdot.org/

Tesla's giant Powerpack battery in Australia has been in operation for about 6 months now and we are just starting to discover the magnitude of its impact on the local energy market. A new report now shows that it reduced the cost of the grid service that it performs by 90% and it has already taken a majority share of the market. It is so efficient that it reportedly should have made around $1 million in just a few days in January, but Tesla complained last month that they are not being paid correctly because the system doesn't account for how fast Tesla's Powerpacks start discharging their power into the grid.

------------------

It looks like Tesla style battery systems may be a rather disruptive technology.
 
https://slashdot.org/

Tesla's giant Powerpack battery in Australia has been in operation for about 6 months now and we are just starting to discover the magnitude of its impact on the local energy market. A new report now shows that it reduced the cost of the grid service that it performs by 90% and it has already taken a majority share of the market. It is so efficient that it reportedly should have made around $1 million in just a few days in January, but Tesla complained last month that they are not being paid correctly because the system doesn't account for how fast Tesla's Powerpacks start discharging their power into the grid.

------------------

It looks like Tesla style battery systems may be a rather disruptive technology.

It is very useful for:
1. Reducing the cost of network stability.
2. Preventing large generators from manipulating spot prices on the national market.
3. Covering very short-term blackouts

IIRC, the battery is only capable of delivering 70 MWh, which means it is useful as a special-purpose installation but is not a answer to the problem of large-scale storage.

Ironically, we South Australia is leading the country in renewable power installations whilst also sitting on a metric fuckton of uranium that we refuse to use. Since we, like Germany, can't rely on our inflexible renewable generators to meet demand at all times, we are heavily reliant on Victoria's coal power plants as well as local gas peakers.
 
https://slashdot.org/

Tesla's giant Powerpack battery in Australia has been in operation for about 6 months now and we are just starting to discover the magnitude of its impact on the local energy market. A new report now shows that it reduced the cost of the grid service that it performs by 90% and it has already taken a majority share of the market. It is so efficient that it reportedly should have made around $1 million in just a few days in January, but Tesla complained last month that they are not being paid correctly because the system doesn't account for how fast Tesla's Powerpacks start discharging their power into the grid.

------------------

It looks like Tesla style battery systems may be a rather disruptive technology.

It is very useful for:
1. Reducing the cost of network stability.
2. Preventing large generators from manipulating spot prices on the national market.
3. Covering very short-term blackouts

IIRC, the battery is only capable of delivering 70 MWh, which means it is useful as a special-purpose installation but is not a answer to the problem of large-scale storage.

Ironically, we South Australia is leading the country in renewable power installations whilst also sitting on a metric fuckton of uranium that we refuse to use. Since we, like Germany, can't rely on our inflexible renewable generators to meet demand at all times, we are heavily reliant on Victoria's coal power plants as well as local gas peakers.
Except that in Victoria we are shutting down our coal power plants so we will tell you when to turn your lights off.
 
The end is in sight for me.

Food and water will be a problem more than likey for those born today.

As the US got better off and more educated birth rate declined, which is why immigration has been needed to sustain growth.

Without growth it is still sustainability. I may take some flak for this, Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state gone bankrupt. It can not sustain its own population. Does anyone think NYC and LA will be viable 100 years from now?

There is a housing crisis in Seattle. The area is highly developed and it is not enough, yet people come here.

It's like having a time machine and going back to the 'Population Bomb' projections of dystopia from the 1970s.

Overpopulation enthusiasts are like religious end-times preachers. No matter how many times their predictions completely fail to eventuate, they just keep on with the same doom-laden nonsense, using an updated calendar.

In 1970, civilisation wasn't going to survive past 1990. By 1990, we were all going to be suffering third-world conditions by 2020. Now LA and NYC are doomed by 2118. Yeah, right. At the rate that it's receding, this bloody apocalypse is never going to get here, and then what will we have to scare ourselves with?
So you believe global warming is a hoax?
 
Except that in Victoria we are shutting down our coal power plants so we will tell you when to turn your lights off.

The fucken things keep breaking down, so it's probably best that you replace them with something reliable.
 
The end is in sight for me.

Food and water will be a problem more than likey for those born today.

As the US got better off and more educated birth rate declined, which is why immigration has been needed to sustain growth.

Without growth it is still sustainability. I may take some flak for this, Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state gone bankrupt. It can not sustain its own population. Does anyone think NYC and LA will be viable 100 years from now?

There is a housing crisis in Seattle. The area is highly developed and it is not enough, yet people come here.

It's like having a time machine and going back to the 'Population Bomb' projections of dystopia from the 1970s.

Overpopulation enthusiasts are like religious end-times preachers. No matter how many times their predictions completely fail to eventuate, they just keep on with the same doom-laden nonsense, using an updated calendar.

In 1970, civilisation wasn't going to survive past 1990. By 1990, we were all going to be suffering third-world conditions by 2020. Now LA and NYC are doomed by 2118. Yeah, right. At the rate that it's receding, this bloody apocalypse is never going to get here, and then what will we have to scare ourselves with?

I'm not 100% sure I share your unconditional enthusiasm for fission energy (though for an Austrian, I'm extremely positive about it - the fact that we (or those of us old enough to vote then, which doesn't include me personally) rejected the opening of a nuclear power plant already built in a referendum in the early '80s (thus before Chernobyl) is a matter of national pride hereabouts. Local initiatives demanding the closing of plants near the border in neighbouring countries receive support across the political spectrum, and every government since 1995 has seen it as part of its mission to argue for building back nuclear capacities at the EU level. I'm not that guy, but neither am I fully convinced that the fact that nuclear is in fact receiving government subsidies can be fully explained away by overregulation.

However, I really appreciate your work in educating the people about the fact that it's no longer 1970.
 
I'm not going to go into wind here, but I'd like to defend solar to some degree.

Yes, its supply is intermittent and moderately unpredictable.

Yes, that makes it problematic as a main power source for all consumers.

But its supply is not random: It's supply is highest when irradiation is highest. Cool thing is, several not exactly subclasses of energy demand also strongly correlate with irradiation, on a fairly local level too.

That would be (steve bnk brought it up, I believe) pumping for irrigation; desalination; and most importantly, air conditioning.

If we can agree that solar is actually a cheap alternative if and when it produces energy at near its maximum capacity, we can probably agree that it makes sense to install photovoltaic capacity up to where it covers the demands for pumping, desalination, and 70% of air conditioning at times of peak demand from these types of consumer.
 
The end is in sight for me.

Food and water will be a problem more than likey for those born today.

As the US got better off and more educated birth rate declined, which is why immigration has been needed to sustain growth.

Without growth it is still sustainability. I may take some flak for this, Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state gone bankrupt. It can not sustain its own population. Does anyone think NYC and LA will be viable 100 years from now?

There is a housing crisis in Seattle. The area is highly developed and it is not enough, yet people come here.

It's like having a time machine and going back to the 'Population Bomb' projections of dystopia from the 1970s.

Overpopulation enthusiasts are like religious end-times preachers. No matter how many times their predictions completely fail to eventuate, they just keep on with the same doom-laden nonsense, using an updated calendar.

In 1970, civilisation wasn't going to survive past 1990. By 1990, we were all going to be suffering third-world conditions by 2020. Now LA and NYC are doomed by 2118. Yeah, right. At the rate that it's receding, this bloody apocalypse is never going to get here, and then what will we have to scare ourselves with?

I'm not 100% sure I share your unconditional enthusiasm for fission energy (though for an Austrian, I'm extremely positive about it - the fact that we (or those of us old enough to vote then, which doesn't include me personally) rejected the opening of a nuclear power plant already built in a referendum in the early '80s (thus before Chernobyl) is a matter of national pride hereabouts. Local initiatives demanding the closing of plants near the border in neighbouring countries receive support across the political spectrum, and every government since 1995 has seen it as part of its mission to argue for building back nuclear capacities at the EU level. I'm not that guy, but neither am I fully convinced that the fact that nuclear is in fact receiving government subsidies can be fully explained away by overregulation.

However, I really appreciate your work in educating the people about the fact that it's no longer 1970.

I wouldn't describe my position as 'unconditional enthusiasm'; I just recognize that nuclear fission is currently by far the best of the various options we have available.

For every complex problem, there are usually a range of alternative solutions, each with pros and cons. Determining which is the optimum solution can be difficult - but in the case of the problem 'How do we generate the electricity required by modern developed nations, at a reasonable price, and without destroying our ecosystem?', it turns out that there is one solution available today that is clearly and obviously superior to all of the other current options.

That's not to say that there might not be an even better solution developed in the future; Perhaps some new storage technology with low environmental impact and low coast might come along to make wind or solar into viable contenders. Perhaps some totally new technology (fusion power, or orbital solar power, or something completely unheard and unthought of today) might overtake nuclear fission as the best way to safely and cleanly make electricity to match demand. But right now, fission is the best of the available options, by a long way.

My enthusiasm for it is entirely conditional upon that remaining the case.
 
... I'm not that guy, but neither am I fully convinced that the fact that nuclear is in fact receiving government subsidies can be fully explained away by overregulation.

From the US: AEE | News | AEE Reacts to FirstEnergy Request for Emergency Support of Coal, Nuclear Plants
AEE Statement: No Need for Federal Emergency Support of Unprofitable Coal, Nuclear Plants

WASHINGTON, March 29, 2018 — Today, national business group Advanced Energy Economy (AEE) issued the following reaction to news about FirstEnergy filing a formal request for federal emergency support of unprofitable coal and nuclear plants, under the rarely used U.S. Dept. of Energy (DOE) section 202(c) authority:

“Advanced Energy Economy calls on Secretary Perry to reject FirstEnergy’s blatant appeal for a multi-billion dollar bailout of uneconomic and unnecessary power plants,” said Malcolm Woolf, senior vice president of policy for AEE, a national business organization.
It's not quite Fossilenergiedämmerung (twilight of the fossil fuels), even for electricity, but as renewable sources get better and better, will we see more of this sort of controversy?
 
Based on a review of publicly available 10-Ks, the American Action Forum (AAF) found $15.7 billion in regulatory liabilities for the industry, or $219 million per plant. These were largely related to long-term costs associated with disposing of waste. Annual ongoing regulatory costs range from $7.4 million to $15.5 million per plant, mostly related to paperwork compliance. Combined with regulatory capital expenditures and fees paid to the federal government, the average nuclear plant must bear a regulatory burden of $60 million annually.

https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/putting-nuclear-regulatory-costs-context/

It's been a tactic of the anti-nuclear lobby since day one to demand ever more onerous regulations on the (completely false) grounds that nuclear power is uniquely dangerous (it is at least an order of magnitude safer than such inherently safe sources of power as wind and solar, and five or six orders of magnitude safer than coal). Once the regulations are in place, the anti-nuclear lobby then wring their hands over the fact that nuclear power might be fairly safe, but it's just so expensive. When the only reason it is expensive is that they demanded that it be made to be, that's a bit fucking rich.

What's impressive is that most nuclear plants are profitable even though this massive burden is placed on them. If coal, gas, wind and solar all had to meet a similar regulatory burden - let's say the same number of dollars per fatality, or per injury/illness, with the money to be spent on ensuring that workers in the industry are protected from hazards - then nuclear would be by far the least expensive source of power.

I tried to find an assessment of the regulatory costs for coal power, but can't track down any studies or reports that break these costs out - presumably because they are not large enough to report on as a separate item. If anyone has a source showing the regulatory costs for non-nuclear power generation technologies, I would be most grateful if they would share them.
 
... snip ...
We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.
... snip ...
Of course we could. Humanity lived without using fossil fuels from the beginning of humanity until the industrial revolution. Of course, if we stopped using fossil fuels we would have to sacrifice most of our current standard of living and probably quickly deforest the planet with seven billion people competing for fire wood.

Or we could just replace them with nuclear power, and keep our standard of living, while massively reducing pollution, and saving the huge numbers of lives currently lost in the fossil fuel industries.

The trouble with nuclear is that the fuel and waste products are so damn dangerous. Even thorium/liquid salt reactors, which I think could be made safer (and definitely far more fuel efficient) than current designs, cannot be made proof against the largest disasters nature can throw at them- and human error is always a factor in increasing their riskiness. That has to be factored in to the relative expense.

I consider the environmental damage being done by CO2 to be about as dangerous as nuclear, in the long run. In fact I think we need to start planning global scale mitigation strategies; solar panels in orbit shading the poles may be worth looking into, if we can figure out how to safely beam the power generated down to the surface.

In the long run, I think that solar (both space and surface based), wind, and geothermal are where we should be putting our money. Keep up research on everything else, certainly- better batteries and high-temperature superconductors especially.
 
Or we could just replace them with nuclear power, and keep our standard of living, while massively reducing pollution, and saving the huge numbers of lives currently lost in the fossil fuel industries.

The trouble with nuclear is that the fuel and waste products are so damn dangerous.
Except, they're not. Nobody has ever been hurt by waste from a commercial nuclear reactor - in 17,000 reactor years of operation. That doesn't sound dangerous to me.

If we replaced every coal power station in the world with a nuclear power station, we could have a Chernobyl disaster every week, and still have saved lives by making the change. But in fact, we have had exactly one incident with fatalities in over sixty years (Chernobyl). At Fukushima, an outdated and inherently less safe reactor design was hit by the largest tsunami ever recorded - and the total casualties from radiation exposure were two minor injuries, and zero deaths. Fukushima and Three Mile Island are both household names despite having killed nobody. What counts as a 'disaster' in the nuclear industry is far safer than business as usual in most heavy industries - a death here or there doesn't even make the news. Union Carbide killed between 4,000 and 16,000 people (and injured over half a million), at Bhopal in 1984 - a FAR worse disaster than Chernobyl - and yet most people today have never heard of Bhopal, and they certainly don't bring Bhopal up every time anyone proposes to build a chemical plant anywhere in the world.

People keep saying nuclear fuel and nuclear waste are dangerous. But all the evidence says otherwise.
Even thorium/liquid salt reactors, which I think could be made safer (and definitely far more fuel efficient) than current designs,
Certainly they can be made more efficient. It would be very hard to make them safer - how do you get fewer than zero casualties?
cannot be made proof against the largest disasters nature can throw at them- and human error is always a factor in increasing their riskiness.
And yet it appears they have been made safe against exactly that. How could Fukushima Daiichi have been safer? Well, it could have performed as well as the somewhat newer Fukushima Daini, next door, which was ready to start generating electricity again within a day of the Tsunami.

Had Daiichi been replaced with a newer design when it was first planned to be, the world would never have heard of Fukushima. Of course, it wasn't - because anti-nuclear groups blocked its replacement. Well done guys. :rolleyes:

Of course, the world really shouldn't have heard of Fukushima anyway - there was no disaster there - the real disaster was all along the coast, where petrochemical and agrichemical plants dumped tonnes of carcinogens into the ocean and air; and tens of thousands were killed by a huge tsunami. Zero deaths does not qualify for the name 'disaster' in my book.
That has to be factored in to the relative expense.

I consider the environmental damage being done by CO2 to be about as dangerous as nuclear, in the long run.
How can you possibly reach that conclusion? CO2 has the potential to kill millions, and to make life miserable for billions. Nuclear power provides a net saving in lives. By replacing coal, nuclear power saves around 8,400 lives every year. (source)
In fact I think we need to start planning global scale mitigation strategies; solar panels in orbit shading the poles may be worth looking into, if we can figure out how to safely beam to power generated down to the surface.

In the long run, I think that solar (both space and surface based), wind, and geothermal are where we should be putting our money. Keep up research on everything else, certainly- better batteries and high-temperature superconductors especially.

Why? Nuclear power can do most of the job of reducing CO2 emissions. Both France and Sweden have demonstrated that electricity generation can be made almost CO2 emission free in around a decade, by the use of nuclear power. Germany and Denmark have demonstrated that wind and solar cannot achieve that objective. Geothermal is OK, but it's a niche technology - only really viable in geologically active locations like New Zealand or Hawaii.

GER_FRA_CO2.png

The statement "The trouble with nuclear is that the fuel and waste products are so damn dangerous" is one of those things everyone knows, like "Jesus loves me" or "What goes up must come down" or "Nature abhors a vacuum" - it's widely known, it's commonly accepted to be true, and it's completely at odds with reality.

Any source of energy is dangerous if uncontained. Nuclear energy is no exception. But nuclear energy is demonstrably something we know how to contain - or, where containment fails, how to mitigate any risks. If you were exposed to the contents of a nuclear spent fuel dry cask, you would die. But the same is true if you were exposed to the contents of a blast furnace (or to the combustion chamber of a coal or gas power station; or for that matter if you were to fall off a wind turbine tower). The only important difference is that lots of people have been killed by blast furnace accidents, a fair few by falling from wind turbines, and none have ever been hurt at all by spent nuclear fuel.

Nuclear power as practiced by the Soviet Union (the folks who brought us Chernobyl) is rather safer than coal power as practiced in the developed world. Nuclear power as practised today is vastly safer than that. In fact, no other sizable industry in history has a safety record as good as that of nuclear power. Commercial nuclear power makes commercial aviation look positively lethal.
 
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Nuclear waste explained

Spent reactor fuel, aka High Level nuclear waste is a solid material, and has no tendency to disperse, leak, or spread out; Containing it is easy, and it becomes less and less dangerous over time (unlike the chemically toxic products of burning coal, which remain toxic forever, and many of which are blasted into the atmosphere as fine particles and gasses that spray across the surrounding countryside and the unprotected and unaware people who inhabit it).

It is not green glowing goo, as popularized by The Simpsons; It doesn't get stored in barrels, nor does it ooze through cracks or spill out of drums.

Intermediate Level nuclear waste is mostly reactor components that need to be replaced during the operational life of a plant - the vast bulk of this waste is ion exchange resins and filters used to purify the cooling water used in the reactor. It is. again, solid material, and is far less radioactive than fresh spent fuel; But it is sufficiently radioactive to pose a health hazard if it is not isolated from unprotected people.

Low Level nuclear waste is stuff that is not dangerously radioactive, but is above background levels, and so is required by law to be carefully handled and stored. It could perfectly safely be dumped in the general waste stream and landfilled - it's not safe to eat, but if you are eating stuff out of landfills, low level radiation is the least of your worries.

If this stuff were particularly hazardous - for example, if it posed, say, one tenth of the hazard to human life and health that the waste from the chemical and fossil fuel industries do - then we would certainly know all about it. The people who made such a meal of Three mile Island (Death toll: Zero; Injuries: Zero) and Fukushima (Death toll: Zero; Injuries: Two minor cases of beta-burn, similar to severe sunburn) would have been sure to let us know.

That two of the three infamous nuclear power "disasters" had zero death tolls, and yet are household names, while far more deadly events such as Bhopal, or Aberfan, or Banqiao, are largely unknown to the general public, tells us just how powerful the propaganda against nuclear power is. But, like the power of the major religions, this strongly held and highly popular belief is founded on nothing - there is simply no evidence to support the widely "known" "fact" that nuclear power is far to dangerous to contemplate. Reality tells us that it is far safer than any of the alternatives.
 
Bilby, before Chernobyl I would have agreed with you all along the line. I've got a degree in Physics from Ga. Tech, and in my youth I almost joined the Navy and would have been running a reactor on a sub or carrier; and I applied for a job at Oak Ridge as an assistant to the scientists running their laser fusion research program. I'm not prone to knee-jerk reactions when I hear the word 'radiation'.

But... from the Wiki article on that disaster:
According to Mikhail Gorbachev, the Soviet Union spent 18 billion rubles (the equivalent of US$18 billion at that time) on containment and decontamination, virtually bankrupting itself.[9] In Belarus the total cost over 30 years is estimated at US$235 billion (in 2005 dollars).[209] Ongoing costs are well known; in their 2003–2005 report, The Chernobyl Forum stated that between 5% and 7% of government spending in Ukraine is still related to Chernobyl, while in Belarus over $13 billion is thought to have been spent between 1991 and 2003, with 22% of national budget having been Chernobyl-related in 1991, falling to 6% by 2002.[209] Much of the current cost relates to the payment of Chernobyl-related social benefits to some 7 million people across the 3 countries.[209]

A significant economic impact at the time was the removal of 784,320 ha (1,938,100 acres) of agricultural land and 694,200 ha (1,715,000 acres) of forest from production. While much of this has been returned to use, agricultural production costs have risen due to the need for special cultivation techniques, fertilizers and additives.[209]

Politically, the accident gave great significance to the new Soviet policy of glasnost,[228][229] and helped forge closer Soviet–US relations at the end of the Cold War, through bioscientific cooperation.[230]:44–48 The disaster also became a key factor in the Union's eventual 1991 dissolution, and a major influence in shaping the new Eastern Europe.[

Yes, that accident was the result of a long chain of human fuckups, and I agree the other nuclear accidents don't really amount to much. But when one screwup can cost 235 billion dollars (much more, actually; that just is over a 30-year period), and poison large areas for hundreds or thousands of years, then I really think we need to look for safer ways to generate our power.
 
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