Impeachment II thread

[DrZoidberg]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

If Trump is not held accountable to the fullest extent, we're just telling the world - including our enemies, the American people, and others who might aspire to be the next Trump that we do not hold power accountable and whoever can get the office can abuse it as they please with little or no consequences.

That is far, far more important, crucial even, than giving two shits about pettiness or about the opinions of people who cannot or will not hold their authority figures accountable, and who seem to be even less willing to do so the more abusive that authority figure is.

Ford did a huge disservice to our country by pardoning Nixon. Nixon the man and whatever humiliation he suffered after resigning is irrelevant to whether or not we tolerate corruption and abuse of power. I can't think of anything weaker from the standpoint of the world stage than letting a vapid, narcissistic, ignorant con man do as he pleases to your country from your highest office of power and then just let him retire quietly because right wing authoritarian morons don't want to hurt their master's feelings.

To think it's about being petty or not, quite frankly, is a deeply immature and shortsighted view. Thank goodness you have no influence here.

I'd also like to add that I would be just as adamant and vocal in the case of a foreign actor harming Donald Trump while he was President. That, too, would have nothing to do with the man personally, although, again, most of us would be thinking, "Good riddance." But we'd go to war if necessary because that's our highest fucking office and allowing a foreign agent to harm the person in it, no matter how much of a corrupt walking turd he may be, would be allowing no less than an act of war on our country. It's not about showing weakness; it's about not actually being weak and vulnerable to future aspiring corrupt powers who just saw Trump abuse the office for four years with no real consequences.

I don't think that's what you would be showing the world. Looking at it from the outside I see bullys bearing a man who is down. Incidentally what Trump did all the time. It didn't make Trump look good either

 

[Patooka]

I don't think that's what you would be showing the world. Looking at it from the outside I see bullys bearing a man who is down. Incidentally what Trump did all the time. It didn't make Trump look good either

Holding people accountable for their actions isn't bullying. The "Live and let live", attitude after Nixon is exactly what made the toxic environment where cunts like Roger Stone thrived in US politics. Some people don't learn until they get punched in the face.

 

[Sajara]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

If Trump is not held accountable to the fullest extent, we're just telling the world - including our enemies, the American people, and others who might aspire to be the next Trump that we do not hold power accountable and whoever can get the office can abuse it as they please with little or no consequences.

That is far, far more important, crucial even, than giving two shits about pettiness or about the opinions of people who cannot or will not hold their authority figures accountable, and who seem to be even less willing to do so the more abusive that authority figure is.

Ford did a huge disservice to our country by pardoning Nixon. Nixon the man and whatever humiliation he suffered after resigning is irrelevant to whether or not we tolerate corruption and abuse of power. I can't think of anything weaker from the standpoint of the world stage than letting a vapid, narcissistic, ignorant con man do as he pleases to your country from your highest office of power and then just let him retire quietly because right wing authoritarian morons don't want to hurt their master's feelings.

To think it's about being petty or not, quite frankly, is a deeply immature and shortsighted view. Thank goodness you have no influence here.

I'd also like to add that I would be just as adamant and vocal in the case of a foreign actor harming Donald Trump while he was President. That, too, would have nothing to do with the man personally, although, again, most of us would be thinking, "Good riddance." But we'd go to war if necessary because that's our highest fucking office and allowing a foreign agent to harm the person in it, no matter how much of a corrupt walking turd he may be, would be allowing no less than an act of war on our country. It's not about showing weakness; it's about not actually being weak and vulnerable to future aspiring corrupt powers who just saw Trump abuse the office for four years with no real consequences.

I don't think that's what you would be showing the world. Looking at it from the outside I see bullys bearing a man who is down. Incidentally what Trump did all the time. It didn't make Trump look good either

As far as looking at it from the outside goes, I think you are in the minority. Most of the world views Trump (and thus America these past four years) at best as a joke and at worst a threat to democracy. From what I can tell from most world news outlets and non-American friends, they view the Capitol Riot as a failed coup. And you're here saying, let's just hug it out, it's all good. No need to punish him.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

If Trump is not held accountable to the fullest extent, we're just telling the world - including our enemies, the American people, and others who might aspire to be the next Trump that we do not hold power accountable and whoever can get the office can abuse it as they please with little or no consequences.

That is far, far more important, crucial even, than giving two shits about pettiness or about the opinions of people who cannot or will not hold their authority figures accountable, and who seem to be even less willing to do so the more abusive that authority figure is.

Ford did a huge disservice to our country by pardoning Nixon. Nixon the man and whatever humiliation he suffered after resigning is irrelevant to whether or not we tolerate corruption and abuse of power. I can't think of anything weaker from the standpoint of the world stage than letting a vapid, narcissistic, ignorant con man do as he pleases to your country from your highest office of power and then just let him retire quietly because right wing authoritarian morons don't want to hurt their master's feelings.

To think it's about being petty or not, quite frankly, is a deeply immature and shortsighted view. Thank goodness you have no influence here.

I'd also like to add that I would be just as adamant and vocal in the case of a foreign actor harming Donald Trump while he was President. That, too, would have nothing to do with the man personally, although, again, most of us would be thinking, "Good riddance." But we'd go to war if necessary because that's our highest fucking office and allowing a foreign agent to harm the person in it, no matter how much of a corrupt walking turd he may be, would be allowing no less than an act of war on our country. It's not about showing weakness; it's about not actually being weak and vulnerable to future aspiring corrupt powers who just saw Trump abuse the office for four years with no real consequences.

I don't think that's what you would be showing the world. Looking at it from the outside I see bullys bearing a man who is down. Incidentally what Trump did all the time. It didn't make Trump look good either

Is the US Constitution and an oath of office nothing more than words? Fungible when convenient?

On your previous statement regarding respect: Yes, every stranger deserves a certain amount of respect at the onset. It is their actions going forward that determine whether or not they retain that respect from their peers. People who wallow in ignorance, seek confirmation of their biases, and rebel when evidence contradicts those biases are not deserving of respect. They are deserving of prison.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

Most importantly, it's necessary to erase this from the Republican playbook. Their use of the Big Lie must be shown, proven, reiterated. "Unity" doesn't mean much when this party continues to push the fantasy that Trump's Lost Cause was just and not a scam that led to insurrection.
Realistically, how to erase this subversive impulse when the GOP is unrepentant and its senators will almost certainly not convict Trump? There's no sure answer, except to expose the facts that we have. That's where I worry that not enough of the illegality will come out in the next two weeks. This was a completely corrupt President, sustained by a party that was willingly corrupted. If only progressives had the communication power of this bunch. But compared to the right wing media machine, we're pygmies.
Still: impeach. Prosecute. Detail the offenses. Force the Republicans to defend Trump's arm-twisting of state officials, constant lying, and starting a mob down the street to the Capitol, then letting it rage and offering his love to it. Insanity that this is some kind of wedge issue.

 

[Elixir]

It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

That's a terrible idea. It's a recipe for 1984, where every four years we're at war with Oceania and Onceania is the devil incarnate, then the next four years Oceania is our best friend and we're at war with everyone else.
No, we don't want or need to go there.
If we are to remain "one nation under god" or under "dog" or whatever, we have to have continuity of vision and purpose. Unfortunately the only way that has ever come to pass is when there is an immediate external threat.
Right now we have a situation where there is no such galvanizing factor - no imminent asteroid strike or Japanese invasion. no dire enough hardships whatsoever. People are lining up for food in their $50,000 SUVs. They are discontent so they book flights to DC (or take a private plane) to violently express their anger over mostly invented fake "threats". The past fours years many of us have adhered to a presidential model featuring zero empathy, so that a pandemic killing a half million of us isn't even an urgent enough concern to be unifying. An invented threat of "caravans" was enough to unite the gullibles enough to make them ok with putting children in cages, separating and intentionally destroying families. Asking such people to "get behind" a president who is asking them to suddenly grow a social conscience while their mentors are screaming "COMMUNIST!" over every penny that isn't going to support fortune 500 companies, is 100% unrealistic.
We have to plow ahead, ignoring the troglodytic factions and forcefully shutting them up and shutting them out if necessary, for their own and for the general good.

 

[jab]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

If Trump is not held accountable to the fullest extent, we're just telling the world - including our enemies, the American people, and others who might aspire to be the next Trump that we do not hold power accountable and whoever can get the office can abuse it as they please with little or no consequences.

That is far, far more important, crucial even, than giving two shits about pettiness or about the opinions of people who cannot or will not hold their authority figures accountable, and who seem to be even less willing to do so the more abusive that authority figure is.

Ford did a huge disservice to our country by pardoning Nixon. Nixon the man and whatever humiliation he suffered after resigning is irrelevant to whether or not we tolerate corruption and abuse of power. I can't think of anything weaker from the standpoint of the world stage than letting a vapid, narcissistic, ignorant con man do as he pleases to your country from your highest office of power and then just let him retire quietly because right wing authoritarian morons don't want to hurt their master's feelings.

To think it's about being petty or not, quite frankly, is a deeply immature and shortsighted view. Thank goodness you have no influence here.

I'd also like to add that I would be just as adamant and vocal in the case of a foreign actor harming Donald Trump while he was President. That, too, would have nothing to do with the man personally, although, again, most of us would be thinking, "Good riddance." But we'd go to war if necessary because that's our highest fucking office and allowing a foreign agent to harm the person in it, no matter how much of a corrupt walking turd he may be, would be allowing no less than an act of war on our country. It's not about showing weakness; it's about not actually being weak and vulnerable to future aspiring corrupt powers who just saw Trump abuse the office for four years with no real consequences.

I don't think that's what you would be showing the world. Looking at it from the outside I see bullys bearing a man who is down. Incidentally what Trump did all the time. It didn't make Trump look good either

I am also looking at it from the outside, and don't think it at all unreasonable that high crimes and misdemeanors should disqualify a politician from ever being a politician again.

 

[Worldtraveller]

If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation.

This is beyond naive, and into frankly stupid territory. Democracy, like civil rights, are not 'all or nothing', unless every single person agrees with every single other person.

At some point, differnt opinions limit rights in various ways. This is so basic I have to wonder if you really meant what you wrote.

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

I know you don't live in the US, but have you been paying attention to how they have behaved in the last 5 years? There's a reason 'deplorable' was considered a mild descriptor.

The 'fuck your feelings' crowd will never show respect for anyone that isn't part of their narrow minded little crowd. So...fuck their feelings.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Trump's GOP has done incredible damage to this country. It remains to be seen how much can be remedied. "Unity" means nothing when the opposition wished to take away the concept of government by consent of the governed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Trump's GOP has done incredible damage to this country. It remains to be seen how much can be remedied. "Unity" means nothing when the opposition wished to take away the concept of government by consent of the governed.

There is a tale of two GOPs.

"Trump's GOP" is small and confined mostly to the House, but with outliers in the Senate, like Rand Paul.

The McConnell GOP stuffed the court benches he left open in the later part of the Obama Admin. I think Trump appointed about as many Appellate and 1 more SCOTUS justice as Obama did in 8 years!

Both seem to be moving towards the single party rule plan. McConnell had a moment of rising above it in the Electoral College, but is back to his, 'we can't impeach treason' crap. Trump's path is a lot more straight forward and despotic. McConnell's path is subtle and much more effective, but takes longer.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

I know you don't live in the US, but have you been paying attention to how they have behaved in the last 5 years? There's a reason 'deplorable' was considered a mild descriptor.

The 'fuck your feelings' crowd will never show respect for anyone that isn't part of their narrow minded little crowd. So...fuck their feelings.

And then next time the Republicans are back in power they'll also fuck the Democrats feelings. That's not a promising way to develop things

 

[ideologyhunter]

Do you think there's a credible, workable way around that? Yes, the country's unstable. Yes, we lurch back and forth in four year cycles. Yes, we don't address major problems because of that. And so -- ??

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

I know you don't live in the US, but have you been paying attention to how they have behaved in the last 5 years? There's a reason 'deplorable' was considered a mild descriptor.

The 'fuck your feelings' crowd will never show respect for anyone that isn't part of their narrow minded little crowd. So...fuck their feelings.

And then next time the Republicans are back in power they'll also fuck the Democrats feelings. That's not a promising way to develop things

Except when the Dems were in charge in '09-'10 and getting ACA through after a long process (instead of putting W Admin officials in prison for Iraq), the GOP didn't exactly pay the Dems back in kindness for letting go of Iraq and the absolute fuckstorm that led up to it and it was. No, instead they lied, said the ACA had death panels, the ACA would be a "baby killer", and Obama was shouted down in a Joint Session as a "liar".

I understand that for Democracy to work, both sides can't continually play a gotcha game, but it is ridiculous for you to say the Democrats can't make with any self-defense despite the awful things the GOP is responsible for, including contesting and voting against Electoral Votes in the electoral college without a shred of evidence of fraud, stonewalling a moderate and older SCOTUS nomination while expediting one of the fastest approvals of a nominee right before an election (a speed to nearly match Justice Stevens who was approved (98-0) and was selected due to the known approval he'd have), stuffing the courts, and stonewalling an Obama Admin that was fighting against the Great Recession.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Do you think there's a credible, workable way around that? Yes, the country's unstable. Yes, we lurch back and forth in four year cycles. Yes, we don't address major problems because of that. And so -- ??

Yes. Pretend Trump didn't exist and go back to how things used to be run? Don't let him be a precedent for anything. They guy is a monster

 

[Jarhyn]

Do you think there's a credible, workable way around that? Yes, the country's unstable. Yes, we lurch back and forth in four year cycles. Yes, we don't address major problems because of that. And so -- ??

And so maybe we consider our PID loop that's failing to converge and address which variable is causing this failure?

I would expect part of it has to do with the fact that we have a particular segment of the news media that won a court case that said they have no obligation to tell the truth.

If you outlaw repeating false statements of fact, if you require prominence and length of retraction to exceed prominence and length of false claims, I expect we would see convergence again.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you think there's a credible, workable way around that? Yes, the country's unstable. Yes, we lurch back and forth in four year cycles. Yes, we don't address major problems because of that. And so -- ??

Yes. Pretend Trump didn't exist and go back to how things used to be run? Don't let him be a precedent for anything. They guy is a monster

Yeah, the trouble is... for the umpteenth time, Trump is a symptom, not the disease. McConnell stole a SCOTUS seat and then raced to seat Justice Barrett, a candidate of dubious qualification to be SCOTUS, with the only reason for her to be there is to kill Roe v Wade.

 

[Patooka]

Yes. Pretend Trump didn't exist and go back to how things used to be run?

You need to google the following to realize how naive your statement is:
Paul Ryan
John Boehner (the original orange man)
Newt Gingrich
Contract with America
Project for the New American Century
Grover Norquist

This has been American politics for at least four decades. Your suggestion of "go back to how things used to be run", is as out of touch as saying, "I'm a Democrat because I voted for Carter"

 

[Shadowy Man]

Yes. Pretend Trump didn't exist and go back to how things used to be run?

You need to google the following to realize how naive your statement is:
Paul Ryan
John Boehner (the original orange man)
Newt Gingrich
Contract with America
Project for the New American Century
Grover Norquist

This has been American politics for at least four decades. Your suggestion of "go back to how things used to be run", is as out of touch as saying, "I'm a Democrat because I voted for Carter"

I agree that this has been a long time coming. There's no "going back".

Dr Z. has demonstrated a quite limited understanding of American politics and lacks the socio-historical perspective that a politically-literate US Citizen would have of the situation.

 

[lpetrich]

Leahy, not Roberts, to preside over impeachment trial | TheHill
Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy, President Pro Tempore of the Senate, and not Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts.

Sen. Leahy is the most senior Democrat in the Senate.

Schumer: Impeachment trial will be quick, doesn't need a lot of witnesses | TheHill

Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said on Monday night that former President Trump's impeachment trial will be "relatively" quick, indicating that he didn't think many witnesses are needed.

"The trial will be done in a way that is fair but ... relatively quickly," Schumer told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow, his first national TV interview since becoming Senate majority leader.

The Senate took a first step toward the eventual impeachment trial on Monday when the House impeachment managers walked the article to the Senate floor. On Tuesday senators will be sworn in as jurors.

From a deal reached with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, the trial will start Feb 8.

Giuliani Will Not be Part of Trump's Impeachment Defense - The New York Times

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes. Pretend Trump didn't exist and go back to how things used to be run?

You need to google the following to realize how naive your statement is:
Paul Ryan
John Boehner (the original orange man)
Newt Gingrich
Contract with America
Project for the New American Century
Grover Norquist

This has been American politics for at least four decades. Your suggestion of "go back to how things used to be run", is as out of touch as saying, "I'm a Democrat because I voted for Carter"

None of those was the president. I think that matters.