Split Legalized Prostitution split from GOP: The party of idiots

[Bronzeage]

Which is more likely to get a client--the one whose calls usually go to voicemail, or the group that has a dedicated phone-answerer/dispatcher? If you're engaged in any high $/hr occupation you're better off hiring out scheduling than doing it yourself. Why should prostitutes be any different? But one prostitute doesn't need one scheduler so it's cheaper to work as a group. What's surprising about people using the most advantageous business model??

Oh, I understand the economies of scale in working as a group. I don’t see the value of having a pump/master/owner/enforcer. That is if prostitution were as safe as you seem to claim. But it’s not. If it were, there would be no need for the kind of security/guards that are required.

And where did I say anything about pimp/master/owner/enforcer??? That's purely you trying to impose your faith on what I did say. You are making assumptions about the power flow that AFIAK none of actually knows.

No, you seem to believe that the only way a prostitute can earn a good living is to have someone to manage their appointments, and handle all the pesky business details. I’m certain some prefer that kind of set up. But certainly not all refer to work in that kind of set up.

It’s almost as though you believe women ( since you seem to feel prostitutes are at least female even if some cannot necessarily be considered adult women) cannot be in charge of their sex lives. Is the business set up to keep the customers in line? Or the prostitutes?

You seem to think that the power inherently is with the other side. I'm not saying that.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘the other side.’ I also am guessing that women control sex and are all powerful in that respect.

You seem to feel that the people running it have all the power--but we don't see that in other industries where independent workers/separate business systems work. It's common in many personal service fields. Hairdressers, massage, I know a Pilates studio that works that way etc. Some are flat rate, some are percentage. Bad boss, the workers go elsewhere.

I also know plenty of hair stylists. When someone decides they are the boss, the stylists leave and form independent salons sharing space ( and rent, expenses) and covering each other where necessary.

So I totally do NOT see the need for brothels or pimps.

Except that customers can be violent jerks who put the sex worker’s health, wellbeing and very lives at risk. No hairdresser would agree to work with a client who was abusive. Nor plumber, electrician, etc. Why should a sex worker?

Pimps exist because prostitution is illegal. Anyone who makes their living by breaking the law, whether it's a prostitute or a drug dealer, does not enjoy the social protection available to the rest of us. If a client refuses to pay for a haircut, or worse threatens harm, the hair care technician can call the police. Prostitutes can't do that. This creates a market for protector/manager who takes a cut of the revenue. It's a business decision. If paid sex work were legal(and of course regulated), pimps would be out of work.

As for brothels, that's just a market that reduces transaction costs. If prostitution were legal, brothels would be as common as nail solons, and massage parlors would be less common.

 

[Toni]

Which is more likely to get a client--the one whose calls usually go to voicemail, or the group that has a dedicated phone-answerer/dispatcher? If you're engaged in any high $/hr occupation you're better off hiring out scheduling than doing it yourself. Why should prostitutes be any different? But one prostitute doesn't need one scheduler so it's cheaper to work as a group. What's surprising about people using the most advantageous business model??

Oh, I understand the economies of scale in working as a group. I don’t see the value of having a pump/master/owner/enforcer. That is if prostitution were as safe as you seem to claim. But it’s not. If it were, there would be no need for the kind of security/guards that are required.

And where did I say anything about pimp/master/owner/enforcer??? That's purely you trying to impose your faith on what I did say. You are making assumptions about the power flow that AFIAK none of actually knows.

No, you seem to believe that the only way a prostitute can earn a good living is to have someone to manage their appointments, and handle all the pesky business details. I’m certain some prefer that kind of set up. But certainly not all refer to work in that kind of set up.

It’s almost as though you believe women ( since you seem to feel prostitutes are at least female even if some cannot necessarily be considered adult women) cannot be in charge of their sex lives. Is the business set up to keep the customers in line? Or the prostitutes?

You seem to think that the power inherently is with the other side. I'm not saying that.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘the other side.’ I also am guessing that women control sex and are all powerful in that respect.

You seem to feel that the people running it have all the power--but we don't see that in other industries where independent workers/separate business systems work. It's common in many personal service fields. Hairdressers, massage, I know a Pilates studio that works that way etc. Some are flat rate, some are percentage. Bad boss, the workers go elsewhere.

I also know plenty of hair stylists. When someone decides they are the boss, the stylists leave and form independent salons sharing space ( and rent, expenses) and covering each other where necessary.

So I totally do NOT see the need for brothels or pimps.

Except that customers can be violent jerks who put the sex worker’s health, wellbeing and very lives at risk. No hairdresser would agree to work with a client who was abusive. Nor plumber, electrician, etc. Why should a sex worker?

Pimps exist because prostitution is illegal. Anyone who makes their living by breaking the law, whether it's a prostitute or a drug dealer, does not enjoy the social protection available to the rest of us. If a client refuses to pay for a haircut, or worse threatens harm, the hair care technician can call the police. Prostitutes can't do that. This creates a market for protector/manager who takes a cut of the revenue. It's a business decision. If paid sex work were legal(and of course regulated), pimps would be out of work.

As for brothels, that's just a market that reduces transaction costs. If prostitution were legal, brothels would be as common as nail solons, and massage parlors would be less common.

But in Nevada counties where prostitution is legal, there are brothels which exert a great deal of control over the sex workers. They do not 'take a cut' of the proceeds. The sex worker gets a cut of the money they earn. The brothel exerts a great deal of control over the lives of the sex worker. They do a great deal more than provide security. And btw, why is security, beyond what say, a bank or a Walmart needs necessary? I really want that question answered.

Are they necessary? WHY would they be, if prostitution is legal? If they are not necessary, why do they exist? Why is sex work not run the same way the hair salon where I get my hair done is run? Stylists rent booths, and their rental fees cover cost of renting/maintaining building.

I'm writing this knowing that the reason is, purportedly, to protect the sex workers. OK: WHY do sex workers need to be protected any more than any other business owner if prostitution is legal?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You seem to feel that the people running it have all the power--but we don't see that in other industries where independent workers/separate business systems work. It's common in many personal service fields. Hairdressers, massage, I know a Pilates studio that works that way etc. Some are flat rate, some are percentage. Bad boss, the workers go elsewhere.

I also know plenty of hair stylists. When someone decides they are the boss, the stylists leave and form independent salons sharing space ( and rent, expenses) and covering each other where necessary.

So I totally do NOT see the need for brothels or pimps.

Except that customers can be violent jerks who put the sex worker’s health, wellbeing and very lives at risk. No hairdresser would agree to work with a client who was abusive. Nor plumber, electrician, etc. Why should a sex worker?

And you simply assume without evidence that prostitutes don't function like hairstylists. Why do you assume they are working for somebody abusive?

There are clearly multiple companies here but obviously ownership information isn't exactly public.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for brothels, that's just a market that reduces transaction costs. If prostitution were legal, brothels would be as common as nail solons, and massage parlors would be less common.

Even without legality: I had noticed that various hair salons in China were behaving unexpectedly--open at unreasonable hours, business facilities inconsistent with the apparent volume. It didn't exactly surprise me to find out that they are to prostitution over there as massage places are here. At least every massage place over there that I have been aware of appears legit. (Admittedly, though, if there's no English it's unlikely I would realize what it is--thus I would tend to miss the low end of the market.) Once when our flight went mechanical we ended up arriving after midnight so it became more obvious--when we got to the restaurant I could see three other businesses that were open at that hour, all doing hair. That's three visible from one spot not selected for visibility. There must be a lot of them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But in Nevada counties where prostitution is legal, there are brothels which exert a great deal of control over the sex workers. They do not 'take a cut' of the proceeds. The sex worker gets a cut of the money they earn. The brothel exerts a great deal of control over the lives of the sex worker. They do a great deal more than provide security. And btw, why is security, beyond what say, a bank or a Walmart needs necessary? I really want that question answered.

Are they necessary? WHY would they be, if prostitution is legal? If they are not necessary, why do they exist? Why is sex work not run the same way the hair salon where I get my hair done is run? Stylists rent booths, and their rental fees cover cost of renting/maintaining building.

I'm writing this knowing that the reason is, purportedly, to protect the sex workers. OK: WHY do sex workers need to be protected any more than any other business owner if prostitution is legal?

The situation you describe exists because the counties like to make money off the brothels. Plenty of competition is not desired, restrictive licensing is desired.

 

[Toni]

But in Nevada counties where prostitution is legal, there are brothels which exert a great deal of control over the sex workers. They do not 'take a cut' of the proceeds. The sex worker gets a cut of the money they earn. The brothel exerts a great deal of control over the lives of the sex worker. They do a great deal more than provide security. And btw, why is security, beyond what say, a bank or a Walmart needs necessary? I really want that question answered.

Are they necessary? WHY would they be, if prostitution is legal? If they are not necessary, why do they exist? Why is sex work not run the same way the hair salon where I get my hair done is run? Stylists rent booths, and their rental fees cover cost of renting/maintaining building.

I'm writing this knowing that the reason is, purportedly, to protect the sex workers. OK: WHY do sex workers need to be protected any more than any other business owner if prostitution is legal?

The situation you describe exists because the counties like to make money off the brothels. Plenty of competition is not desired, restrictive licensing is desired.

Still does not explain WHY brothels control the movement and freedom of the sex workers.

Are you insinuating that given the choice, sex workers would prefer not to have brothels and pimps, etc?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But in Nevada counties where prostitution is legal, there are brothels which exert a great deal of control over the sex workers. They do not 'take a cut' of the proceeds. The sex worker gets a cut of the money they earn. The brothel exerts a great deal of control over the lives of the sex worker. They do a great deal more than provide security. And btw, why is security, beyond what say, a bank or a Walmart needs necessary? I really want that question answered.

Are they necessary? WHY would they be, if prostitution is legal? If they are not necessary, why do they exist? Why is sex work not run the same way the hair salon where I get my hair done is run? Stylists rent booths, and their rental fees cover cost of renting/maintaining building.

I'm writing this knowing that the reason is, purportedly, to protect the sex workers. OK: WHY do sex workers need to be protected any more than any other business owner if prostitution is legal?

The situation you describe exists because the counties like to make money off the brothels. Plenty of competition is not desired, restrictive licensing is desired.

Still does not explain WHY brothels control the movement and freedom of the sex workers.

Are you insinuating that given the choice, sex workers would prefer not to have brothels and pimps, etc?

I'm saying that they aren't given the option of setting up their own brothels. The oppression you object to is coming from the government! We currently have 19 brothels but nowhere near 19 brothel owners. I'm not going to track down all the details but there aren't a lot of options.

 

[Toni]

But in Nevada counties where prostitution is legal, there are brothels which exert a great deal of control over the sex workers. They do not 'take a cut' of the proceeds. The sex worker gets a cut of the money they earn. The brothel exerts a great deal of control over the lives of the sex worker. They do a great deal more than provide security. And btw, why is security, beyond what say, a bank or a Walmart needs necessary? I really want that question answered.

Are they necessary? WHY would they be, if prostitution is legal? If they are not necessary, why do they exist? Why is sex work not run the same way the hair salon where I get my hair done is run? Stylists rent booths, and their rental fees cover cost of renting/maintaining building.

I'm writing this knowing that the reason is, purportedly, to protect the sex workers. OK: WHY do sex workers need to be protected any more than any other business owner if prostitution is legal?

The situation you describe exists because the counties like to make money off the brothels. Plenty of competition is not desired, restrictive licensing is desired.

Still does not explain WHY brothels control the movement and freedom of the sex workers.

Are you insinuating that given the choice, sex workers would prefer not to have brothels and pimps, etc?

I'm saying that they aren't given the option of setting up their own brothels. The oppression you object to is coming from the government! We currently have 19 brothels but nowhere near 19 brothel owners. I'm not going to track down all the details but there aren't a lot of options.

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

 

[Derec]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

 

[Derec]

What is important to me is the empirical question. I don't know the answer and neither do you. At least I am not making up a priori excuses to dismiss possible future results.

I am not dismissing possible results. I am just saying that we need to look at results critically.
Increase in reports is not necessarily due to an increase in the underlying variable.
Also, Toni keeps talking about how legal sex work does not result in zero trafficking. Well duh! Nothing is perfect. Prohibitionism doesn't either.

Individual freedom is not an absolute. There are limits to everything.

Of course, but freedom should not be restricted arbitrarily and capriciously. And it certainly should not be restricted because it does not result in a perfect condition, even if a less free state is no better, and is probably worse as far as trafficking and the like are concerned.

 

[Derec]

BTW I have not been in Europe for decades. When I was, I assumed that the "red light districts" in Paris, Rome, Munich etc were all illegal or quasi-legal.

Don't know about sex work in Italy, but France's left-wing government banned sex work a few years ago (they adopted the highly sexist and illiberal Swedish model). In Germany sex work is legal, but there is no "red light district" as such in Munich. Instead, establishments (often under a system where the ladies are independent and rent rooms) are scattered in various commercial areas outside the city center. It is not unsual to see a Laufhaus next to an electrical contractor.

It also reminds me of an 80s song about a fictional Munich hooker who advertised in the papers and was very popular. In Germany, 32-16-8 is about as well known as 867-5309 is in US ...


That phone though ...

 

[Toni]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

So state regulations force brothels to control sex workers and to take the majority of their wages?

I honestly don’t not understand the logic here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

That appears to be the establishment, not a discussion of how it works.

I think it makes more sense to rent time in a room rather than rent a room, but otherwise your description matches up with how I think it should work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

So state regulations force brothels to control sex workers and to take the majority of their wages?

I honestly don’t not understand the logic here.

I believe the normal agreement is 50%.

The state provides very limited options for how they can work and charges very high fees/taxes for it. I have encountered mention of 6-figure license fees and 25% of gross in taxes comes to mind but I can't recall the details.

And note that 50% for facilities/support staff isn't exactly strange. My wife has worked under such agreements more than once.

 

[Toni]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

So state regulations force brothels to control sex workers and to take the majority of their wages?

I honestly don’t not understand the logic here.

I believe the normal agreement is 50%.

The state provides very limited options for how they can work and charges very high fees/taxes for it. I have encountered mention of 6-figure license fees and 25% of gross in taxes comes to mind but I can't recall the details.

And note that 50% for facilities/support staff isn't exactly strange. My wife has worked under such agreements more than once.

As a sex worker?

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

So state regulations force brothels to control sex workers and to take the majority of their wages?

I honestly don’t not understand the logic here.

I believe the normal agreement is 50%.

The state provides very limited options for how they can work and charges very high fees/taxes for it. I have encountered mention of 6-figure license fees and 25% of gross in taxes comes to mind but I can't recall the details.

And note that 50% for facilities/support staff isn't exactly strange. My wife has worked under such agreements more than once.

As a sex worker?

The point is 50% is not unusual across a range of fields. It's not magically evil because it's sex.

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

Legality.

And most of those cater to those passing through, not locals. Having a recognized brothel is a big advantage.

 

[Toni]

Nothing in the world is compelling brothels to take the bulk of the proceeds from the work that prostitutes do, nor are the brothels compelled to control the movements and lives of the sex workers. Except, of course, greed and the belief in the part of those who own and run and dare I say, use the brothels that the sex workers don’t really deserve better treatment.

All this depends on the level of regulation. From what I understand, Nevada brothels are too heavily regulated.
I like the Laufhäuser in Germany. Women (usually) rent a room in the establishment, but are independent providers and keep their earnings.
Example: Laufhaus HWB7.

So state regulations force brothels to control sex workers and to take the majority of their wages?

I honestly don’t not understand the logic here.

I believe the normal agreement is 50%.

The state provides very limited options for how they can work and charges very high fees/taxes for it. I have encountered mention of 6-figure license fees and 25% of gross in taxes comes to mind but I can't recall the details.

And note that 50% for facilities/support staff isn't exactly strange. My wife has worked under such agreements more than once.

As a sex worker?

The point is 50% is not unusual across a range of fields. It's not magically evil because it's sex.

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

Legality.

And most of those cater to those passing through, not locals. Having a recognized brothel is a big advantage.

How is it a big advantage? I understand it’s an advantage to the customers and those who own/ operate the brothel. I care much more about the welfare of the sex workers, which you seem to totally ignore.

 

[ZiprHead]

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

I wouldn't say necessary. But I would say it provides a larger customer base. Probably far greater than trying to go it alone. Probably safer too. I can't imagine a brothel not having a bouncer on site at all times.

 

[Toni]

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

I wouldn't say necessary. But I would say it provides a larger customer base. Probably far greater than trying to go it alone. Probably safer too. I can't imagine a brothel not having a bouncer on site at all times.

I’ve never been to Nevada or Vegas but my understanding ( and I believe noted by someone else in this thread) is that there is a lot of prostitution, fairly openly in Vegas, even if it’s illegal. I am pretty certain that Vegas is an ideal set up for prostitution: What happens in Vegas, after all.

Safety? Maybe. Also a LOT of control over the workers.

 

[ZiprHead]

My question really is WHY are brothels necessary? Obviously there is a ton of prostitution that occurs outside de of brothels. What is the advantage—to the sex workers—of a brothel?

I wouldn't say necessary. But I would say it provides a larger customer base. Probably far greater than trying to go it alone. Probably safer too. I can't imagine a brothel not having a bouncer on site at all times.

I’ve never been to Nevada or Vegas but my understanding ( and I believe noted by someone else in this thread) is that there is a lot of prostitution, fairly openly in Vegas, even if it’s illegal. I am pretty certain that Vegas is an ideal set up for prostitution: What happens in Vegas, after all.

Safety? Maybe. Also a LOT of control over the workers.

I've been to Nevada but only to pass through. So I have no first hand knowledge of the brothel/independent sex work situation there. I would say the chance of arrest and prosecution of independents is a plus to working in legal brothels.

And I've never worked anywhere where I wasn't under a lot of control by my employer. Employee/contractor being controlled by the employer doesn't necessarily mean bad as you are implying it is.