Split Legalized Prostitution split from GOP: The party of idiots

[Derec]

Hopefully, he meant prosecuting. I would hope that even Derec wouldn't claim that being denied buying sex is a form of persecution.

I think being targeted by unjust laws is a form of persecution, yes.

I am only concerned about the workers, their safety, their rights and their freedom to choose this work without fear of being charged as criminals or stigmatized.

I think we should be concerned about workers as well as clients. Are we not human beings? When you prick us, do we not bleed?
So why are you not concerned about the safety, rights and freedoms of people like me?

 

[Derec]

My reading over the years (and sorry, I no longer have the links nor the time to seek them out again) is that legalizing INCREASES trafficking and INCREASES illegal sex work. I personally was quite shocked and that totally changed my mind about legalization.

Prohibitionists claim that. I have seen no good evidence of it. Nor is there (afaik) a mechanism for legalization having such an effect.
What there is a mechanism for is for there being more reports of it. But that is a good thing. If more of the bad actors are exposed, they can be dealt with.
Another thing is that prohibitionist groups have a very broad definition of trafficking. If a woman moves, of her own accord, from Czechia to Munich and works as a sex worker, would you describe her as being "trafficked"? Prohibitionist groups usually do. That clearly inflates numbers.

I suppose it is rather comparable to having a coffee shop on the corner: it increases the traffic of people in the area looking for coffee and so other coffee shops pop up.

But why would it increase the number of illegal coffee shops? On the other hand, if you outlaw coffee shops, everybody seeking coffee is a criminal now.

Again: I honestly do not care about adults having mutually consensual sex with other adults, providing that all parties are in fact, adult and are, in fact consenting.

Then why do you think we should be treated as criminals?

Many years ago, a neighbor lady and I (I was a teenager at the time) were talking and she was rather upset with her husband who fiercely believed that a woman who was not tied up or knocked out could not be 'raped.' That if she 'gave in' after being punched and knocked around enough, well, that was consent. I am certain that he's not the only person to have that belief/attitude.

That is crazy, and I am quite sure you are not the only one with those beliefs. On the flipside, there are those who believe that if a man and a woman have been drinking, she can't consent. Or if he says that sex is important to him and would end the relationship unless there is sex, and she gives in, she has been "raped" because that is "coercion". There are crazy people on both extremes of almost any issue.
What does that have to do with discussion at hand though?

That is not the kind of consent I'm talking about. It's not consent if compliance is forced by physical force, use of intoxicants, or extortion: let me do what I want or I'll go after your kid.

Except for "use of intoxicants", I would agree. There is a level of intoxication that renders a person unable to consent, but not all use of intoxicants is that.

Let me do what I want or you'll be out on the street.

If a person A gives shelter to person B in exchange for sex, and B reneges, should that not invalidate the shelter agreement? A should not force B to have sex, but surely, B should be finding other accommodations.

 

[Derec]

I have tremendous sympathy for those who are unable to enjoy a physical relationship (with or without sex) with another person for all sorts of reasons.

And yet you still want us in jail.

And for those people, I certainly have the most sympathy if they use sex workers to satisfy their needs for touch and/or sex and/or intimacy. It's a STRONG need that is both physical and emotional. I think that those who DO rely on paid sex workers to satisfy their needs DO feel persecuted when people like me speak out about the evils of sex work.

You betcha!

That's not my intention. I honestly want everyone to be as happy and healthy as possible, so long as their happiness does not involve harming other people, drowning kittens, pulling wings off of butterflies, etc. We just disagree about whether or not harm occurs and whether or not that harm is offset by money exchanging hands.

You sure come across that way.

Again: I don't find it immoral for two CONSENTING ADULTS to have whatever kind of relationship they choose, whether or not it involves sex or money. My only problem is with consent and with adults only. I honestly think that one should have to be at least 25 to engage in paid sex work--by which I mean having sex/sexual contact with clients for money or substitute. Yes, I would include 'exotic dancing' in the category of 25+ for that work. Probably only fans type of stuff as well. I'm sure there are plenty of platforms and forms of sex work I am not particularly familiar with.

It would be better than current situation for sure, and would not affect me since I prefer providers who are older than early 20s.
However, I do think that age cutoff is way too high, and an example of infantilization of young adults. No wonder so many young Gen Z can't cope with "adulting", as they are being treated like children well into adulthood!

 

[Toni]

My reading over the years (and sorry, I no longer have the links nor the time to seek them out again) is that legalizing INCREASES trafficking and INCREASES illegal sex work. I personally was quite shocked and that totally changed my mind about legalization.

Prohibitionists claim that. I have seen no good evidence of it. Nor is there (afaik) a mechanism for legalization having such an effect.
What there is a mechanism for is for there being more reports of it. But that is a good thing. If more of the bad actors are exposed, they can be dealt with.
Another thing is that prohibitionist groups have a very broad definition of trafficking. If a woman moves, of her own accord, from Czechia to Munich and works as a sex worker, would you describe her as being "trafficked"? Prohibitionist groups usually do. That clearly inflates numbers.

I suppose it is rather comparable to having a coffee shop on the corner: it increases the traffic of people in the area looking for coffee and so other coffee shops pop up.

But why would it increase the number of illegal coffee shops? On the other hand, if you outlaw coffee shops, everybody seeking coffee is a criminal now.

Again: I honestly do not care about adults having mutually consensual sex with other adults, providing that all parties are in fact, adult and are, in fact consenting.

Then why do you think we should be treated as criminals?

Many years ago, a neighbor lady and I (I was a teenager at the time) were talking and she was rather upset with her husband who fiercely believed that a woman who was not tied up or knocked out could not be 'raped.' That if she 'gave in' after being punched and knocked around enough, well, that was consent. I am certain that he's not the only person to have that belief/attitude.

That is crazy, and I am quite sure you are not the only one with those beliefs. On the flipside, there are those who believe that if a man and a woman have been drinking, she can't consent. Or if he says that sex is important to him and would end the relationship unless there is sex, and she gives in, she has been "raped" because that is "coercion". There are crazy people on both extremes of almost any issue.
What does that have to do with discussion at hand though?

That is not the kind of consent I'm talking about. It's not consent if compliance is forced by physical force, use of intoxicants, or extortion: let me do what I want or I'll go after your kid.

Except for "use of intoxicants", I would agree. There is a level of intoxication that renders a person unable to consent, but not all use of intoxicants is that.

Let me do what I want or you'll be out on the street.

If a person A gives shelter to person B in exchange for sex, and B reneges, should that not invalidate the shelter agreement? A should not force B to have sex, but surely, B should be finding other accommodations.

I agree that there are a lot of gray areas. My assumption was always what yours was: that legalization would make it easier to find abd punish the bad actors that rely on coercion and underaged sex workers. But I keep reading otherwise. For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

Not that legal prostitution is so freeing forces workers in Nevada. I don’t know if the post I made earlier with links is still under review and so not visible. I’m not reposting the link because I’m not trying to be a jerk.

 

[Derec]

Persecuting. Yeah, you poor victim. Continually a reminder of the self-interest that drives your position on this.

Yes, being a victim of unjust laws is persecution.

And what's wrong with self-interest? If a gay man argued against sodomy laws pre-Lawrence, would you also dismiss his position because he had an interest in their repeal or invalidation? Or is your dismissive attitude motivated more by your personal antipathy toward me?

 

[Derec]

But I keep reading otherwise.

Because you keep reading prohibitionist screeds. Again, they conflate "trafficking" with any travel of sex workers. So they define a woman moving from České Budějovice to Munich and work as a sex worker (even if she is independent provider renting a room at a Laufhaus) as a "sex trafficking victim". A young woman moving from České Budějovice to Munich to work in a restaurant down the street is considered fine though.

For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

We discussed Nevada at length in these discussions over the years. Sex work is only allowed in a few rural counties. So all sex workers in Vegas or Reno are by definition "illegal". That does not mean they are being forced into it. Obviously Las Vegas will generate a much greater revenue than Pahrump.

Not that legal prostitution is so freeing forces workers in Nevada. I don’t know if the post I made earlier with links is still under review and so not visible. I’m not reposting the link because I’m not trying to be a jerk.

There is some moderation weirdness going on.

 

[Toni]

I have tremendous sympathy for those who are unable to enjoy a physical relationship (with or without sex) with another person for all sorts of reasons.

And yet you still want us in jail.

And for those people, I certainly have the most sympathy if they use sex workers to satisfy their needs for touch and/or sex and/or intimacy. It's a STRONG need that is both physical and emotional. I think that those who DO rely on paid sex workers to satisfy their needs DO feel persecuted when people like me speak out about the evils of sex work.

You betcha!

That's not my intention. I honestly want everyone to be as happy and healthy as possible, so long as their happiness does not involve harming other people, drowning kittens, pulling wings off of butterflies, etc. We just disagree about whether or not harm occurs and whether or not that harm is offset by money exchanging hands.

You sure come across that way.

Again: I don't find it immoral for two CONSENTING ADULTS to have whatever kind of relationship they choose, whether or not it involves sex or money. My only problem is with consent and with adults only. I honestly think that one should have to be at least 25 to engage in paid sex work--by which I mean having sex/sexual contact with clients for money or substitute. Yes, I would include 'exotic dancing' in the category of 25+ for that work. Probably only fans type of stuff as well. I'm sure there are plenty of platforms and forms of sex work I am not particularly familiar with.

It would be better than current situation for sure, and would not affect me since I prefer providers who are older than early 20s.
However, I do think that age cutoff is way too high, and an example of infantilization of young adults. No wonder so many young Gen Z can't cope with "adulting", as they are being treated like children well into adulthood!

I’m sorry if it comes across to you that I want to be punitive. Again, my only concerns are consent and actual adulthood. Well, health, safety and all that, of course.

The age I threw out there is in line with what many vacation rental properties have: 25+ only as the renter. The reason they gave that in place is to avoid damages to their property and complaints from neighbors about loud, drunken behavior, damage, etc. because people, in general, don’t necessarily have good sense/self control or the ability to stand up to others behaving badly when they are very young. Surely someone!/ health and wellbeing is more important, more valuable than a vacation rental or hotel room.

I don’t believe that it is impossible to give consent if you’ve had only one drink or equivalent. I do know as a fact that intoxication can vary between individuals. And I know from personal experience that there is a certain kind of person whose attitude seems to be that if she’s drunk, consent is not an issue—and unfortunately, often police and courts agree. And so do a number of people posting on this forum, based on a number of threads, including those about 16 year old girls and 35 year old men.

 

[Derec]

Please note that I am NOT suggesting that some prostitutes —and can we please stop using the word woman/women when so many prostitutes are not women?? —enjoy the work or prefer it to other work available to them.

Most sex workers are women I would say. That is what I think is driving the "Swedish model" - the radical feminists pushing it view women as default victims and men as default perpetrators.

I have NOT suggested making prostitution illegal and HAVE repeatedly said that I support decriminalizing prostitution.

Have you? So far you have pushed keeping it illegal, at least to the extent that you would prosecute clients. Which is it?

What I am saying over and over and over again—with links no one reads! is that legal prostitution has its issues that are not addressed and that one of the issues with legalized prostitution is that it actually increases the market for illegal prostitution: under aged, trafficked individuals who are essentially slaves in the sex industry. In Nevada, money from legal prostitution pales in comparison to illegal prostitution.

I do think issues with forced and underage prostitution should be addressed. Legal sex work is just the necessary condition for it - the local governments need to take it seriously and use the resources freed from not going after consenting adults for going after real wrongdoers. That does not happen by itself though.
On the issue of Nevada, the reason illegal sex work generates far more revenue is geography. Populous counties like Clark and Washoe cannot have legal sex work by state law. That does not mean that sex workers there are forced into it though. And is it any surprise that Las Vegas generates most revenue?

 

[laughing dog]

If prosecuting consenting adults who are breaking the law reduces human trafficking by reducing the demand for the illegal acts, your response is false.

To quote the laconic Spartans, "if".
I see no mechanism for this relationship to happen. At most reports of human trafficking would increase because it would be easier to find genuine wrongdoing and genuine victims when you are not conflating them with consenting adults.
But would that not be a good thing? What is more important to you, uncovering actual wrongdoing or "juking the stats"?

What is important to me is the empirical question. I don't know the answer and neither do you. At least I am not making up a priori excuses to dismiss possible future results.

So, the issue is an empirical one.

It's also an issue of individual freedoms. Used to be a time when "liberals" were about liberty.

Individual freedom is not an absolute. There are limits to everything.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, that's the thing. It doesn't matter what you consider sex work.

Where does the line get drawn? Is reading a script off of a piece of paper sex work?

I would say any paid work with the intent and express purpose of bringing or helping bring another person to erection* and/or orgasm is, in fact, sex work.

Some sex work is fairly more benign and safe than other work, but I don't think that makes it not "sex work".

By that definition any author of erotica would be a sex worker. I do not believe most such people would consider themselves sex workers. I used to know someone in that category and while I never asked them (couldn't have, I didn't know about it until they were dead) I can't imagine they would have considered themselves in that category.

I'm also very questioning as to whether an amateur couple selling a sex tape are sex workers. To me it feels it needs an element of something they would not have otherwise done.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

4. Lack of sufficient protection against violence and disease inherent in the work. No, I do not think sex is inherently violent but for some people, it is indeed, a way to express violence. No, I do not associate sex with disease but I know that it is an extremely good way to spread some nasty infections, just as passing around a cup of (whatever) on a bus full of school athletes is a good way to spread whatever virus anybody is harboring. Yeah, yeah, condoms but they break sometimes and we all know that some clients will refuse to use them or will pay extra to not use them. Don't @ me with tests. I am well aware of latency periods and the fact that one is most infectious before producing sufficient antibodies to whatever they are infected with. Shorter period with antigens but still, a latency period.

The problem here is that you are comparing legalized prostitution with no prostitution. The reality is that it should be compared with illegal prostitution. Perfect can't be attained, we should aim to minimize the harm.

And legal prostitution has a far better track record than illegal prostitution.

And note that there are more expensive tests with a much lower latency period. I think we will see them become far more mainstream now that Covid has shown us we can deploy tests with direct viral sensing at scale and for home use.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think people for some reason find it distasteful that there is even work and economic activity relating to it (see also: the people who read Handmaid's Tale and still don't understand who the villains were).

I have no problem with sex work and would not look down on someone for being a sex worker. But I feel you're trying to redefine the term here.

Another category comes to mind that's even farther out there--semen collection on a farm. I really do not think the semen collectors will consider their jobs sex work!

 

[Worldtraveller]

4. Lack of sufficient protection against violence and disease inherent in the work. No, I do not think sex is inherently violent but for some people, it is indeed, a way to express violence. No, I do not associate sex with disease but I know that it is an extremely good way to spread some nasty infections, just as passing around a cup of (whatever) on a bus full of school athletes is a good way to spread whatever virus anybody is harboring. Yeah, yeah, condoms but they break sometimes and we all know that some clients will refuse to use them or will pay extra to not use them. Don't @ me with tests. I am well aware of latency periods and the fact that one is most infectious before producing sufficient antibodies to whatever they are infected with. Shorter period with antigens but still, a latency period.

Perfect can't be attained, we should aim to minimize the harm.

I don't want to derail, but the irony of you posting this is next level. Now apply this same level of thinking to gun control and report back to us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?

No. Why do you ask?
My question was on the nature of US laws and places with legalized prostitution, not about human nature.

I can't fully address this but you would have a hard time working at a brothel here if you were underage--you would need a fake ID that would fool them.

Illegal brothels, though--no such problem. With the closest legal one being over an hour away there's definitely a market for illegal ones here in town.

BTW I have not been in Europe for decades. When I was, I assumed that the "red light districts" in Paris, Rome, Munich etc were all illegal or quasi-legal.

My understanding is Munich (and Germany in general) is legal, no idea on the others. Google says France is now (changed in 2016) illegal and Italy appears quasi-legal. (Prostitution legal, but from my read of it a red light district is not.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Reading that article I have some problems with it.

STD testing for the women but not for the clients? How do you propose to test clients?? We don't have anything that's fast enough. The brothels are not to blame for reality.

Confinement to brothel premises? That's a problem with the law, not the brothels.

I do agree the system needs improving but when they make claims on things that don't make sense I figure the rest is suspect, also.

 

[Toni]

4. Lack of sufficient protection against violence and disease inherent in the work. No, I do not think sex is inherently violent but for some people, it is indeed, a way to express violence. No, I do not associate sex with disease but I know that it is an extremely good way to spread some nasty infections, just as passing around a cup of (whatever) on a bus full of school athletes is a good way to spread whatever virus anybody is harboring. Yeah, yeah, condoms but they break sometimes and we all know that some clients will refuse to use them or will pay extra to not use them. Don't @ me with tests. I am well aware of latency periods and the fact that one is most infectious before producing sufficient antibodies to whatever they are infected with. Shorter period with antigens but still, a latency period.

The problem here is that you are comparing legalized prostitution with no prostitution. The reality is that it should be compared with illegal prostitution. Perfect can't be attained, we should aim to minimize the harm.

And legal prostitution has a far better track record than illegal prostitution.

And note that there are more expensive tests with a much lower latency period. I think we will see them become far more mainstream now that Covid has shown us we can deploy tests with direct viral sensing at scale and for home use.

Loren, I have a deal of professional knowledge and experience when it comes to testing for HIV and some ( but not all) STIs. I am extremely aware of the limits of such tests, the availability, the use and administration and the percentage of false negatives and false positives, the need for confirmatory testing and quite a lot more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When I say regulated, I mean Federally. I mean W-2s, FICA, Federally licensed. I'm not suggesting any existing system in the US is the gold standard. I'm saying stripped down, build something huge. There'd be a undersecretary in the White House for the Department of Labor for it. I'm talking training programs, psychology and physical (sex-ed, not practice).

Ours are independent contractors, that means a different form. But they still go through the system.

(And I find that independent contractor status questionable, but there are an awful lot of places where it's being abused.)

Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.

I'd imagine easily tens of thousands of women currently are being exploited. The prohibition on the trade is an abject failure in protecting the civil rights of those women.

Exactly--which path has less harm.

Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.

I suppose we could just go with the status quo which isn't remotely working. Exploiting drug addicts, homeless, at risk folks, even importing women from other countries to have sex with NFL Team owners. Let's pretend we have a handle on it. Or that *giggle* a couple hundred more officers could fix it.

Or we could legalize it. We can create a bill of rights for it. We can make it federally stamped. And we can make it a federal crime to use unregistered workers. Because it isn't going away. But the thing Toni is this, the above isn't going to happen, and women will continue being exploited in the status quo. If women can obfuscate their minds to think supporting Donald Trump is good for women, men should have no issue obfuscating that there is no harm / no foul. I can't fix that, it is among the many large scale things I can't fix.

And if we license it without making them jump through a lot of garbage that makes people who patronize unlicensed ones have a strong suspicion that things aren't right.

My take on it:

Prostitution license, app on your phone. The client-facing side has a photo and a 2D barcode. The client app scans the code and brings up the same photo and whether the tests are recent enough. No names. (The client app is needed as a confirmation that they did indeed check the person is legal and to avoid deceptive URLs and provides an identity the police can track if there's a trick roll or the like. Other than that it's just a QR code.)

Personally, I think streetwalking should be limited to unused parts of town (there's a lot of commercial/light industrial areas that have basically nobody outside normal working hours)--but I dislike sidewalk business in the first place. Incall requires commercial zoning.

 

[Toni]

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Reading that article I have some problems with it.

STD testing for the women but not for the clients? How do you propose to test clients?? We don't have anything that's fast enough. The brothels are not to blame for reality.

Confinement to brothel premises? That's a problem with the law, not the brothels.

I do agree the system needs improving but when they make claims on things that don't make sense I figure the rest is suspect, also.

There are rapid HIV tests available. Results available in 30 minutes. Made for at home testing so expertise should not be an issue. However, there is still a problem detecting recent infections, which can indeed be highly transmittable.

Weekly testing is insufficient, assuming sex workers work 5 days a week.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Reading that article I have some problems with it.

STD testing for the women but not for the clients? How do you propose to test clients?? We don't have anything that's fast enough. The brothels are not to blame for reality.

Confinement to brothel premises? That's a problem with the law, not the brothels.

I do agree the system needs improving but when they make claims on things that don't make sense I figure the rest is suspect, also.

There are rapid HIV tests available. Results available in 30 minutes. Made for at home testing so expertise should not be an issue. However, there is still a problem detecting recent infections, which can indeed be highly transmittable.

Weekly testing is insufficient, assuming sex workers work 5 days a week.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Reading that article I have some problems with it.

STD testing for the women but not for the clients? How do you propose to test clients?? We don't have anything that's fast enough. The brothels are not to blame for reality.

Confinement to brothel premises? That's a problem with the law, not the brothels.

I do agree the system needs improving but when they make claims on things that don't make sense I figure the rest is suspect, also.

There are rapid HIV tests available. Results available in 30 minutes. Made for at home testing so expertise should not be an issue. However, there is still a problem detecting recent infections, which can indeed be highly transmittable.

Weekly testing is insufficient, assuming sex workers work 5 days a week.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You only have to get HIV or another STD once. Some aren't curable. Some things should aim to be perfect.