Split Legalized Prostitution split from GOP: The party of idiots

[Toni]

For the safest/least likely to transmit STIs, the solution is a closed set of participants. The more individuals, the greater the chance of transmission.

HIV testing has come a very long way. So has treatment!!!

However, sex workers are, by the nature of their work, far more likely to be exposed than the average person. This is especially true because of the high correlation of drug use/alcohol abuse which compromise immune systems and judgement. Best practices would involve mandatory testing—rapid for the client at time of services, daily testing for sex workers and universal, mandatory condom use. Testing should be done or at least constantly monitored by health department to ensure proper procedures and reporting.

 

[Toni]

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Reading that article I have some problems with it.

STD testing for the women but not for the clients? How do you propose to test clients?? We don't have anything that's fast enough. The brothels are not to blame for reality.

Confinement to brothel premises? That's a problem with the law, not the brothels.

I do agree the system needs improving but when they make claims on things that don't make sense I figure the rest is suspect, also.

There are rapid HIV tests available. Results available in 30 minutes. Made for at home testing so expertise should not be an issue. However, there is still a problem detecting recent infections, which can indeed be highly transmittable.

Weekly testing is insufficient, assuming sex workers work 5 days a week.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You’re letting an orgasm to be more important than someone else’s life.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A partial list of other things that ‘are not going away:’

Murder
Arson
Stealing
Fraud
Rape
Assault
Running stop signs/stop lights
DUI


How about just legalizing those?

Would such things cause more problems legal/regulated or illegal?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!

Yes, it is.

I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do.

In many places (including here) it isn't a crime at all.

The USA is an outlier in this area of law, when compared to the rest of the OECD, probably because of your (also an outlier) levels of religiousity.

Really. So in Australia there is no illegal sex trafficking?

Human trafficking reports continue to increase in Australia | Australian Federal Police

Complaints of human trafficking in Australia continues to increase year on year, with the AFP receiving 340 reports of offences including forced marriage and sexual servitude in just 12 months over the 2022/23 financial year.

www.afp.gov.au

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/sb_human_trafficking_050219.pdf

You think forced marriage has anything to do with sex trafficking?!?!

 

[Toni]

But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!

Yes, it is.

I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do.

In many places (including here) it isn't a crime at all.

The USA is an outlier in this area of law, when compared to the rest of the OECD, probably because of your (also an outlier) levels of religiousity.

Really. So in Australia there is no illegal sex trafficking?

Human trafficking reports continue to increase in Australia | Australian Federal Police

Complaints of human trafficking in Australia continues to increase year on year, with the AFP receiving 340 reports of offences including forced marriage and sexual servitude in just 12 months over the 2022/23 financial year.

www.afp.gov.au

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/sb_human_trafficking_050219.pdf

You think forced marriage has anything to do with sex trafficking?!?!

I think that forcing 11 and 12 year olds is definitely forced participation in sex with an adult —in other words rape. Usually to cover up previous/ongoing rapes. And yes, there are children who are being transported across state and international lines to be married to adults.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another thing is that prohibitionist groups have a very broad definition of trafficking. If a woman moves, of her own accord, from Czechia to Munich and works as a sex worker, would you describe her as being "trafficked"? Prohibitionist groups usually do. That clearly inflates numbers.

Exactly. When the truth isn't obvious you almost always will be right by looking at the side that uses higher quality data.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don’t believe that it is impossible to give consent if you’ve had only one drink or equivalent. I do know as a fact that intoxication can vary between individuals. And I know from personal experience that there is a certain kind of person whose attitude seems to be that if she’s drunk, consent is not an issue—and unfortunately, often police and courts agree. And so do a number of people posting on this forum, based on a number of threads, including those about 16 year old girls and 35 year old men.

Note that a drunk person makes a very poor witness. Without additional evidence will a jury buy it?

Especially since there have been multiple cases where it's clearly known she actually did consent at the time but doesn't remember it--looks back the next day and thinks it must be rape. Yeah, not really able to give consent--but if it's not apparent to others they have no way of knowing that. You would effectively outlaw drunken hookups.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Another thing is that prohibitionist groups have a very broad definition of trafficking. If a woman moves, of her own accord, from Czechia to Munich and works as a sex worker, would you describe her as being "trafficked"? Prohibitionist groups usually do. That clearly inflates numbers.

Exactly. When the truth isn't obvious you almost always will be right by looking at the side that uses higher quality data.

Exactly? How bad is this offense by the prohibitionists? Are the majority of those "trafficked" actually just people who moved or are you two just pooping in the tub?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You only have to get HIV or another STD once. Some aren't curable. Some things should aim to be perfect.

You're still missing the fact that it's a comparison between legalized prostitution and illegal prostitution. No prostitution isn't on the ballot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You think forced marriage has anything to do with sex trafficking?!?!

I think that forcing 11 and 12 year olds is definitely forced participation in sex with an adult —in other words rape. Usually to cover up previous/ongoing rapes. And yes, there are children who are being transported across state and international lines to be married to adults.

I agree there are such rapes--but I do not think prostitution laws are in any way relevant.

And I agree there are people transported for the purpose--but, again, I see no way prostitution laws will be relevant.

Not all unwanted sex is prostitution, not all prostitution is unwanted sex.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You only have to get HIV or another STD once. Some aren't curable. Some things should aim to be perfect.

You're still missing the fact that it's a comparison between legalized prostitution and illegal prostitution. No prostitution isn't on the ballot.

You already quoted me indicating the steps I think are necessary to take in order to manage this... so what is this?

My response there was regarding your nonchalant attitude on worker safety due to convenience and technological/cost problems.

 

[southernhybrid]

The following linked article was written by a sex worker in Nevada who loves her job. Btw, there are medications that one can take to prevent HIV. If sex work was legal and regulated, the medication could be required to be provided by the owner of the brothel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-misconceptions-about-what-i-do-10460454.html

I've been working in Nevada's legal brothels for almost a year and a half now. In this time I've learned a lot about sexuality, psychology and relationships. My job is a mix of customer service and fantasy fulfillment, and I love it. It suits my needs and allows me financial stability I never had access to before. However, what I've noticed since starting this career is that there is a lot that the general public doesn't seem to get about sex work. Here are some of the biggest misconceptions:


Sex work is a physically intimate therapy session for most of our clients. Many workers who work independently also have to schedule hotel rooms, vet their clients to make sure they aren't dangerous, run their own websites and handle marketing.

2. 'Sex workers spread disease'​

In Nevada, all the state's thousands of legally working sexual companions have mandatory STD testing every week. There has never been a case of HIV reported in the brothel system in Nevada. We use condoms for all of our services – including condoms for blow jobs and dental dams for cunnilingus.

We take our health seriously: just like a massage therapist or a labor contractor, if our bodies aren't in top shape, we can't pay our bills, feed ourselves or support our families. To jeopardise our health and our clients' health for one client's desires could ruin our reputation and cost us our jobs. So we take many precautions to protect ourselves and our clients.

3. 'Only creeps, losers and desperate guys visit sex workers'​

You'd be surprised at the range of people who walk through our doors. We entertain middle-aged couples looking to spice up their love life. Young military veterans visit struggling to transition back into civilian life and dating. Respectable business men, lawyers, doctors, and professionals who are overworked without time for dating. Men with Asperger's who find navigating traditional social relationships challenging and confusing. For many, seeing a sex worker is more than just the act of sex.

 

[Toni]

You think forced marriage has anything to do with sex trafficking?!?!

I think that forcing 11 and 12 year olds is definitely forced participation in sex with an adult —in other words rape. Usually to cover up previous/ongoing rapes. And yes, there are children who are being transported across state and international lines to be married to adults.

I agree there are such rapes--but I do not think prostitution laws are in any way relevant.

And I agree there are people transported for the purpose--but, again, I see no way prostitution laws will be relevant.

Not all unwanted sex is prostitution, not all prostitution is unwanted sex.

The question wasn’t whether or not this was prostitution but whether or not it is human trafficking and I think that in some cases, where state lines are crossed, it might well be.

 

[Toni]

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You only have to get HIV or another STD once. Some aren't curable. Some things should aim to be perfect.

You're still missing the fact that it's a comparison between legalized prostitution and illegal prostitution. No prostitution isn't on the ballot.

Nope.

 

[Jarhyn]

Well, that's the thing. It doesn't matter what you consider sex work.

Where does the line get drawn? Is reading a script off of a piece of paper sex work?

I would say any paid work with the intent and express purpose of bringing or helping bring another person to erection* and/or orgasm is, in fact, sex work.

Some sex work is fairly more benign and safe than other work, but I don't think that makes it not "sex work".

By that definition any author of erotica would be a sex worker. I do not believe most such people would consider themselves sex workers. I used to know someone in that category and while I never asked them (couldn't have, I didn't know about it until they were dead) I can't imagine they would have considered themselves in that category.

I'm also very questioning as to whether an amateur couple selling a sex tape are sex workers. To me it feels it needs an element of something they would not have otherwise done.

I think there's a big difference between someone who makes the majority of their money through sex work and someone who does occasional sex work as a hobby, and someone who does sex work because they have no other choice.

I do think that people are wildly unrealistic about what is and is not sex work, too.

"There are shop boys and then there are boys that happen to work in shops," and all that

 

[jonatha]

For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

Surely this is primarily because prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas yet commonplace.

 

[Toni]

For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

Surely this is primarily because prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas yet commonplace.

Why? Prostitution is legal in 10 out of Nevada's 16 counties. Nevada is a low population state, with a total population of a bit over 3 million. Yet illegal prostitution accounts for billions of dollars of revenue.

 

[Elixir]

For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

Surely this is primarily because prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas yet commonplace.

Why? Prostitution is legal in 10 out of Nevada's 16 counties. Nevada is a low population state, with a total population of a bit over 3 million. Yet illegal prostitution accounts for billions of dollars of revenue.

For one thing most of that money is from out of state, not from the 3m residents.
Most visitors are in LV, where it is illegal.

 

[Toni]

For instance, in Nevada, the money generated by illegal prostitution is much, much, much higher than the money generated by legal prostitution.

Surely this is primarily because prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas yet commonplace.

Why? Prostitution is legal in 10 out of Nevada's 16 counties. Nevada is a low population state, with a total population of a bit over 3 million. Yet illegal prostitution accounts for billions of dollars of revenue.

For one thing most of that money is from out of state, not from the 3m residents.
Most visitors are in LV, where it is illegal.

I know. For some reason, prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas but not in surrounding counties. I wonder why? Not really: I’m certain that there are billion$$ of reasons….

 

[TomC]

I know. For some reason, prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas but not in surrounding counties. I wonder why? Not really: I’m certain that there are billion$$ of reasons….

Yeah.
The only time I've been to Vegas I was too young to do anything but sightseeing.
But old cynical me is pretty sure that legalizing prostitution was a way for surrounding counties to cash in on all that tourist money.
Tom