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Let's fuck!

Let's Fuck!

Anybody interested in getting laid? With me of course! All comers welcome. Male or female.

Now before you get all upset, let me explain. If we were like Bonobo chimps, the above statement would generate no controversy. Your response might be, "Uh, I could fit you in at 4:30, but you'd have to hurry because Mike is coming by at 6, and Lisa is scheduled for a 3:00 o'clock session." Bonobos are of course famous for living an orgiastic existence, involving both gay and straight sexual activity. But I suspect if I truly said the above in polite society (and even not so polite society), I'd be run out of town and tarred and feathered. But at the same time, we all crave sex and fantasize about living the Bonobo chimp lifestyle - heterosexually if not bisexually at least. Sex is pleasurable; so why don't we constantly do it? And what difference would it make if you're in a relationship? Why would your partner care if you engage in pleasurable activities without him/her? I suspect you do a lot of things that you enjoy without your partner. Why should sex be any different?

And why should it matter if it were gay or straight sex? Presumably gay sex is pleasurable as well. But why then are heterosexual people turned off by it?

So what's the big deal? Let's get naked!

SLD

Bonobos are the perverted uncle of the ape family tree.

Granted, chimps[ent]mdash[/ent]like humans[ent]mdash[/ent]wage war for resources much like humans and unlike bonobos, and bonobos can be admired for that, but I find the "use sex for every kind of social interaction" kind of creepy. Bonobos are very closely related to chimps and humans, so there is every reason to believe that they might have heterosexual and homosexual individuals.

If I am correct about that, this means that their culture is such that they simply expect homosexuals to have sex with the opposite sex and heterosexuals to have sex with the same sex.

Uhm.

Ew.

I suppose it's possible that they are all bisexual by birth, but until someone can figure that out biologically, I'm going to assume they're expecting individuals to have sex with a gender they aren't attracted to. Yuck.

I beg to differ.

That "Ew" itself is in large part cultural. There was one longtitudinal study in Germany (if you're interested, I can try to dig up the citation) that found that young men were experimenting with same-sex stuff at much higher rates in the 50s, 60s, and 70s than today, and iirc they explained in that today's men are more afraid to be (seen as) gay than men were when gays weren't so visible. The notion that you have to be gay to enjoy an occasional blowjob by another man is probably not instinctive - lips are lips, assuming he's decently shaved, and if he isn't, you might learn a valuable lesson about what it feels like for your girlfriend when you aren't.

To me that confirms that there is a cultural component involved, but it does not convince me that there is no genetic component. My interpretation of that study would be that sexuality is much more fluid than historical, conservative societies classically allowed for. So yes, culture can act as a deterrent to homosexual behaviour, but I do have my doubts that our tendency of disinclination towards it is entirely social. Genetically, heterosexual behaviour is adaptive, and homosexual behaviour is maladaptive, so in theory we should see people who are more interested in homosexuality fall out of the population.

Coming from personal experience, I have absolutely no desire to have a sexual encounter with any man, and I'm about as comfortable with homosexuality as it gets. I just do not find men physically attractive. Often intellectually attractive, yes, but never physically.
 
One doesn't follow from the other.

Why not? Finding something sexual "icky" is a sexual preference. Either sexual preferences are in-built with no choice, or they are not. You can't have it both ways.

No, it isn't. There can be a built in bases for sexual preferences that stops far short of covering everything we culturally associate with a gay vs. hetero habitus. And we know empirically that young people who turned out heterosexuals found experimenting with with homosexuality much less icky 40 years ago than they do today.
 
To me that confirms that there is a cultural component involved, but it does not convince me that there is no genetic component.

I didn't say there wasn't.

My interpretation of that study would be that sexuality is much more fluid than historical, conservative societies classically allowed for. So yes, culture can act as a deterrent to homosexual behaviour, but I do have my doubts that our tendency of disinclination towards it is entirely social. Genetically, heterosexual behaviour is adaptive, and homosexual behaviour is maladaptive, so in theory we should see people who are more interested in homosexuality fall out of the population.

None of this seems relevant to my point.

Coming from personal experience, I have absolutely no desire to have a sexual encounter with any man, and I'm about as comfortable with homosexuality as it gets. I just do not find men physically attractive. Often intellectually attractive, yes, but never physically.

Again, not very relevant. Like every other adult alive, you're the product of both your genes and your upbringing. Looking at a single individual, or at a single society at a single point in time, isn't going to be very useful for disentangling the two.
 
So it's either necessary, not necessary, useful, or optional.

OK.

Personal history data point of two. Our sex dropped off after partner entered menopause until she went on pill to combat those symptoms. until she went off it to avoid cancer after she developed breast cancer. Now we are touching and rubbing as a sex substitute since our energy levels are down and I have heart failure. It's working fine, it worked fine in all above situations. so ...... maybe .... maybe not ..... Oh shes literally from southern Italy and I'm descended from rural Denmark and northern Sweden.Seems to work for my eldest son and his partner as well. They were raised in SF valley and LA basin with roots from as am I and bride fron Myanmar .

We are just one peculiar thread in some researcher from UCLA's 400,000 pairing aimed at understanding such behavior. Neither our circumstance nor that of others in study are of much consequence. Nor are findings of the study itself IMHO.
 
I didn't say there wasn't.



None of this seems relevant to my point.

Coming from personal experience, I have absolutely no desire to have a sexual encounter with any man, and I'm about as comfortable with homosexuality as it gets. I just do not find men physically attractive. Often intellectually attractive, yes, but never physically.

Again, not very relevant. Like every other adult alive, you're the product of both your genes and your upbringing. Looking at a single individual, or at a single society at a single point in time, isn't going to be very useful for disentangling the two.

Ok, if I'm clear on your point it is that sexual preferences are at least partially cultural? There we agree. But I think your study is still a long way from proving the degree to which it's cultural, or that culture even plays a significant part in sexual preferences.

You could also interpret your study as that there were simply more gay, or partially gay men, who were deterred from experimentation due to their material interests. It doesn't necessarily mean that strongly heterosexual men became more comfortable with homosexual behaviour.

If anything, socially conservative cultures probably do more to maintain genetic homosexuality by forcing homosexual people to enter into heterosexual partnerships, and reproduce.

In any case, I just don't see any convincing evidence in your study.

If I'm missing your point again, please clarify.
 
I didn't say there wasn't.



None of this seems relevant to my point.

Coming from personal experience, I have absolutely no desire to have a sexual encounter with any man, and I'm about as comfortable with homosexuality as it gets. I just do not find men physically attractive. Often intellectually attractive, yes, but never physically.

Again, not very relevant. Like every other adult alive, you're the product of both your genes and your upbringing. Looking at a single individual, or at a single society at a single point in time, isn't going to be very useful for disentangling the two.

Ok, if I'm clear on your point it is that sexual preferences are at least partially cultural?

Not so much sexual preference in itself, but how we conceptualise it. I tend to think that whether one is mostly attracted to men or mostly attracted to women is for the most part fixed at birth or in early childhood. But conceptualising this as being either homosexual or heterosexual, and consequently finding any hint of sexual activity with the dispreferred sex deeply discomforting isn't.

The idea that you have to be a different kind of person to like men that way is pretty new. Even in cultures that penalised gay sex, the general notion doesn't appear to have been that there's a special kind of people that should be eradicated, but that the act is so bad that anyone who gives in to this temptation is to be punished - which almost assumes that everyone is potentially tempted, even though the temptation may be much stronger for some people than for others.

Now, if you don't have this idea of this clear line, you might, as an adolescent or young adult, experiment with same-sex sex because why not? If you're wired to like the opposite sex, it probably won't be all that great so you probably won't make a habit out of it. But when you have this idea that there gays and heteros and little in between, knowing that you're mostly attracted to women makes you hetero, makes even trying off limits, and makes the idea seem more yucky than it otherwise would even if your preferences themselves are exactly the same.

ETA: When Paul adressed the Korinthians, he didn't say "this is going to be irrelevant to most of you, but it's going to be pretty hard to swallow for the gays among; sorry about that, gays, it's just what God demands". He addressed his sermon against same-sex sex to the entire congregation, obviously expecting that every last man could be a potential transgressor.

There we agree. But I think your study is still a long way from proving the degree to which it's cultural, or that culture even plays a significant part in sexual preferences.

You could also interpret your study as that there were simply more gay, or partially gay men, who were deterred from experimentation due to their material interests. It doesn't necessarily mean that strongly heterosexual men became more comfortable with homosexual behaviour.

I think you misunderstood: The result was actually the opposite of what one might naively expect: When homosexuality was less visible, generally frowned upon much more, and same-sex acts actually punishable by law, more, not less, people reported having experimented with same-sex sex. When homosexuals became more visible and accepted, at the price of being construed as a different kind of people who have desires no "normal" person could possibly have, the numbers of young men reporting ever having given or received a blowjob from another man etc. dropped -- now that they had to prove, if only to themselves, that they're not one of them, they were starting to find the things their fathers and grandfathers had done out of curiosity (despite their illegality) extremely icky!
 
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I think you misunderstood: The result was actually the opposite of what one might naively expect: When homosexuality was less visible, generally frowned upon much more, and same-sex acts actually punishable by law, more, not less, people reported having experimented with same-sex sex. When homosexuals became more visible and accepted, at the price of being construed as a different kind of people who have desires no "normal" person could possibly have, the numbers of young men reporting ever having given or received a blowjob from another man etc. dropped -- now that they had to prove, if only to themselves, that they're not one of them, they were starting to find the things their fathers and grandfathers had done out of curiosity (despite their illegality) extremely icky!

But what is wrong with that? What is wrong with people disliking the idea of gay sex? Everyone should be allowed to have their own sexual preferences, and if they are put off by the idea of gay sex, they shouldn't be judged because of that. They are not harming you by feeling that way so why not just live and let live? I personally agree with them - I think it is "icky" - and I find it very hard to believe your reported surbey is genuine (or at least not flawed in some fundamental way).
 
I'm wondering how Jon would fare as a bonobo. Not very well, I expect. ;)

But I also wonder how bonobos would fare if their social groups were larger; and how they deal with interactions between different groupings of bonobos. I know that common chimps have what are essentially wars between different communities- if there were enough bonobos so that population pressures started affecting them, I doubt that they could manage to fuck their way out of that problem.

And there, I think, is the deepest explanation of why we humans can't use bonobo methods of social interaction, as enjoyable as that might be (to some of us, anyway.) There's simply too many of us, and also too many competing groups of us.
 
I think you misunderstood: The result was actually the opposite of what one might naively expect: When homosexuality was less visible, generally frowned upon much more, and same-sex acts actually punishable by law, more, not less, people reported having experimented with same-sex sex. When homosexuals became more visible and accepted, at the price of being construed as a different kind of people who have desires no "normal" person could possibly have, the numbers of young men reporting ever having given or received a blowjob from another man etc. dropped -- now that they had to prove, if only to themselves, that they're not one of them, they were starting to find the things their fathers and grandfathers had done out of curiosity (despite their illegality) extremely icky!

But what is wrong with that? What is wrong with people disliking the idea of gay sex? Everyone should be allowed to have their own sexual preferences, and if they are put off by the idea of gay sex, they shouldn't be judged because of that.

Where do you get the idea that I'm judging?
 
Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land explored this. Basically, if humans lived in a commune and all loved each other we would permit this kind of free love because it makes our loved ones happy.

I'm skeptical that human jealousies could be so easily overcome. If saw someone having sex with the woman I am in love with, I would be extremely upset. I would be jealous and emotionally hurt. I would wonder what he has that I don't. Even though it may just be a momentary desire and I wasn't around.

SLD

How much of this, though, is due to cultural/societal conditioning, that you're supposed to feel that way. It's nearly impossible to sort out or separate the source of a lot of our emotional baggage. Also, there seems to be a trend (not exactly popular, but seems to be increasing) for this sort of relationship in younger generations, so it's possible that the family/sex commune thing is entirely possible for a lot of people.

I suspect, like a lot of social norms, it only scales so far, though.
 
Is this statement as disingenuous as the offer? Or are you honestly under the impression that it's true?
While there are a few people who have no sex drive virtually all of us do in fact crave sex.

Are you using the word "crave" to encompass all non-zero levels of sexual desire?

Also, what about the rest of the quoted statement? i.e. your assertion that we all fantasize about living the bonobo chimp lifestyle?

Sexual cravings are the strongest cravings men experience. Compared to any other enjoyment man seeks, sex is by far the most pleasurable and most desired. A man may enjoy playing golf with his friends, but there are few golf games played where sex isn't discussed in some fashion. Every man I know with whom I've mentioned the Bonobo chimp lifestyle to has quipped something to the effect of that sounds nice. There's an allure to living such a lifestyle undoubtedly. But we almost all pull back from such. And my question is why is that?

If sex is so pleasurable why is that we don't just constantly do it? What is it about human nature that stops us from being like Bonobos?

SLD

This is a pretty bold and unqualified statement, so [citation needed].

I think a more nuanced and realistic way of looking at this would be that our desires vary greatly based on age, relationship status, and many other social and individual factors.

For instance, if I had to choose between a few hours on the race track on my motorcycle, and a few hours of hot sex, I'd take the track time 9/10s of the time. When I was in my 20s, that would have been closer to 50/50....
 
Where do you get the idea that I'm judging?

Pretty much the tone of every post you have made in this thread.

I recall when I was a young teenager (14ish), I had a best friend that I used to hang out with all the time. We would go to his house after school and play video games and talk. We were both a bit nerdy so neither of us had a girlfriend. One day he made a sexual pass at me (I now can't remember what he said - maybe I have expunged it from my mind - but I recall it was unambiguous). I told him something along the lines of "hell, no!" and walked out. I never went back, and I only exchanged a few words with him ever again (telling him to stay away from me when he approached me at school). Looking back, that maybe seems harsh, but he literally turned my stomach - I felt betrayed by him, and couldn't bear to spend any more time with him. I have actually never told anyone about that before (I certainly didn't tell anyone at the time because I recall feeling guilty that he had even thought of me in that way). The funny thing is, I don't think he was (or is) gay. He now has a family, with wife and kids and seems settled (to an outsider at least).
 
Where do you get the idea that I'm judging?

Pretty much the tone of every post you have made in this thread.

Unless you're going to be more specific, I think you're reading this into my posts yourself.

I recall when I was a young teenager (14ish), I had a best friend that I used to hang out with all the time. We would go to his house after school and play video games and talk. We were both a bit nerdy so neither of us had a girlfriend. One day he made a sexual pass at me (I now can't remember what he said - maybe I have expunged it from my mind - but I recall it was unambiguous). I told him something along the lines of "hell, no!" and walked out. I never went back, and I only exchanged a few words with him ever again (telling him to stay away from me when he approached me at school). Looking back, that maybe seems harsh, but he literally turned my stomach - I felt betrayed by him, and couldn't bear to spend any more time with him. I have actually never told anyone about that before (I certainly didn't tell anyone at the time because I recall feeling guilty that he had even thought of me in that way). The funny thing is, I don't think he was (or is) gay. He now has a family, with wife and kids and seems settled (to an outsider at least).

Thanks for sharing, but I still don't think that's particularly relevant to my point. That fact that you felt that way is all the justification you need to turn down his offer - irrespective of whether you were born feeling that way. It's also quite uninformative as to whether you were born feeling this way.

All I'm saying is that there were more young men like your best friend in our fathers' generation than in ours. This alone shows that a reaction like yours is not in all cases innate. It doesn't tell us whether it might be still innate in your particular case, and it doesn't make you the target of blame if it isn't.
 
Unless you're going to be more specific, I think you're reading this into my posts yourself.

I recall when I was a young teenager (14ish), I had a best friend that I used to hang out with all the time. We would go to his house after school and play video games and talk. We were both a bit nerdy so neither of us had a girlfriend. One day he made a sexual pass at me (I now can't remember what he said - maybe I have expunged it from my mind - but I recall it was unambiguous). I told him something along the lines of "hell, no!" and walked out. I never went back, and I only exchanged a few words with him ever again (telling him to stay away from me when he approached me at school). Looking back, that maybe seems harsh, but he literally turned my stomach - I felt betrayed by him, and couldn't bear to spend any more time with him. I have actually never told anyone about that before (I certainly didn't tell anyone at the time because I recall feeling guilty that he had even thought of me in that way). The funny thing is, I don't think he was (or is) gay. He now has a family, with wife and kids and seems settled (to an outsider at least).

Thanks for sharing, but I still don't think that's particularly relevant to my point. That fact that you felt that way is all the justification you need to turn down his offer - irrespective of whether you were born feeling that way. It's also quite uninformative as to whether you were born feeling this way.

All I'm saying is that there were more young men like your best friend in our fathers' generation than in ours. This alone shows that a reaction like yours is not in all cases innate. It doesn't tell us whether it might be still innate in your particular case, and it doesn't make you the target of blame if it isn't.

Uh, his reaction isn't different than for a girl to have the same unwelcome invitation issued to her by a male friend she thought of as a fellow nerd/platonic friend, although there would likely be a greater pressure for her to talk it out with him (and probably get propositioned again.)
 
I think two factors in the equation may be protection of offspring by having a nuclear family and minimizing spread of STDs throughout the population.
 
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