• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Media treatment of Bernie Sanders: a story in pictures

Finally (today at least, I hope), this lovely headline from The Hill:

Hill.JPG

Imagine reporting on a head-to-head poll in a swing state, thinking 2% is a difference worth mentioning, and yet failing to highlight the candidate who actually beats Trump in that matchup

iowa.png
 
Finally (today at least, I hope), this lovely headline from The Hill:

View attachment 24412

Imagine reporting on a head-to-head poll in a swing state, thinking 2% is a difference worth mentioning, and yet failing to highlight the candidate who actually beats Trump in that matchup

View attachment 24413

They failed to mention all the other candidates as well. The point here is that two front runners, Biden and Warren, are actually at great risk of losing to Trump. That Bernie can beat Trump isn't any more news than that Yang and Tulsi can also beat Trump. Bernie and Yang are the only two that can pluck out 10% of Trump's own voters, which is a separate story people should be reporting.
 
We now return to Bernie Sanders, whose head is actually this color in real life

View attachment 24291

I noticed this too. It was pretty bad.

The mainstream media has been against Bernie since he ran in 2016. The only reason they are now supporting Warren is because she's a compromise so they can still avoid Bernie. Warren has many of Bernie's talking points but is also a little cozy with the establishment and I think they think they can control her. But even that is a pretty big accomplishment. Warren is a huge step up from Hillary Clinton, even if Warren only winds up meaning half of what she says.
 
Finally (today at least, I hope), this lovely headline from The Hill:

View attachment 24412

Imagine reporting on a head-to-head poll in a swing state, thinking 2% is a difference worth mentioning, and yet failing to highlight the candidate who actually beats Trump in that matchup

View attachment 24413

They failed to mention all the other candidates as well. The point here is that two front runners, Biden and Warren, are actually at great risk of losing to Trump. That Bernie can beat Trump isn't any more news than that Yang and Tulsi can also beat Trump. Bernie and Yang are the only two that can pluck out 10% of Trump's own voters, which is a separate story people should be reporting.

The poll didn't pit Yang (or any other candidate outside Sanders, Warren, and Biden) against Trump, so there was nothing to mention.
 
Nate Silver proves again he can't do math:

View attachment 24410

Looking a little closer...

View attachment 24411

Warren's numbers improved by 2.2, which is the "most", while Sanders' numbers improved by only 2.2, which is "meh"

Notice how despite consistently now coming in 4th or 5th in polls, Yang is yet again not even mentioned in the above text blurb. Yang gets media blackout as bad or worse than Bernie did back in 2016.
 
Isn't Krystal Ball on The Hill? I've been watching some of her stuff, along with her co-host, Sagar, and she seems to be very pro-Bernie. Weird then that the Hill would exclude him from their reporting. Or maybe its a different The Hill?

Krystal Ball from The Hill before the latest debate said:
No. There are only three candidates on the stage who have the credibility to hit Warren where it hurts, Bernie, Tulsi, and Yang. Because Warren's vulnerability isn't that she's too far left or too centrist, it's that she's too establishment. Too cozy with the system that everyone hates. That she plays too many of the Washington games that voters are utterly disgusted with.

Washington games are why when Warren's asked about Biden's soft-corruption she gets flustered. Do I say what I actually believe or do I preserve the chance to be Biden's VP or Treasury Secretary?

That's why she's a crusader against corporate greed except when it comes to the medical device manufacturers who bring home the bacon in her own home state. Instead, Warren repeatedly pushed loopholes for them and was a primary mover behind repealing the medical device tax that was passed with Obamacare. That's why Warren calls herself a progressive but endorsed HRC once it was clear she'd be the nominee. That's why Warren promised the party that all this grassroots donor stuff would not apply to them. Her campaign made sure to make clear that Warren will still do high dollar fundraisers for the DNC. It's why she opposed single payer when she was running for Senate, but says I'm with Bernie now that the base wants to hear that. She's a more progressive version of the same old Washington stuff. But it would probably be pretty hard for Kamala Harris or another centrist to make that case.

I think Krystal nails this directly on the head, and that this is the key difference between Warren and Bernie. Bernie outright declares himself a threat to the establishment. Whereas Bernie will jump into change with both feet, Warren will keep one foot firmly in line with the current establishment, in case the wind blows the other way. I knew of and was supporting Warren in 2014, before I heard of this Bernie Sanders guy. In 2016, especially after Warren failed to back Bernie in the primary against Hillary, it became clear to me that Bernie is a truer progressive voice. I'm all in for Andrew Yang now, but Bernie would still be my second choice.
 
Last edited:
Oh, so Warren's problem is that she is a pragmatic progressive who understands that sometimes one has to make compromises in the real world to make real progress.
 
Bernie just had a heart attack. If elected, he would be about 7 months short of 80 years old. Both of those facts are or should be deeply concerning no matter how much you admire his positions or the man.

Biden is only a year younger. He’s had serious health problems.

Warren is 8 years younger than Bernie and older than I’d like any POTUS to be in an ideal world. Two observations: Bernie is showing his age very badly, IMO worse than Biden and much worse than Warren. I have grave doubts about either Sanders or Biden being able to serve even half of a term effectively. I really wish thatvwarren were 10 years younger.

Age really really does matter. Trump has always been an arrogant asshole but he hasn’t always seemed as though he has dementia. To get a little distance: Regan was just shy of 70 when he was sworn in. His dementia was obvious to me by his second term, albeit much less obvious than Trump’s mental decline.

Age matters. It matters a great deal. The top three candidates are too old to be able to withstand the rigors of the office. Warren seems to be young for her age and to be the most agile mentally. That matters.

This is separate from whose platform you like the best or who you think would be most effective and even who you think could beat Trump.
 
OK So they won't be able to duck when an assassin gets by security so what. What you'd want to see in a president is a well formed presidential capacity, theory, and record with extensions to the effecting elements in the world around her. It's obvious that Biden has a strong network of competent and knowledgeable persons who share his basic philosophy around him.

So too, does Warren at least in ones with expertise in the machinery of policy. By her lack of significant leaders in the US signing up to endorse her she leaves doubt about whether she will have strong access to proven people who will pull levers to get things done.

Bernies is a stance person with strong creds in social democracy circles. His endorsement circle is pretty small and it tends toward those who advocate rather than legislate.

My sense is Kobashar and Booker will work well with legislators and they do have centerist humanist instincts. Still their records are pretty thing and Kobashar's executive experience is pretty shallow.

Both of the rich guys demonstrate strong administrative background but do those backgrounds translate to being in competent governing people.

A review of presidents between 40 and 50 years old when they came to power leaves only one with a strong social and administrative record, Teddy Roosevelt from a much simpler time. So If you are an ageist, look for someone between 50 and 62-3. This lines up with disruptive leaders in government and industry.

Bottom line take the one who inspires you regardless of age. Be sure she is one who has demonstrated she can bring competent people in to get the business of launching a new era in. Age is not the issue. We're not electing Gandhi, Indians did and then he was assassinated. Still the government succeeded wit Nehru and others of like mind. Presidents select vice presidents. So if both have what it takes, vote for that team that makes your heart go pitty pat. Dismiss age and vote your vision.
 
Bernie just had a heart attack. If elected, he would be about 7 months short of 80 years old. Both of those facts are or should be deeply concerning no matter how much you admire his positions or the man.

Biden is only a year younger. He’s had serious health problems.

Warren is 8 years younger than Bernie and older than I’d like any POTUS to be in an ideal world. Two observations: Bernie is showing his age very badly, IMO worse than Biden and much worse than Warren. I have grave doubts about either Sanders or Biden being able to serve even half of a term effectively. I really wish thatvwarren were 10 years younger.

Age really really does matter. Trump has always been an arrogant asshole but he hasn’t always seemed as though he has dementia. To get a little distance: Regan was just shy of 70 when he was sworn in. His dementia was obvious to me by his second term, albeit much less obvious than Trump’s mental decline.

Age matters. It matters a great deal. The top three candidates are too old to be able to withstand the rigors of the office. Warren seems to be young for her age and to be the most agile mentally. That matters.

This is separate from whose platform you like the best or who you think would be most effective and even who you think could beat Trump.

Bernie is so much better than anyone else running that it's not about him anymore. If he gets elected and drops dead the day after his inauguration, whoever he picks for VP will also be better than anyone else running. It won't change what matters about his candidacy, which is the popular movement it depends on and inspires, not the man himself. The only way Bernie wins is if people come out in droves willing to fight against the bad actors and deep corruption in all levels of our economy and politics. If that happens, Bernie is no longer needed, and he knows this.

He just recovered from a heart attack and remains the most popular politician in the country who just won the endorsement of the second most popular politician in the country, and just broke every campaign rally record in New York yesterday when over 27 thousand people showed up to welcome him back. What we have here is nothing short of a historic opportunity to finally lift the working class and poor out of political irrelevance. Imagine having to tell your great grandchildren that you weren't a part of this movement because you were too focused on his age.
 
Oh, so Warren's problem is that she is a pragmatic progressive who understands that sometimes one has to make compromises in the real world to make real progress.

Her problem is that her idea of progress is centered on talking to capitalism's manager and forcing him to sign a non-binding resolution to be nicer in the future.
 
Nate Silver proves again he can't do math:

View attachment 24410

Looking a little closer...

View attachment 24411

Warren's numbers improved by 2.2, which is the "most", while Sanders' numbers improved by only 2.2, which is "meh"

Notice how despite consistently now coming in 4th or 5th in polls, Yang is yet again not even mentioned in the above text blurb. Yang gets media blackout as bad or worse than Bernie did back in 2016.

Oh, so Warren's problem is that she is a pragmatic progressive who understands that sometimes one has to make compromises in the real world to make real progress.

Her problem is that her idea of progress is centered on talking to capitalism's manager and forcing him to sign a non-binding resolution to be nicer in the future.

I think she'd enact some actual change beyond that. It just wouldn't be much. Bernie being elected would trigger a much greater shift leftward, even if he died moment into his first term as you noted.
 
Oh, so Warren's problem is that she is a pragmatic progressive who understands that sometimes one has to make compromises in the real world to make real progress.

Her problem is that her idea of progress is centered on talking to capitalism's manager and forcing him to sign a non-binding resolution to be nicer in the future.

As opposed to Bernie's idea of progress, which has been to trade his vote for pet project amendments and/or to deliberately submit bills he knows don't have a chance of being implemented in order to "start a conversation" that was already started forty years ago?
 
Oh, so Warren's problem is that she is a pragmatic progressive who understands that sometimes one has to make compromises in the real world to make real progress.

Her problem is that her idea of progress is centered on talking to capitalism's manager and forcing him to sign a non-binding resolution to be nicer in the future.

As opposed to Bernie's idea of progress, which has been to trade his vote for pet project amendments and/or to deliberately submit bills he knows don't have a chance of being implemented in order to "start a conversation" that was already started forty years ago?

Bernie actually made a substantial change in the Democratic Party by running in 2016. Half the candidates are now pushing "medicare for all". He moved the overton window substantially. It remains to be seen is Warren can do that. Yang has shown some early signs of doing it already, as seen by the last debate where UBI was taken seriously and others actually engaged the idea without laughing it off the stage.
 
A Tale of Two Polls Where The Front Runners Are Within The Margin Of Error Of The Runner Up (from CNN):

cnn.jpg

ETA: The headlines from CNN about that poll are too priceless to avoid displaying for posterity

noclear.png
disappointing.png
undecided.png
mess.png

And my personal favorite, which I will have laminated and stored in a glass box for all eternity:

strongfourth.png
 
Bernie actually made a substantial change in the Democratic Party by running in 2016.

No, he didn't. At least not for the positive. Which is why he was soundly rejected and only managed to motivate around 5% of Democrats to actually vote for him.

Half the candidates are now pushing "medicare for all".

Aside from the fact that, once again and for auld lang syne, "medicare for all" is nothing new (Hillary Clinton proposed essentially the same thing first some thirty years ago), it is not "half" of the leading candidates, which directly contradicts your operating assertion.

He moved the overton window substantially.

Horseshit. The Overton Window is in regard to a range that arguments fall upon and that shifts with certain monumental occurrences; i.e., that were never tolerated and now suddenly are. Nothing Bernie has talked about--especially not the idea of taxpayer subsidized, government run healthcare--was never tolerated in our lifetime. That "conversation" has been openly raging for decades, ever since, once again, Hillary Clinton raised it as First Lady. At that time on the Overton scale, it went from acceptable to sensible to popular to policy under Obama, who finally managed to get it into its initial stage.

You are confusing "wokeness" of a coincidental maturing voting generation that just happened to come of age under Obama with a fundamental shift in the national political psyche, which most definitely has not happened due to anything Sanders has regurgitated. No policy he has ever come up with is any radical departure from the standard Democratic party platform that has been in place for at least the past fifty years. The proof is not only in the fact that Sanders has been saying literally the exact same things for his entire congressional career as well, but also in the facts that Ross Perot and Ralph Nader argued for basically the same reforms as Sanders, so his positions are not even as "radical" as someone like Ralph fucking Nader:

Nader campaigned against the pervasiveness of corporate power and spoke on the need for campaign finance reform. His campaign also addressed problems with the two party system, voter fraud, environmental justice, universal healthcare, affordable housing, free education including college, workers' rights and increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. He also focused on the three-strikes rule, exoneration for prisoners for drug related non-violent crimes, legalization of commercial hemp and a shift in tax policies to place the burden more heavily on corporations than on the middle and lower classes. He opposed pollution credits and giveaways of publicly owned assets.

Sound familiar? That was twenty years ago and is itself just a reiteration of standard Democratic platform policies and what Nader had also been arguing since the early nineties. Every single Democratic platform since at least Kennedy has included campaign finance reform, voter fraud, environmental justice, universal healthcare, affordable housing, free education including college, workers' rights and increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. Literally every single one.

Iow, it hasn't been that a window has opened or anything ideological fundamentally shifted; it's been that a bunch of snot-nosed teenagers grew up and said, "Hey, what's this window in the attic doing open? I never was aware we even had this window!"

And that only in a very small percentage compared to their numbers and that only because the little black devices they relentlessly stare into every second of every day got weaponized against them.

It remains to be seen is Warren can do that.

It has nothing to do with her or any candidate and everything to do with incremental changes to existing legislation, i.e., "fixing" what the Republicans fucked over in regard to "Obama care." And that's exactly what is going to happen no matter who beats Trump, because the fact that The Affordable Care Act wasn't utterly destroyed by the Republicans in the Senate--in spite of their big show of seeming to attempt to--means that they continue to support it. That's how it was allowed to exist in the first place; Republicans supported it regardless of what noise they issued out of their asses to make it seem like they did not. That's their modus operandi.

Why you still don't understand that American politics is all about manipulating Republicans into doing good in spite of themselves is a mystery since it's literally right there in your face every day that you have been alive, but at least, unfortunately, you have ample company among some on the left who use politics as their substitute for religion.
 
Last edited:
Yang and Bernie are the only two in the running who can split away a substantial number of Trump voters. Yang has brought other would be Republican voters on board as well, including a number of truckers.

Winning over Republicans to do good is part of the answer yes, but so is mobilizing people on the left to actually come out and vote.

You can start by not calling people "a basket of deplorables" and try to actually win them over, while also pushing hope and change (contrast Obama to Hillary) to mobilize the left.

You tried Hillary Clinton and the corporate Democrats last time and lost in a historic election to an orange idiot. Why not try something that may actually win you the whitehouse?
 
Yang and Bernie are the only two in the running who can split away a substantial number of Trump voters. Yang has brought other would be Republican voters on board as well, including a number of truckers.

Winning over Republicans to do good is part of the answer yes, but so is mobilizing people on the left to actually come out and vote.

You can start by not calling people "a basket of deplorables" and try to actually win them over, while also pushing hope and change (contrast Obama to Hillary) to mobilize the left.

You tried Hillary Clinton and the corporate Democrats last time and lost in a historic election to an orange idiot. Why not try something that may actually win you the whitehouse?

This isn't a thread about Yang, who has unusually bad ideas most of the time and has no function in this race other than to take support from the actual progressive candidate. He's standing in the way of a popular mass movement and offering it a monthly check to sit down and shut up about their structural grievances with the entire political and economic system (provided they give up their welfare benefits in exchange). When push comes to shove, he doesn't support Medicare for All and wants to keep the private insurance industry in existence. Every day that Yang, Gabbard, and Warren stay in the race demonstrates their opportunism taking priority over their so-called progressive ideals. If you support a vision of change in society, you know that it can't proceed unless it's organized and unified. There is no question who the left is mobilizing behind, and chipping away at that coalition is counter to its goals being realized.
 
Yang highlights Bernie's biggest flaw. That he isn't for universal basic income, and instead wants a higher minimum wage for those who can still get jobs (which will be fewer and fewer especially with artificially raised minimum wages) while ignoring those who can't and those who are stay at home parents.

I support Bernie over the others running aside from Yang. Bernie has a lot of good policy ideas and youd be much better off had he been your nominee last time around instead of corporate Hillary, but Bernie does have some flaws and is falling in the polls as Warren has been rising.
 
Yang highlights Bernie's biggest flaw. That he isn't for universal basic income, and instead wants a higher minimum wage for those who can still get jobs (which will be fewer and fewer especially with artificially raised minimum wages) while ignoring those who can't and those who are stay at home parents.
Both critiques of his are disingenuous and reveal that he doesn't understand what working class politics looks like. He knows that there will be a federal jobs guarantee as part of Bernie's economic package, but he doesn't agree with its implementation. He also knows that Bernie supports expanded benefits for stay-at-home parents through a mechanism that already exists: Social Security. What he doesn't say is that instead of slapping a consumption tax on everyone equally, which will hit poorer people harder after already making them choose between UBI and benefits, Bernie would fund it through income and wealth taxes on the most comfortable upper percentiles. In combination with the labor-centered movement that is absolutely necessary to preserve any of these reforms, and which only Bernie has in his corner, there is no reason to flirt with a too-small, means-tested UBI that doesn't address the root of our problems.

I support Bernie over the others running aside from Yang. Bernie has a lot of good policy ideas and youd be much better off had he been your nominee last time around instead of corporate Hillary, but Bernie does have some flaws and is falling in the polls as Warren has been rising.
That's starting to change as of the last two weeks with the endorsements and the last debate.
 
Back
Top Bottom