Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

[Loren Pechtel]

Time and time again, conservative politicians and their pet charlatan economists have shrieked and howled raising minimum wages would create mass unemployment, loss of small businesses and locust plagues etc. But states, and local governments have raised minimum wages.

And the promised unemployment apocalypse has never occurred as loudly squealed about from these morons. That is all.

translation: Though minimum wage increase makes the nation worse off, it's OK because the total damage done is small. It's good to inflict small amounts of damage.

Yes, small amounts of damage are better than large amounts of damage.

But so far, you have not demonstrated that increasing minimum wage does any damage at all.

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa. It did a lot of harm.

Continuing to show that you can't see way below the noise floor proves nothing other than that the "research" isn't credible.

 

[Politesse]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

You are very... honest.... about exactly who you believe occupies the bottom rung of your country's social ladder, and how comfortable you are at the thought of their forced exploitation. The case of American Samoa, where a principal employer left in a huff because the government told them they couldn't use American citizens as effective wage slaves anymore, has the moral, to you, that we should simply allow people to be exploited in the future.

And you wonder why so many people wish to rip this godforsaken system apart?

 

[Juvenal]

It was instituted to keep blacks out of most jobs. Very easy to find on Google:

The Racist History of Minimum Wage Laws | Mises Institute

Historically, minimum wage laws have done a lot to stifle employment among African-Americans. The trend continues today.

mises.org

Just look at the unemployment rate for teens in the inner city, it's still doing it's job of keeping the black man down.

Offering lower wages to blacks is racist and even more effective at keeping the black man down.

What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success. Make sure those at the bottom have no way out. The Republicans are frequently (and quite correctly) accused of this but the left also comes up with ways because the only true route they have to raise wages is to reduce the labor pool.

You posted an apologetic for allowing lower wages based on race and now you're saying I'm missing something? Here's what you're missing. Don't post your racist crap at me and expect I won't call you on your racism.

Don't be a racist.

And then I won't call you out on it.

 

[Juvenal]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.

I've lived in the inner city. Ten years in the Humboldt Park neighborhood in Chicago taught me real lessons about the underclass. Those kids are undereducated, but they're not stupid. Given the choice between gang life and minimum wage, they go with where the money is.

You know fuck all about what you're talking about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nonsense. Provide evidence for your hand waved assertions.

Trying to pretend 2 + 2 doesn't add up to 4 doesn't make the problem go away. Show your math that it can be detected.

Sounds like an argument for God in there Loren.

No--this is a Russell's Teapot situation--and you're accepting a proof it's not there.

And the reality is that in an open marketplace (which low wage workers in cities approximates well enough) that prices will be driven to the optimum point and thus any forcing them away from this will reduce productivity. Basic economics says it must be there, nothing from your side even attempts to actually rebut it. It's just proclamations that it might not happen. Just because it's the price of labor rather than the price of a thing doesn't change the fact the market will maximize the area of the rectangle.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Having less restrictions on employers, allowing them to hire whoever they need at any agreed price, would result in much more income to the lower classes, even though much would be in low-wage jobs. Still the living standard among the poor would greatly increase as lower-level employers would expand and seek more help which they could afford at the lower cost.

Disagree--most workers are not minimum wage.

But when your main concern is venom and hate against employers as a class, then of course you don't really care about doing what's best for the poor and for all consumers and the whole nation. Spewing hate against the scapegoat takes first priority.

Yup, it's about hate, not economics.

 

[ZiprHead]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.

I've lived in the inner city. Ten years in the Humboldt Park neighborhood in Chicago taught me real lessons about the underclass. Those kids are undereducated, but they're not stupid. Given the choice between gang life and minimum wage, they go with where the money is.

You know fuck all about what you're talking about.

I would bet inner city youth have far fewer opportunities for any job. Many businesses just won't operate in those areas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

where the plumbers are paid minimum wage and the hamburger-flippers $50/hour?

Ah yes. The old strawman gambit again. If burger flippers were paid $1 an hour, burgers would be cheap. So let us stimulate demand for burgers by slashing minimum wage for burger flippers to $1 an hour.

The leftist Laffer curve. It's quite clear that if you extend it out far enough the curve is climbing. You take it on faith that the curve is a parabola and we are currently below the minimum. However, your case is even weaker than the Laffer curve because that one at least clearly must have an inflection point, I have never seen anything presented about minimum wage that provides any reason for an inflection point to exist.

What forces cause the inflection point and what evidence is there that we are to the left of it?!

 

[Toni]

Yup, it's about hate, not economics.

Well, you said it.

Some people seem to just feel more comfortable with the idea of some kind of underclass that society doesn’t have to do much for. We can’t blame it on the color of their skin anymore without being called out as racists. So we just use proxies: Some people just lack ambition. Their parents didn’t care enough to get them into good schools. They’re lazy. They have no work ethic. Genetics shows that some people just aren’t that smart.

You know the drill…

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nonsense. Provide evidence for your hand waved assertions.

Trying to pretend 2 + 2 doesn't add up to 4 doesn't make the problem go away. Show your math that it can be detected.

Sounds like an argument for God in there Loren.

No--this is a Russell's Teapot situation--and you're accepting a proof it's not there.

But you are the one making the claim, not others. Some people say that a rise in minimum wage is necessary. You and other conservatives suggested it'd cause unemployment. I don't once remember anyone from the economic conservative side saying the unemployment would be undetectable! And now, it seems like you are arguing in gaps. It is real, we just can't see it. Very much like god.

And the reality is that in an open marketplace (which low wage workers in cities approximates well enough) that prices will be driven to the optimum point and thus any forcing them away from this will reduce productivity. Basic economics says it must be there, nothing from your side even attempts to actually rebut it. It's just proclamations that it might not happen. Just because it's the price of labor rather than the price of a thing doesn't change the fact the market will maximize the area of the rectangle.

I figured that if all companies were required to life the rate, it'd be across the board, costs increase a bit, prices follow, but people aren't making shit an hour. Instead, they'd be making a shit and a half... as again $15 an hour ISN'T ALOT OF MONEY!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In a world where there neither employers and employees have any market power to affect market wages, and all other influences are unchanged, an increase in the minimum wage reduces the amount of labour used. Whether an increase in the minimum wage makes workers as a group better or worse off is an empirical question.

In any other world, whether or not a specific increase in the minimum wage causes a reduction in the amount of labour and reduced production in a specific region is an empirical question. Whether it reduces or improves the standard of living is an empirical question.

What this means is that a particular actual increase in the minimum wage may cause net harm or net benefit depending on the situation and time, regardless of the amount of walks of text you dump on this forum.

In most markets neither is big enough to affect market wages at the low end. You have many employers, you have many workers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wrong. Here is Franklin Roosevelt on the topic:

In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

Just because you like his words doesn't make him magically right.

Minimum wage causes those who can't get hired at minimum wage to starve.

 

[Toni]

Paying people less than a liveable wage also increases costs to society as society steps in to partially ameliorate the ills of poverty. This comes from taxing that ‘everyone else’ that you are sooo concerned about protecting. Of course the wealthy ( individuals and corporations) are able to avoid paying taxes, making them double winners: they save on labor cost and they don’t have to pay what many consider to be their fair share of taxes. A third benefit is creating and maintaining a permanent underclass that has few choices but to continue in the lowest rungs of the work force.

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.

No, minimum wage is a dogwhistle for those who long for the days of…if not actual slavery, then indentured servitude. Those who like to preserve the distinctions between the classes….

You know: The kind who think that they’re somehow better than the people who fix their cars or make or serve their food—who grow their food.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

You are very... honest.... about exactly who you believe occupies the bottom rung of your country's social ladder, and how comfortable you are at the thought of their forced exploitation. The case of American Samoa, where a principal employer left in a huff because the government told them they couldn't use American citizens as effective wage slaves anymore, has the moral, to you, that we should simply allow people to be exploited in the future.

I'm talking about the inner cities because that's where we see the problem at it's worst--and the reality is that it's mostly blacks. This is obviously very old but I'm not having any luck finding recent data:

The Young Face of Inner City Unemployment (Published 1992)

web.archive.org

43.4% unemployment. That's what minimum wage gets you when you dictate something too high.

And the principal employer left because it ceased to be economic do business there. When a company does something like that you don't dismiss it as "in a huff", you treat it as a major alarm that you are way out of line with the market.

And you wonder why so many people wish to rip this godforsaken system apart?

Yeah, a lot of people will delude themselves into thinking cratering the economy is going to be a good thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It was instituted to keep blacks out of most jobs. Very easy to find on Google:

The Racist History of Minimum Wage Laws | Mises Institute

Historically, minimum wage laws have done a lot to stifle employment among African-Americans. The trend continues today.

mises.org

Just look at the unemployment rate for teens in the inner city, it's still doing it's job of keeping the black man down.

Offering lower wages to blacks is racist and even more effective at keeping the black man down.

What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success. Make sure those at the bottom have no way out. The Republicans are frequently (and quite correctly) accused of this but the left also comes up with ways because the only true route they have to raise wages is to reduce the labor pool.

You posted an apologetic for allowing lower wages based on race and now you're saying I'm missing something? Here's what you're missing. Don't post your racist crap at me and expect I won't call you on your racism.

Don't be a racist.

And then I won't call you out on it.

Where did I say anything about wanting a lower minimum wage based on race?! I'm simply pointing to the people that are the biggest victims--showing that it's not just a minor harm. The issue is actually the inner cities, not race, it's just the inner cities are mostly black so that's where the biggest effect falls.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.

I've lived in the inner city. Ten years in the Humboldt Park neighborhood in Chicago taught me real lessons about the underclass. Those kids are undereducated, but they're not stupid. Given the choice between gang life and minimum wage, they go with where the money is.

You know fuck all about what you're talking about.

You miss the point--they don't have a choice because the jobs have been driven out.

 

[bilby]

What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success.

You keep saying this, and it keeps being untrue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nonsense. Provide evidence for your hand waved assertions.

Trying to pretend 2 + 2 doesn't add up to 4 doesn't make the problem go away. Show your math that it can be detected.

Sounds like an argument for God in there Loren.

No--this is a Russell's Teapot situation--and you're accepting a proof it's not there.

But you are the one making the claim, not others. Some people say that a rise in minimum wage is necessary. You and other conservatives suggested it'd cause unemployment. I don't once remember anyone from the economic conservative side saying the unemployment would be undetectable! And now, it seems like you are arguing in gaps. It is real, we just can't see it. Very much like god.

No. Look at the thread--it's about a study that supposedly proved that raising the minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment Russell's Teapot doesn't exist. You're on the side of faith, not me.

And the reality is that in an open marketplace (which low wage workers in cities approximates well enough) that prices will be driven to the optimum point and thus any forcing them away from this will reduce productivity. Basic economics says it must be there, nothing from your side even attempts to actually rebut it. It's just proclamations that it might not happen. Just because it's the price of labor rather than the price of a thing doesn't change the fact the market will maximize the area of the rectangle.

I figured that if all companies were required to life the rate, it'd be across the board, costs increase a bit, prices follow, but people aren't making shit an hour. Instead, they'd be making a shit and a half... as again $15 an hour ISN'T ALOT OF MONEY!

And when the market stabilizes after 50% of inflation (it won't all happen in one year) they're still making shit.

 

[bilby]

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa.

Except it's not a meaningful datapoint in the discussion of minimum wages in a single nation state.

It's a good example of why first world colonial powers shouldn't try to have the same laws apply to their third world colonies as apply at home.

Not even if they're pretending to themselves that they're not a colonial power.

 

[Politesse]

And the principal employer left because it ceased to be economic do business there. When a company does something like that you don't dismiss it as "in a huff", you treat it as a major alarm that you are way out of line with the market

I oppose colonialism, actually, and I'm not ashamed of that. I do not give a shit whether Star Kist is making the maximum possible money this quarter. And I'm not ashamed of that, either. No, I don't think American Samoa is a good economic analogue for, say Seattle, Washington. But even if I did, I would not agree with the proposition that colonialism should be tolerated as long as it can be shown in numbers that it is making money for a tiny oligarchic class in the exploiting empire.

Moreover, I think any American who does value money for a few over liberty for all is stinking traitor. And I'm not ashamed of that.